Why do we coddle small businesses?

[ponderingturtle]

Well, as far as I'm concerned, I don't have a problem with large businesses. I have a problem with corrupt or amoral businesses, which tend to be mega corporations. I also dislike how corporations are treated in law, but that isn't a problem with the business itself.

I am not sure about that, it is just that the corrupt and amoral small businesses don't make the news. I would expect a lot more employee rights violations in small business than big business for example.

 

[Beerina]

Maybe some on "the left" want a bigger government precisely so it can offer things that businesses can't? So everyone can have them, and not just some who are employed by generous large companies?

Perhaps, but that's not coddling small businesses, the topic of the thread. What you (and another) in this thread are talking about is manhandling small businesses against their will, not going along with what they want.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Perhaps, but that's not coddling small businesses, the topic of the thread. What you (and another) in this thread are talking about is manhandling small businesses against their will, not going along with what they want.

I was responding to your sudden attack upon "the Left", and the rather sweeping assertions made therein. If you wished to keep the thread confined to small businesses, why did you attack half the political spectrum about what you perceive their attitude towards large businesses to be?

 

[Cleon]

"Small business" covers a rather large spectrum of different types of businesses, and it all depends on what your needs (and wants) are. When I go shopping for clothes, I find that the "big boxes" tend to have a better selection of my sizes for better prices than smaller shops.

At the same time, if I want a decent meal...Well, I don't think it's a coincidence that there aren't a whole lot of 4 and 5-star chain restaurants. Those sorts of establishments typically only have one (or perhaps two) locations. If you want ethnic food, 99% of the time you're going to be going to a "small business." Yeah, there's Panda Express, but that's the Taco Bell of Chinese food. And for people who like Indian, Korean, Russian, Vietnamese, Ethiopian, or whatever - they're all small businesses. There's no such thing as McPho.

Then there are non-consumer-oriented businesses, like IT consulting. Yeah, you can hire IBM to create your website, but it will cost you an order of magnitude more than going through a smaller, more specialized firm (who will likely do a much better job).

When it comes to music, it's much a matter of preference. It seems to be a wash to me; Guitar Center has a better selection than my usual music store, but the prices aren't much different and the staff is generally unhelpful and kinda rude. My local store has the strings and stuff I buy regularly at the same prices, so I might as well go there rather than drive the extra 10 miles to the nearest GC. (I did, however, really like GC's competitor Mars Music, and I'm sorry they're gone.)

"Small business" vs. "big business" depends on your preferences, your needs, and the type of industry involved, among other factors. I don't much see the point in generalizing about one versus the other.

 

[fitzgibbon]

And so once was Wal-Mart. Another aspect of these anti-big box laws is they seem to be punishing success.

Success? No. Excess? Yes.

The problem with any enterprise the size of Walmart is that it imposes its demands and expectations on other, smaller businesses to the point of forcing a net exportation of manufacturing jobs. All this in order to save a nickel. At what point does it become counter-intuitive to offshore jobs if you can't simultaneously offshore the people whose jobs you're offshoring?

I mean at what point do we stop calling it a Mom & Pop business and start calling it "bad scary big business?"

At the point where it can shutter the formerly-vibrant downtown by setting-up shop just outside the town's limits. Saw it happen in Sault Ste. Marie, MI. Nice place. Walmart opened up beyond the town line. Lots of "For Lease" and "For Sale" signs sprouted up downtown.

 

[defaultdotxbe]

At the point where it can shutter the formerly-vibrant downtown by setting-up shop just outside the town's limits. Saw it happen in Sault Ste. Marie, MI. Nice place. Walmart opened up beyond the town line. Lots of "For Lease" and "For Sale" signs sprouted up downtown.

to me this doesnt illustrate a problem with big box retailers, but it illustrates the hypocrisy of the small business proponents

if they didnt want a walmart in their town, why did they shop there when one opened? thats why walmart tries to get around the laws intended to shut them out, they know people will shop there, they dont twist your arm or put a gun to your head, so how is it walmarts fault people stop patronizing locally owned businesses?

if the people sault ste marie didnt want the walmart then they shouldnt have shopped there to the point of driving the small businesses to close, if they had done that it would have been walmart with the "For Lease" sign up

 

[Travis]

Well, as far as I'm concerned, I don't have a problem with large businesses. I have a problem with corrupt or amoral businesses, which tend to be mega corporations. I also dislike how corporations are treated in law, but that isn't a problem with the business itself.

I have seen lots of corruption and amoral activities in small business. On the other hand I once worked for Charter Communications and it seemed pretty clean.

Travis, you really need to move to a larger place.

They passed anti-big box laws in Chicago.....that's a pretty big place. Just how big do I need to go before I can get away from people worshiping small business?

