Why do you think raising the minimum wage is a bad idea?

[JoeMorgue]

Is it a bad idea? No.
Long term will it accomplish anything? No.

 

[Caper]

I worked at a lab once where they had maybe 10 or so people at the bottom making minimum wage...maybe 50 others employed with the company... The government raised minimum wage... by maybe $1.50..... All that happened was no other employees got a raise that year.

 

[Dr. Imago]

Often the argument against a minimum wage is that it prevents "the market" from working. I hold that having a minimum wage in fact does the opposite - it rectifies a situation in which "the market" fails.

Your comment about the U.K. aside, I think the problem is the David vs. Goliath argument here. It is the tiny individual with no negotiating power who can't get a good wage against the Goliath of the corporation. This isn't necessarily the market failing in as much as it is the failing of a single entity to either "accept what you get or hit the road." In fact, the wage is already currently set at the minimum by the government at $7.25/hour. So, when that person walks in the door, the government has effectively already negotiated their starting salary. That's a big point that is often missed by pro-minimum wage folks. The assumption is that, without it, these people would necessarily be getting less.

It's interesting that a lot of what I'm describing happened over a century ago in this country in mills and factories. What the workers, who finally got fed up with it, did at that time was unionize. Why is it similarly unreasonable at this point to do the same for fast food workers?

Maybe there'll be an "AFFFW" - American Federation of Fast Food Workers - or the like forming. This will solve the problem more quickly than a governmental mandate to raise the minimum wage, which (it is my prediction) will not solve the problem but just make the independent franchisees hire one or two less workers and ask the corporations to jack up the cost of that burger. No more "dollar value menus" or the like.

Now, even if they threaten to unionize, that is more than enough often to have the wage increase. In this way, you don't need the government involved at all. And, everybody wins. Not arbitrarily. And, yes, you'll still probably pay a little more for that burger... which you shouldn't be eating anyway.

~Dr. Imago

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Your comment about the U.K. aside, I think the problem is the David vs. Goliath argument here. It is the tiny individual with no negotiating power who can't get a good wage against the Goliath of the corporation. This isn't necessarily the market failing in as much as it is the failing of a single entity to either "accept what you get or hit the road." In fact, the wage is already currently set at the minimum by the government at $7.25/hour. So, when that person walks in the door, the government has effectively already negotiated their starting salary. That's a big point that is often missed by pro-minimum wage folks. The assumption is that, without it, these people would necessarily be getting less.

It's interesting that a lot of what I'm describing happened over a century ago in this country in mills and factories. What the workers, who finally got fed up with it, did at that time was unionize. Why is it similarly unreasonable at this point to do the same for fast food workers?

Maybe there'll be an "AFFFW" - American Federation of Fast Food Workers - or the like forming. This will solve the problem more quickly than a governmental mandate to raise the minimum wage, which (it is my prediction) will not solve the problem but just make the independent franchisees hire one or two less workers and ask the corporations to jack up the cost of that burger. No more "dollar value menus" or the like.

Now, even if they threaten to unionize, that is more than enough often to have the wage increase. In this way, you don't need the government involved at all. And, everybody wins. Not arbitrarily. And, yes, you'll still probably pay a little more for that burger... which you shouldn't be eating anyway.

~Dr. Imago

If you actually unionize a WallyMart, the company will suddenly find the store is not currently profitable and close it down.

 

[Darat]

For those really interested* in this issue suggestion you have a read of this: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...nimum_wage_Low_Pay_Commission_report_2013.pdf

The evidence we have to date indicates that there no significant impact on employment rates dues to the minimum wage.

ETA: From the above report:

...snip...

In summary, we again conclude that the research in general finds little adverse impact of the
minimum wage on employment. We have now commissioned over 100 research projects
that have covered various aspects of the impact of the National Minimum Wage on the
economy. Metcalf (2008) and Butcher (2012) provide literature reviews of the findings of
much of that research. Both studies concluded that since the introduction of the NMW, the
low paid had received higher than average wage increases but that the research had, in
general, found few adverse effects on aggregate employment; the relative employment
shares of the low-paying sectors; individual employment or unemployment probabilities; or
regional employment or unemployment differences. ...snip...

*Nerds who like the detail! Yeah I read it.

 

[rustypouch]

For those really interested* in this issue suggestion you have a read of this: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...nimum_wage_Low_Pay_Commission_report_2013.pdf

The evidence we have to date indicates that there no significant impact on employment rates dues to the minimum wage.

ETA: From the above report:






*Nerds who like the detail! Yeah I read it.

Here's another view, from the US: http://www.cepr.net/documents/publications/min-wage-2013-02.pdf

 

[quixotecoyote]

Now, even if they threaten to unionize, that is more than enough often to have the wage increase. In this way, you don't need the government involved at all. And, everybody wins. Not arbitrarily. And, yes, you'll still probably pay a little more for that burger... which you shouldn't be eating anyway.

~Dr. Imago

I'd like to see evidence for this, particularly in wal-mart and mcdonald type scenarios.

