Why did the 9-11 Truth Movement fail?

[beachnut]

Dope, is it cool letting drugs “expand” your mind? but drugs turn out to be like other things in life, something you are doing when you could be doing something else. In the case of 9/11, finding evidence to support idiotic ideas. When not finding evidence, not drooping idiotic ideas for rational thought.

Failure to ask real experts to ask the dumb question to, instead of 9/11 truth experts in woo and lies.

Using hearsay as evidence; not a good idea unless the person talking trash has some evidence to go with what sounds too good to be true.

Using cold fusion physicist as your thermite expert when he made it up and then clearly tries to back it in to a scenario he never defines.

Beam weapon and elves.

Fetzer logic, what I say is true is truth.

Trusting any NAZI like propaganda named group using the word “truth”. Red Flags should go up with a name including “truth”.

Alex Jones

Dylan Avery fictional film, he even told everyone it was; then he erased the truth. Irony.

Charlie Sheen said a plane couldn’t do a simple turn.

Bias against others!

Common sense -

"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen." - Albert Einstein

 

[Childlike Empress]

You are correct and I now see that this indictment of UBL by Spain is unsound.

Having seen and read your links my opinion of this indictment has changed. It is easy to take things at face value and not look beyond what is presented but in this instance it is an eye opener to be shown what lies beyond.

This is not to say I do not believe for a moment that UBL was not involved in the events of sept 11th but I will say the reaction from Spain and this indictment is questionable to say the least.

It is easy to be dogmatic in our beliefs and easy to be take things at face value without actually looking beyond it. To this end CE is correct and has presented compelling evidence through her links to cast doubt on this indictment.I like to think of myself as a skeptic, rather than a debunker or a truther.I am more than willing to accept fact, evidence and logic when it is presented. This as been presented by CE. As such, unless it is shown to be false, I will gladly accept it.This does not make me no planer or believer of any other irrational conspiracies.

But being a grumpy old git, it is rare my opinion changes on any issues but on this one, my opinion has changed.

Big up!

 

[beachnut]

off topic posts on tangential subjects, or worse

 

[JihadJane]

My understanding of why JJ brings this up is that she believes that the fact that KSM was tortured into divulging info and that info obtained via torture can be very unreliable, is proof of gov't complicity in the events of 9/11.

That would be a leap of intuition that simply cannot be supported by logic.

I brought it up in response to what Confuseling said, in very big letters, in post #48:

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/23663480c30ce6bebb.jpg[/qimg]

I interpreted this to be suggesting that Confuseling believes that the 911 attacks have been thoroughly investigated. Ha ha! The Commission's use "information" derived from the edited transcripts of CIA interrogations is just one illustration of why the 911 Commission had zero chance of investigating, let alone uncovering, any US complicity in the attacks.

Why is being a real terrorist and a real patsy considered incompatible? Why should being a patsy protect a patsy from harm? Patsies are expendable.

Torture can be used to extract information. It can also be used to fabricate information by encouraging the victim to tell lies.

 

[DavidJames]

Torture can be used to extract information. It can also be used to fabricate information by encouraging the victim to tell lies.

Are you suggesting most of the 9/11 CTists are being tortured?

 

[jaydeehess]

I brought it up in response to what Confuseling said, in very big letters, in post #48:



I interpreted this to be suggesting that Confuseling believes that the 911 attacks have been thoroughly investigated. Ha ha! The Commission's use "information" derived from the edited transcripts of CIA interrogations is just one illustration of why the 911 Commission had zero chance of investigating, let alone uncovering, any US complicity in the attacks.

Why is being a real terrorist and a real patsy considered incompatible? Why should being a patsy protect a patsy from harm? Patsies are expendable.

Torture can be used to extract information. It can also be used to fabricate information by encouraging the victim to tell lies.

,,, and I asked a couple of times how the torture of KSM would illustrate at all the veracity of claims of no-planes, thermite, bombs in the buildings , Pentagon fly-overs, 'planted' FDR's etc.

RI's one word retort goes no where in the direction of answering my query in the post he quoted.

Perhaps the fact that CE is more comfortable using the English language than is RI will allow her to comment on it.

Here's a starter;
There are a few different ways this went down
1) a terrorist organization that is peeved at the west for interference in the areas they consider holy, arranged a suicide hijacking of 4 flights and caused the death and destruction on 9/11/01

2) a terrorist organization was formed by or infiltrated by, and thus directed by, an element of the CIA(or insert another agency or shadow gov't) to carry out a suicide hijacking of 4 flights and caused the death and destruction on 9/11/01

3) a terrorist organization was formed by or infiltrated and thus directed by an element of the CIA(or insert another agency or shadow gov't) to carry out a suicide hijacking of 4 flights, which combined with several on site aids such as thermite on the columns of structures, and caused the death and destruction on 9/11/01

4) a terrorist organization was formed strictly on paper(it never really existed) by an element of the CIA(or insert another agency or shadow gov't) to be blamed for the suicide hijacking of 4 flights that caused the death and destruction on 9/11/01 when in fact there were no planes and all the destruction was caused by other means


KSM divulging info that supports 1) , if obtained by torture and therefore be suspect as to its veracity may also support 2) but cannot support either 3) or 4) except in that 3) is a subset of 2).

In other words, a lie does not prove anything other than that particular detail, and in this case it is pure supposition that what KSM said was a lie.
Pretty flimsy evidence to back the claim in 3) or 4) above.