Success? No. Excess? Yes.

The problem with any enterprise the size of Walmart is that it imposes its demands and expectations on other, smaller businesses to the point of forcing a net exportation of manufacturing jobs. All this in order to save a nickel. At what point does it become counter-intuitive to offshore jobs if you can't simultaneously offshore the people whose jobs you're offshoring?

I hardly see how that issue is addressed by keeping all retail stores above a certain floor size from building.

At the point where it can shutter the formerly-vibrant downtown by setting-up shop just outside the town's limits. Saw it happen in Sault Ste. Marie, MI. Nice place. Walmart opened up beyond the town line. Lots of "For Lease" and "For Sale" signs sprouted up downtown.

Why should we institute laws to keep a downtown "vibrant." Seems to me it's vibrancy will depend on whether or not people think it's worth to go there. And if they don't think it's worth it....why force them?

 

[TragicMonkey]

I think if a small business wants to be taken seriously it shouldn't employ half the relatives of the owner, who then do not do any work but still get paid.

 

[Foolmewunz]

As the years go by and I observe more and more of how people run businesses, I'm agreeing more and more with "Dilbert". People really are promoted to their level of incompetence. <snip>

Apparently Dilbert is the new Pogo. (Dilbert now gets credit for all the stuff we used to give Pogo credit for in the 60s and 70s. Anything erudite, and it was, "Yeah, man, Pogo said that years ago.")

The Peter Principle was written before there was a Dilbert.

http://money.howstuffworks.com/peter-principle.htm

 

[fitzgibbon]

to me this doesnt illustrate a problem with big box retailers, but it illustrates the hypocrisy of the small business proponents

if they didnt want a walmart in their town, why did they shop there when one opened?

I can't speak for them but this being the early '90s, I don't think anyone ever considered that downtown would functionally shutter. The appeal was saving a couple of bucks here and there and devil take the hindmost.

thats why walmart tries to get around the laws intended to shut them out, they know people will shop there, they dont twist your arm or put a gun to your head, so how is it walmarts fault people stop patronizing locally owned businesses?

I'm not blaming Walmart per sé but rather the myopic mindset that it appeals to. It's that mindset that is forcing off-shoring of manufacturing jobs that would otherwise be paying a decent wage which in turn forces former manufacturing employees to end up shopping at Walmart.

And around it goes. At some point, there has to be some equilibrium in the system.

if the people sault ste marie didnt want the walmart then they shouldnt have shopped there to the point of driving the small businesses to close, if they had done that it would have been walmart with the "For Lease" sign up

Having not been back there since the mid-'90s, I can't say whether the downtown area has reinvented itself or not. I think the intention was to try to appeal to the tourist trade but 9/11 would've put a real spike through that.

 

[fitzgibbon]

Why should we institute laws to keep a downtown "vibrant." Seems to me it's vibrancy will depend on whether or not people think it's worth to go there. And if they don't think it's worth it....why force them?

I'm more commenting on the myopic viewpoint that doesn't consider that small actions repeated many times can have collateral impacts. Whether that's changed in the 15 years since I was last there, I don't know. I hope so but who can say?

 

[Darth Rotor]

Because Apple and Microsoft and Intel were once small businesses.

And so once was Wal-Mart. Another aspect of these anti-big box laws is they seem to be punishing success. I mean at what point do we stop calling it a Mom & Pop business and start calling it "bad scary big business?"

Way to miss the point.

See Cleon's subsequent post.

DR

 

[defaultdotxbe]

I can't speak for them but this being the early '90s, I don't think anyone ever considered that downtown would functionally shutter. The appeal was saving a couple of bucks here and there and devil take the hindmost.

well in the early 90s i can forgive the lack of forsight, but the fact is the same scenario still plays out today, people say walmart will kill small businesses, walmart opens, aforementioned people shop at walmart instead of the local businesses, and in a self fulfilling prophesy, the small businesses close

I'm not blaming Walmart per sé but rather the myopic mindset that it appeals to. It's that mindset that is forcing off-shoring of manufacturing jobs that would otherwise be paying a decent wage which in turn forces former manufacturing employees to end up shopping at Walmart.

