Why do you think raising the minimum wage is a bad idea?

[Caper]

Even after a fair amount of Googling I could not find the price of a "Happy" "Meal" in Denmark but you could get a junior cheese burger there for 20DKK = ~$3.45USD in September 2012
http://www.travellingmcds.com/2012/09/el-maco-jr-copenhagen-denmark-august.html

US price in 2013, $1.19

Make of this what you will but at least it's not wild hand waving.

According to http://www.minimum-wage.org/international/en/Denmark

AND

Make of that what you will!
​

Double the wages.... Triple the prices. Sounds like a great deal. But I guess Denmark is doing ok.

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Even after a fair amount of Googling I could not find the price of a "Happy" "Meal" in Denmark but you could get a junior cheese burger there for 20DKK = ~$3.45USD in September 2012
http://www.travellingmcds.com/2012/09/el-maco-jr-copenhagen-denmark-august.html

US price in 2013, $1.19

Make of this what you will but at least it's not wild hand waving.

According to http://www.minimum-wage.org/international/en/Denmark

AND

Make of that what you will!
​

There might be some problems with raw numbers when comparing between countries like that (price of raw ingredients, etc.).

 

[a_unique_person]

My own guess is that at $15/hour, there probably would not many McDonalds left. Many of them would face the following choice: raise prices beyond what most people are willing to pay for fast food, or sell hamburgers and fries at a loss. Either way, I don't see how they remain profitable.

McDonalds is not as wildly profitable as you might think:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-...74-outlets-cuts-full-year-profit-outlook.html

Australian mc Donalds have a higher minimum wage and are still profitable

 

[Brainster]

Here's what the New York Times had to say about the minimum wage in 1987:

But there's a virtual consensus among economists that the minimum wage is an idea whose time has passed. Raising the minimum wage by a substantial amount would price working poor people out of the job market. A far better way to help them would be to subsidize their wages or - better yet - help them acquire the skills needed to earn more on their own.

The idea of using a minimum wage to overcome poverty is old, honorable - and fundamentally flawed. It's time to put this hoary debate behind us, and find a better way to improve the lives of people who work very hard for very little.

Of course, they've since unlearned that wisdom.

 

[Mitchell314]

Your dodge didn't work the first time around; what makes you think it would work the second ?

What was your point about inflation, if not as an argument against raising the minimum wage ?

I directly addressed your question. You just didn't like the answer. I did not argue for or against raising minimum wage, just pointing out the well-known economic phenomena that significantly increasing wages on a large class of people can lead pressures driving inflation. I was pointing it out because nobody else addressed it, and it's an important factor in deciding how MW should be set.

I'm starting to get the sense that you were specifically targeting me with your initial post, which is extremely childish and unskeptical to attack somebody's credibility personally based on whether or not they're impoverished.

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Here's what the New York Times had to say about the minimum wage in 1987:





Of course, they've since unlearned that wisdom.

Who is "they"? And an alternative interpretation would be "moved on from an ideological position to one based on facts".

 

[thaiboxerken]

Double the wages.... Triple the prices. Sounds like a great deal. But I guess Denmark is doing ok.

Happiest place in the world, actually.

 

[thaiboxerken]

It's never been more-than-doubled before, as some want, to $15/hr. Current proposal on the table is to increase to $10.10/hour, which would still be a historical 39% increase.

http://www.dol.gov/whd/minwage/chart.htm

Walmart employees already make an average of $8.81/hour.

http://makingchangeatwalmart.org/factsheet/walmart-watch-fact-sheets/fact-sheet-wages/

What will happen if/when the new federally mandated wage goes through? Those already making more than that will get a pay cut to the new minimum wage to "save jobs" and pay for the increased wage for others? Who knows what they'll pull. Don't like it, stop shopping there. I don't.

~Dr. Imago

P.S. Not a "Conservative" either.

More conservative theory supported with no evidence.

 

[uke2se]

Double the wages.... Triple the prices. Sounds like a great deal. But I guess Denmark is doing ok.

Having a mandated minimum wage that is an actual living wage means everyone can afford to pay $3.50 for a cheese burger.

 

[Puppycow]

Is it a bad idea? No.
Long term will it accomplish anything? No.

Why do you say that?

For example, in Australia they raise the minimum wage every year (or almost every year) automatically to keep up with the cost of living. The exception might be if the cost of living did not increase for a whole year, which rarely happens in practice.

The problem in the US is that even if the minimum wage is raised, it soon becomes obsolete due to inflation and the whole process must be repeated at a tremendous waste of time for the legislature.

 

[Dr. Imago]

More conservative theory supported with no evidence.

Point out one spot in that response where what I said is factually incorrect. Or, is your goal just to simply chime in with hollow assertions without adding anything else to the discussion? Don't mistake my speculation for your perceived "theory". That's not demonstrative behavior of a true critical thinker.

~Dr. Imago

 

[Axiom_Blade]

For example, in Australia they raise the minimum wage every year (or almost every year) automatically to keep up with the cost of living. The exception might be if the cost of living did not increase for a whole year, which rarely happens in practice.

The problem in the US is that even if the minimum wage is raised, it soon becomes obsolete due to inflation and the whole process must be repeated at a tremendous waste of time for the legislature.

I think that's the real problem. Politicians have proposed a minimum wage that adjusts itself along with inflation, but so far it hasn't gained much traction. If the minimum wage had kept up with what it was in the '60s, it would be $10.50-$10.75 now.

