Why do Christians believe Jesus was God himself?

[Weak Kitten]

Leumas may have a bit of an axe to grind (or perhaps an entire lumberjack camp of them) but he is very well versed in the history of the Christian church. The decision to declare the trinity to be cannon and to make Jesus one and the same with the nameless deity was a compromise made to keep the Eastern and Western halves of the Church from splitting up. It didn't work but the historic decision was never rescinded.

There are actually quite a few good books that cover this decision. I have read a couple that touch on it as part of the greater history of that era but I have yet to read the one Leumas is recommending. I probably should put aside some time for it since I really do respect Leumas' knowledge on this subject.

 

[Tricky]

To answer the OP, "Because the Bible says so". At least, it does in certain places. In other places, Jesus describes himself as the "son of man". So pick the part of the Bible you want to believe. It accomodates so much variety of belief that there are dozens or maybe hundreds of different denominations, each believing different, sometimes vastly different, things yet each claiming they are based on the Bible.

 

[tsig]

Are you a bot? Your post has nothing to do with what I said. I was simply correcting the original post.

In case you truly didn't understand it: Christians don't believe that Jesus was just some guy that lived and died in the past. The resurrection and ascension mean that he is present in the here and now, hence we believe he is God, not was God.

Same god that killed off the whole world less eight?

 

[Complexity]

Are you a bot? Your post has nothing to do with what I said. I was simply correcting the original post.

In case you truly didn't understand it: Christians don't believe that Jesus was just some guy that lived and died in the past. The resurrection and ascension mean that he is present in the here and now, hence we believe he is God, not was God.

Oh, I'm fully aware of what christians believe.

The 'nonsense' was my reaction to their beliefs and to your 'correction'.

If you have religious beliefs, you ought to be ashamed of yourself and wash them off.

 

[Peterson]

Same god that killed off the whole world less eight?

Yes, the same God that the story is about. I don't necessarily believe it's based on actual events.

 

[Brainache]

Yes, the same God that the story is about. I don't necessarily believe it's based on actual events.

But you necessarily believe that it's based on an actual god?

An actual god about whom such terrible stories were told?

An actual god who became human in order to save us from the terrible wrath of... um... god...?

 

[Leumas]

That one is found only in the King James Version of the Bible, and it's universally recognized to have been added in the middle ages. Most Christians in the US use more modern versions of the Bible, like the NIV or RSV, which don't have that "these three are one" thing.

Firstly - You are ignoring all the other verses from John.

Secondly - That is not the impression I get.... EVERY SINGLE TIME I talk to a christian they DEMAND that any quotation has to be from the KJV or they would not even begin to look at it.

Actually most, after I show them the KJV and they are cornered, resort to the demand of the original Greek and Hebrew despite actually not being able to read or understand MODERN Greek or Hebrew let alone ANCIENT Greek and Hebrew in which the bible was written and lost and rewritten numerous times.

Thirdly - Have a look at the verses and see that in fact they all imply a TRINITY…. They just give them different names. They also seem to imply that Jesus is AMALGAMATED as part of the three.

Fourthly - if you go by the others it seems to me PAGANISM and that there are THREE GODS. So in fact if you go by the others you then have to admit that Christianity is a PAGAN POLYTHEISTIC religion.

Fifthly - What NONSENSE is the whole thing…. What has water and blood got to do with testifying? Can water speak? Can blood testify?

So I think the meaning here is quite clear…. Jesus who is the water and blood and OF the spirit is also one of the trinity…. Spirit, Jesus, God.


Here are the verses… read them and compare.