And around it goes. At some point, there has to be some equilibrium in the system.

well it seems we are largely on the same page, like small businesses big box retailers depend on their customers to stay in business

but i think manufacturing workers are also responsible for a lot of jobs being sent offshore too though, especially in the automotive sector, those guys get paid 25 dollars an hour for what is essentially unskilled labor, then wonder why their jobs get outsourced to mexico. the problem is they want to get paid like tradesmen, when working an assembly line is NOT a trade, but anyway thats a rant for another day



as far as legislation to keep big box retailer out of your town, i just dont like laws like that because it seems like saying "walmart cant operate here because its bad for the community" doesnt seem too far off from "black people cant live here because its bad for the community" and we've been there before

 

[fitzgibbon]

well in the early 90s i can forgive the lack of forsight, but the fact is the same scenario still plays out today, people say walmart will kill small businesses, walmart opens, aforementioned people shop at walmart instead of the local businesses, and in a self fulfilling prophesy, the small businesses close

Sorry but your logic escapes me. In the '90s, without the benefit of "self fulfilling prophesy" small city downtowns got obliterated by Walmart. But now that we know it happens, it's qualified as "self fulfilling prophesy"? Why the change?

but i think manufacturing workers are also responsible for a lot of jobs being sent offshore too though, especially in the automotive sector, those guys get paid 25 dollars an hour for what is essentially unskilled labor, then wonder why their jobs get outsourced to mexico. the problem is they want to get paid like tradesmen, when working an assembly line is NOT a trade, but anyway thats a rant for another day

Call me old school but I think there has to be a middle class that can afford to buy things if you expect the economy to grow. Offshore the jobs (whatever they might be) and you don't have the driver (pardon the pun) to grow your national economy.

as far as legislation to keep big box retailer out of your town, i just dont like laws like that because it seems like saying "walmart cant operate here because its bad for the community" doesnt seem too far off from "black people cant live here because its bad for the community" and we've been there before

Oh please.

That's just so far out there as to not warrant a response.

 

[mikeyx]

Sorry but your logic escapes me. In the '90s, without the benefit of "self fulfilling prophesy" small city downtowns got obliterated by Walmart. But now that we know it happens, it's qualified as "self fulfilling prophesy"? Why the change?



Call me old school but I think there has to be a middle class that can afford to buy things if you expect the economy to grow. Offshore the jobs (whatever they might be) and you don't have the driver (pardon the pun) to grow your national economy.



Oh please.

That's just so far out there as to not warrant a response.

Blah blah blah,

the difference between big and small business is that big biz has some check and balances, having working for fewer smaller ones, they seem like they are run by micromanaging psychopaths or scumbags.

 

[defaultdotxbe]

Sorry but your logic escapes me. In the '90s, without the benefit of "self fulfilling prophesy" small city downtowns got obliterated by Walmart. But now that we know it happens, it's qualified as "self fulfilling prophesy"? Why the change?

the people who say "big box retail destroys small business" are the same ones who shop at the big box stores rather than small businesses, thus causing the small businesses to close

Call me old school but I think there has to be a middle class that can afford to buy things if you expect the economy to grow. Offshore the jobs (whatever they might be) and you don't have the driver (pardon the pun) to grow your national economy.

and keeping prices high at low-volume small businesses is the best way to assure a middle class that can afford things?

Oh please.

That's just so far out there as to not warrant a response.

in other words you have no response

 

[fitzgibbon]

the people who say "big box retail destroys small business" are the same ones who shop at the big box stores rather than small businesses, thus causing the small businesses to close

Pitbulls are dogs. All dogs are pitbulls. Thanks for playing.

and keeping prices high at low-volume small businesses is the best way to assure a middle class that can afford things?

Goodness! Volume at low margin = happiness. Thanks for sharing the equation to happiness.

as far as legislation to keep big box retailer out of your town, i just dont like laws like that because it seems like saying "walmart cant operate here because its bad for the community" doesnt seem too far off from "black people cant live here because its bad for the community" and we've been there before

Oh please.

That's just so far out there as to not warrant a response.

in other words you have no response

That would make it past the autocensor? No. Not really. If you really can't parse the difference betwixt zoning bylaws and racism, there's precious little I can do to bring you to understanding.

 

[eeyore1954]

Originally Posted by defaultdotxbe
and keeping prices high at low-volume small businesses is the best way to assure a middle class that can afford things?


Goodness! Volume at low margin = happiness. Thanks for sharing the equation to happiness.

Where did you get low margin = happiness?

low volume/high price is not equal to affordability

 

[defaultdotxbe]

That would make it past the autocensor? No. Not really. If you really can't parse the difference betwixt zoning bylaws and racism, there's precious little I can do to bring you to understanding.

ok, so lets replace the racism with something else

"republicans are bad for the community, so they shouldnt be allowed to hold office"

"walmart shoppers are bad for the community so they shouldnt be allowed to live here (after all, without walmart shoppers there can be no walmart"


someone made a point about equivocation earlier, something involving dogs and pit bulls, do you remember the one? the point is you feel people are making the wrong choices (choosing big box over small business) so therefore legislation must be passed to make them change their minds, its subjective, just like racism

 

[Manopolus]

hmm... sounds like wine country.