 

[Aepervius]

It's never been more-than-doubled before, as some want, to $15/hr. Current proposal on the table is to increase to $10.10/hour, which would still be a historical 39% increase.

http://www.dol.gov/whd/minwage/chart.htm

Walmart employees already make an average of $8.81/hour.

http://makingchangeatwalmart.org/factsheet/walmart-watch-fact-sheets/fact-sheet-wages/

What will happen if/when the new federally mandated wage goes through? Those already making more than that will get a pay cut to the new minimum wage to "save jobs" and pay for the increased wage for others? Who knows what they'll pull. Don't like it, stop shopping there. I don't.

~Dr. Imago

P.S. Not a "Conservative" either.

In term of real $ a 40% increase would roughly put the purchasing power of those on minimuk wage back to what it was in the 70ies in today's $ term.

In today's $ , 1968 : 11$ , During the 70ies : around 10$, nominally today roughly about 7$50.

The fact is that if you are on minimum wage, you got poorer and poorer for the last 40 years in the USA.

 

[Dr. Imago]

You know who raising the minimum wage helps most? Part-time 16-19 years-olds whose families already earn three times the annual salary over the poverty level.

“Minimum-wage workers tend to be young. Although workers under age 25 represented only about one-fifth of hourly-paid workers, they made up about half of those paid the Federal minimum wage or less. Among employed teenagers paid by the hour, about 23% earned the minimum wage or less, compared with about 3% of workers age 25 and over.”

http://journalistsresource.org/studies/economics/inequality/the-effects-of-raising-the-minimum-wage#

... finds that only 21.3 percent of the affected workers would be in poor families, while 30.9 percent would be in families with incomes more than three times the poverty line.

http://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/2013/12/the-eitc-is-better-than-minimum-wage.html

You want to end poverty in the U.S., expand the earned income tax credit for families. Raising the minimum wage hasn't historically, and won't now, accomplish that.

~Dr. Imago

 

[Puppycow]

You know who raising the minimum wage helps most? Part-time 16-19 years-olds whose families already earn three times the annual salary over the poverty level.



http://journalistsresource.org/studies/economics/inequality/the-effects-of-raising-the-minimum-wage#



http://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/2013/12/the-eitc-is-better-than-minimum-wage.html

You want to end poverty in the U.S., expand the earned income tax credit for families. Raising the minimum wage hasn't historically, and won't now, accomplish that.

~Dr. Imago

That's not much of an argument really.
First of all, In many countries with higher minimum wages, there are lower wages for teenagers.
http://www.fairwork.gov.au/pay/national-minimum-wage/pages/default.aspx

Actually, I'll just leave it at that. I was going to add that it's not necessarily a problem if some people helped aren't from poor families.

 

[Belz...]

On the other hand.... there is still a tonne of dirt poor.... something that again... never changes.

I don't think anyone is saying that raising the minimum wage is a magical panacea that will solve the problem forever. At best it's a partial and temporary measure. But it doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. Meanwhile there are many other measures that should be undertaken to solve the problem more permanently.

 

[Belz...]

I don't think it will kill an economy. But in the end... If a small business pays out... say 200k in wages.... Where maybe the business owner makes 50 or 60k a year.... At the end of the day he's still going to pay out 200k in wages... Probably just cut hours, or take it from mid level employees wages.... Via not giving them raises.

Increasing his prices isn't an option ?

How does Canada manage with a higher minimum wage ?

 

[Belz...]

I directly addressed your question. You just didn't like the answer.

You DIDN'T answer my question. I asked if your question was because of X, and you answer that, for some unspecified someone, it might be. You knew damn well that this wasn't my question.

I did not argue for or against raising minimum wage, just pointing out the well-known economic phenomena that significantly increasing wages on a large class of people can lead pressures driving inflation.

Everybody knows this.

I'm starting to get the sense that you were specifically targeting me with your initial post, which is extremely childish and unskeptical to attack somebody's credibility personally based on whether or not they're impoverished.

You're getting the sense ? I told you specifically and twice that my question was about you.

It's easy for middle-class people like me (and presumably you) to say we don't want poor people to be paid more because some of our products will cost more for us. But the difference is greater for them, so why not help them out, up to a reasonable point ?

 

[Aepervius]

You know who raising the minimum wage helps most? Part-time 16-19 years-olds whose families already earn three times the annual salary over the poverty level.



http://journalistsresource.org/studies/economics/inequality/the-effects-of-raising-the-minimum-wage#



http://gregmankiw.blogspot.com/2013/12/the-eitc-is-better-than-minimum-wage.html

You want to end poverty in the U.S., expand the earned income tax credit for families. Raising the minimum wage hasn't historically, and won't now, accomplish that.

~Dr. Imago

Why don't you link to official statistic ?

http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2012.pdf

PS: where in your link does it say minimum wage are predominately medium wealth family kids ?

 

[Mitchell314]

You DIDN'T answer my question. I asked if your question was because of X, and you answer that, for some unspecified someone, it might be. You knew damn well that this wasn't my question.



Everybody knows this.



You're getting the sense ? I told you specifically and twice that my question was about you.

It's easy for middle-class people like me (and presumably you) to say we don't want poor people to be paid more because some of our products will cost more for us. But the difference is greater for them, so why not help them out, up to a reasonable point ?

I can't even afford a warm meal everyday, and you DARE attack me for being out of touch? This had nothing to do with me, I was talking about an objective economic principle you can read in a textbook, and then you decide to dishonestly reframe it to me. I knew what you were getting at, but I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, hoping you wouldn't stoop so low. I was wrong.


That's it, if I'm to keep my cool and not get banned, I have to to simply ignore such a trashy attitude. Bye.