KJV 1 John 5

6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.​

NIV 1 John 5

6 This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7 For there are three that testify: 8 the[a] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.​

NRSB 1 John 5

6 This is the one who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ, not with the water only, but with the water the blood. And the Spirit is the one that testifies, for the Spirit is the truth. 7 There are three that testify: 8 the Spirit and the water and the blood, and the three agree.​

NASB 1 John 5

This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7 For there are three that testify: 8 the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement​

 

[Leumas]

Leumas may have a bit of an axe to grind (or perhaps an entire lumberjack camp of them) but he is very well versed in the history of the Christian church. The decision to declare the trinity to be cannon and to make Jesus one and the same with the nameless deity was a compromise made to keep the Eastern and Western halves of the Church from splitting up. It didn't work but the historic decision was never rescinded.

There are actually quite a few good books that cover this decision. I have read a couple that touch on it as part of the greater history of that era but I have yet to read the one Leumas is recommending. I probably should put aside some time for it since I really do respect Leumas' knowledge on this subject.

Yes... you ought to read the book because it is an amazing history and you will really enjoy it.


BUT...BUT.... I really do not have any ax to grind at all. I just go to Wall Mart or Home Depot and buy all the lumber I need already cut.

I am a passionate guy that is all. And I am passionate against the STUPIDITY of humanity around me.

I just cannot believe that humans in the 21st century with all that we have achieved and all the science around us and all the evidence and the BENEFITS we draw from this science on HOURLY basis, STILL can hold a myth created by ignorant benighted people seeking after power and control over an even more ignorant and benighted peasantry, as in any way relevant to reality and life today.

It really BOGGLES my mind how any human being can be so UTTERLY stupid so as to believe in this twaddle and HUCKSTERISM.

Even more unforgivable is the fact that THEY CAN READ and have EASILY available all the reading material they need to find out the truth.

EVEN IF we ignore all the science around us ..... EVEN IF we utterly disregard anything to do with the knowledge of what we have today and history..... all one has to do is read the Bible to find that it is the most MORALLY ABHORRENT piece of excrement ever written.

Forget science..... forget the facts around us and history..... just consider the morality of today...... how can any person who is A NORMAL MORAL PERSON who is not a PSYCHOPATH, read the bible and still hold to it in any way as not utterly REPUGNANT.

That is what I am passionate about...... that humanity is SO DARNED RETARDED..... and if there is an ax to wield despite me being the most lazy guy ever, it would be trying to CUT DOWN THE UTTER IMBECILITY and MORAL VITIATION that the execrable Bible and its plagiary the Quran and all religions in general, have and still are wreaking upon humanity.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Besides the reference in John, there are passages in Revelation, wherein God is described as the alpha and the omega, and later the Lamb describes Himself as the alpha and the omega.

See:
Revelation 1:8
Revelation 21:6
Revelation 22:13

Most Christians, but not all, consider God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit (Holy Ghost) to be one and the same, although each is experienced differently.

One way to illustrate this, though it is probably theological Swiss Cheese, is to consider "was, is, shall be" time concepts, and bind them to OT, NT, and the lived life of Christ's Church (all of those who have followed him since) in this order:

The God experience predominates in the OT framework, the Jesus experience in the time recorded in the Gospels, and the Holy Spirit experience pretty much ever since. To a certain extent, that means that the Holy Spirit acts as the bridge back through time into the Jesus and God experience. Typically, God is considered to be unbound by time, so that's within the remit of being the Holy Ghost. Human beings, bound by time whilst in the flesh, thus need a divine agent to connect to the first two elements of the Trinity. (You can look up doxology if you like ...)

For those that don't go for the Trinity (JW's and some others) that experiential analogy doesn't fit into their particular box.

But Tricky has the pithy answer right: because it's in the Bible.

 

[Darth Rotor]

That is what I am passionate about...... that humanity is SO DARNED RETARDED.....

And you, being human, are in fine company.

 

[Brainache]

...
The God experience predominates in the OT framework, the Jesus experience in the time recorded in the Gospels, and the Holy Spirit experience pretty much ever since. To a certain extent, that means that the Holy Spirit acts as the bridge back through time into the Jesus and God experience. Typically, God is considered to be unbound by time, so that's within the remit of being the Holy Ghost.
...