It doesn't seem to match what's happened over the last few years.

More often they seem to be ignored/fired/bullied into giving up.

Yeah, it's illegal. What're they going to do about it? Call the <snort> Department of Labor?

 

[Dr. Imago]

I'd like to see evidence for this, particularly in wal-mart and mcdonald type scenarios.

I can't speak to Mickey D's or WallMert, but I know for a fact that one of the hospitals I worked at in the past specifically raised the nurses hourly rate by $2/hour when rumor got out that SEIU had been contacted and was going to come-a-knockin'.

This is an anecdote. No, I can't report where. Yes, it did happen. Thankfully. Unionized nurses are among the worst to work with (another personal opinion).

~Dr. Imago

 

[Dissolution]

Don't both Walmart and McDonald's have a history of anti-union action?
Rather than giving out payrises when threatened with such an action they tend to sack people, close stores and even leave entire countries.

 

[Dr. Imago]

Of course, this within the past two months...

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2013/11/18/2962751/nlrb-walmart/

Stay posted.

(And, check me if I'm wrong, but I think WalMart offers far more than minimum wage for most of their entry-level jobs. Again, check me if I'm wrong.)

~Dr. Imago

 

[Caper]

In Denmark McD seems to pay a minimum wage of 110 dkr (20 US-$) an hour.
15, 16 and 17-year-olds get 67 dkr (12 US-$).
Horesta.dk

I bet a happy meal cost about $40.... Though 20 of that is probably tax... And if course the McD's worker making $20 an hour takes home about $5 of that..... Of course I may be exaggerating slightly.

 

[Dr. Imago]

I bet a happy meal cost about $40.... Though 20 of that is probably tax... And if course the McD's worker making $20 an hour takes home about $5 of that..... Of course I may be exaggerating slightly.

No, that's about right. The difference is gonna come from somewhere. That's the point.

~Dr. Imago

 

[Dr. Imago]

More on WellMort...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/15/walmart-complaint_n_4604069.html

~Dr. Imago

 

[Belz...]

Because it's a pointless question? There are many, many, many people. Naturally there would be somebody in the world who meets your criteria.

Your dodge didn't work the first time around; what makes you think it would work the second ?

What was your point about inflation, if not as an argument against raising the minimum wage ?

 

[Belz...]

You mean your two-sentence post?

Yeah, it's pretty sad that you managed to miss the second sentence of a two-sentence post.

I think you're trying to make a value-judgment on profit.

No, again you missed the opportunity to re-read the post in question.

There is no "expense at everything else".

Of course there is. You can treat your clients nicely, pay your employees a decent wage, make sure your products and services are of good quality, and still make very good profits.

A business's - a publicly-traded company - purpose and primary responsibility is to its shareholders, not its employees.

Which is exactly what I call a "problem".

I think you're mistaking greed with fiduciary responsibility

No, I'm not. I'm well aware of this responsibility. I'm saying that doing so is "bad".

 

[Axiom_Blade]

Assume your business and your money; see why not?

Samantha's skills would be worth more in a job market where the minimum wage is higher. I see it as a rising tide raising all boats. I don't think it'd be uniform across the board, of course, but I believe if you're making $15 an hour and have a degree, when the minimum wage goes up to $15, your job will soon become worth >$15.

Also, with more money in workers' pockets, it could be a boost to the economy.

 

[mikado]

I don't know about your price comments? not buying Maccas regularly I can't comment, but what I DO Ibu occasionally is breakfast, an egg and bacon muffin, large Jo,and two hash browns costs $9.30. what's that like for comparison ?

 

[Dr. Imago]

Yeah, it's pretty sad that you managed to miss the second sentence of a two-sentence post.

As for the snark, rest-assured that I read your full post and responded accordingly. The first time.

With regards to the rest of your post, this isn't socialism (which it appears to me that you're somehow advocating). Perhaps that's a problem for you. I've outlined at least one remedy - unionize. Another remedy is simply not working for that company. Eventually wages will adjust themselves to attract qualified employees. A third solution is increase your desirability (education, training, etc.) as a potential employee and your offered wage will increase accordingly. A fourth option is to seek out and work for a company that shows that level of corporate responsibility, like Costco or Starbucks, and try to gain employment with them.

I didn't create the system. It's also not a new one. But, it usually sorts itself out in the long run provided the playing field is level and the cheaters and short-cut artists are held accountable. That's governments role. More government intervention, in this case in the form of a mandated wage, usually turns out to be a less than ideal solution with many unforeseen and unintended consequences (retail prices raised with net-zero lifestyle gains to the affected employee, loss of jobs, etc.).

~Dr. Imago

 

[Dissolution]

I've outlined at least one remedy - unionize.

You've also outlined various reasons why this isn't even an option.

 

[a_unique_person]

However, this argument seems to be good for convincing some people, and Milton Friedman is a renowned economist, so...what am I missing here? Can anybody explain this to me?

Milton Friedman is a one trick pony who has been done the same trick for 50 years now. The idea that the 'market' has god like powers to make everything work is inane.