So... If we reconfigure the forward phaser array to emit a Tachyon pulse of the correct frequency, we could disrupt this temporal link and end his evil dominion forever...

Make it so Mr Data...

Have I watched too much TNG lately?

 

[Leumas]

So... If we reconfigure the forward phaser array to emit a Tachyon pulse of the correct frequency, we could disrupt this temporal link and end his evil dominion forever...

Make it so Mr Data...

Have I watched too much TNG lately?

 

[Composer]

Bizarre christian beliefs!

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. (John 14:12) KJV Story book

How can mere mortals do ' greater miracles etc. ' than the so called christian alleged Fully god(man)?

 

[Composer]

jesus = father xmas!

Are you a bot? Your post has nothing to do with what I said. I was simply correcting the original post.

In case you truly didn't understand it: Christians don't believe that Jesus was just some guy that lived and died in the past. The resurrection and ascension mean that he is present in the here and now, hence we believe he is God, not was God.

The former Bishop of Woolwich, Dr. Robinson, in his book, "Honest to God," in a passage where he was explaining how most Christians view Jesus:"Jesus was not a man born and bred, he was God for a limited period taking part in a charade. He looked like a man, but underneath he was God dressed up - like Father Christmas." (Extract from: a_hayward/come_down/comedownfromheaven.htm#4)

 

[pakeha]

That's the one. Ehrman's the only critic I've known to point out that the Fourth Gospel -- the last-written of the four canonical gospels -- is the only one to speak of Jesus as divine.

Thanks for pointing that out! I can't help noticing that no Christian poster has contradicted that statement.

Have I watched too much TNG lately?

I call oxymoron!

 

[DC]

Correction to the thread title: Christians believe that Jesus IS God Himself.

oh i stand corrected.

 

[DC]

Besides the reference in John, there are passages in Revelation, wherein God is described as the alpha and the omega, and later the Lamb describes Himself as the alpha and the omega.

See:
Revelation 1:8
Revelation 21:6
Revelation 22:13

Most Christians, but not all, consider God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit (Holy Ghost) to be one and the same, although each is experienced differently.

One way to illustrate this, though it is probably theological Swiss Cheese, is to consider "was, is, shall be" time concepts, and bind them to OT, NT, and the lived life of Christ's Church (all of those who have followed him since) in this order:

The God experience predominates in the OT framework, the Jesus experience in the time recorded in the Gospels, and the Holy Spirit experience pretty much ever since. To a certain extent, that means that the Holy Spirit acts as the bridge back through time into the Jesus and God experience. Typically, God is considered to be unbound by time, so that's within the remit of being the Holy Ghost. Human beings, bound by time whilst in the flesh, thus need a divine agent to connect to the first two elements of the Trinity. (You can look up doxology if you like ...)

For those that don't go for the Trinity (JW's and some others) that experiential analogy doesn't fit into their particular box.

But Tricky has the pithy answer right: because it's in the Bible.

thanks

 

[catsmate]

The former Bishop of Woolwich, Dr. Robinson, in his book, "Honest to God," in a passage where he was explaining how most Christians view Jesus:"Jesus was not a man born and bred, he was God for a limited period taking part in a charade. He looked like a man, but underneath he was God dressed up - like Father Christmas." (Extract from: a_hayward/come_down/comedownfromheaven.htm#4)

Fairly common practice for gods of the time and place, earthly avatars abounded.

 

[DOC]

yeah i know, not all Christians believe that, i choosed the title because of another topic on another religion, where some people fail to see that also in Islam there are different interpretations and beliefs.

But seriously, i sometimes see that some Christians belief that Jesus was YHWH himself. but the bible clearly states he is the son of God.
where did they get the idea that Jesus is YHWH?

John 14 verse 7 (Jesus speaking)

If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.

John 14 verses 8,9

Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me?

 

[Akhenaten]



Christianity? Not so much.