Originally Posted by JihadJane
Torture can be used to extract information. It can also be used to fabricate information by encouraging the victim to tell lies.

I also asked if anyone at NIST was tortured into signing off on the reports concerning the collapses of WTC 1, 2 & 7
Same goes for the ASCE, the CTBUH or any witnesses to the planes hitting any structure.

 

[dtugg]

I don't even see how people can even say that what KSM told the CIA about 9/11 was gained through torture. Considering that he had previously bragged about it and that these people think they are guaranteed to spend an eternity in Heaven with 72 virgins by dying for doing the work of God, it is very possible, and I think likely that he told them everything they wanted to know without using torture or the threat of it at all. KSM had other, valuable information that he would not give up voluntarily, necessitating, in the minds of his interrogators, the use of torture.

 

[JihadJane]

,,, and I asked a couple of times how the torture of KSM would illustrate at all the veracity of claims of no-planes, thermite, bombs in the buildings , Pentagon fly-overs, 'planted' FDR's etc.

None of the claims you mention need to be verified to uncover treason. Investigations should be focussed on suspects.

The Bush regime ignored clear warnings about imminent attacks and then lied about it. When will its members be interrogated in the appropriate manner?

The investigation into 911 has hardly begun.

In other words, a lie does not prove anything other than that particular detail, and in this case it is pure supposition that what KSM said was a lie.

The KSM show is now, primarily, propagandistic. Very few people know what he actually said. The records have been destroyed.

I also asked if anyone at NIST was tortured into signing off on the reports concerning the collapses of WTC 1, 2 & 7
Same goes for the ASCE, the CTBUH or any witnesses to the planes hitting any structure.

See above, though NIST's lack of concern about evidence removal and destruction is, admittedly, suspicious.

It's reasonable to think that no-one was tortured into participating in its mainly virtual, backwards investigations.

 

[jaydeehess]

None of the claims you mention need to be verified to uncover treason. Investigations should be focussed on suspects.

The Bush regime ignored clear warnings about imminent attacks and then lied about it. When will its members be interrogated in the appropriate manner?

So then are you saying that you discount the idea of MIHOP and are only concerned that he Bush admin simply allowed an attack by a fundementalist Islamic organization, that believes itself to be at war with the USA and the west in general, to continue to its fruition?

As was said many times, had the TM stayed with what is now termed a LIHOP senario or one in which pure incompetance and political rivalry allowed this to occur then they may well have become relevent. Instead political motivations caused some to bring forward all manner of purely idiotic ideas such as thermite, thermobaric weapons, nukes, energy beams, faked planes, faked FDR's, planted debris and DNA and thus your movement became an irrelevent fringe group that most who contemplate its tenets consider loony (for lack of a more consise word coming to mind).

See above, though NIST's lack of concern about evidence removal and destruction is, admittedly, suspicious.

It's reasonable to think that no-one was tortured into participating in its mainly virtual, backwards investigations.

If by "mainly virtual, backwards investigations" you refer to one that did not include reconstructing the entire structures several times and setting them ablaze with different starting conditions such as the amount of impact damage, fuel load, rubblization etc, and one that started with the knowledge that the buildings collapsed and worked to find what caused that to occur in as close a fashion as was observed in the videos of the collapses, then I agree wholeheartedly. It is purely unreasonable to believe that the hundreds of people who contributed to the studies would all be coerced into signing off on having their work to produce a sham docuement. Authors of Global warming docuements have spoken out about the wording of their work being altered and spun and they are not concerned about a cover up of mass murder.

 

[jaydeehess]

I don't even see how people can even say that what KSM told the CIA about 9/11 was gained through torture. Considering that he had previously bragged about it and that these people think they are guaranteed to spend an eternity in Heaven with 72 virgins by dying for doing the work of God, it is very possible, and I think likely that he told them everything they wanted to know without using torture or the threat of it at all. KSM had other, valuable information that he would not give up voluntarily, necessitating, in the minds of his interrogators, the use of torture.

I had stated ;

In other words, a lie does not prove anything other than that particular detail, and in this case it is pure supposition that what KSM said was a lie.

it can also be said that;
this case it is pure supposition that what KSM said was obtained by torture for the rerasons that you outline. Although KSM would certainly hate his captors and not wish to divulge too much there is no reason for him to deny that the group to which he belonged carried out the attacks in which all of the operatives that did it are dead.

 

[Baylor]

The investigation into 911 has hardly begun.

Just another Trutherism.

PENTTBOM
The FBI criminal investigation into the 9-11 attacks on the Pentagon and the Twin Towers; largest operation in the history of the FBI. Often implied by truthers to be non-existent.

http://skepticwiki.org/index.php/9/11_Glossary#PENTTBOM

 

[Baylor]

The investigation into 911 has hardly begun.

Our ensuing investigation of the attacks of 9/11/01—code-named “PENTTBOM”—was our largest investigation ever. At the peak of the case, more than half our agents worked to identify the hijackers and their sponsors and, with other agencies, to head off any possible future attacks. We followed more than half-a-million investigative leads, including several hundred thousand tips from the public. The attack and crash sites also represented the largest crime scenes in FBI history.

www.fbi.gov/pressrel/penttbom/penttbomb.htm

Looks like the January stundies are going to be competitive.

 

[JihadJane]

So then are you saying that you discount the idea of MIHOP ...

As was said many times, had the TM stayed with what is now termed a LIHOP senario ...Instead political motivations caused some to bring forward all manner of purely idiotic ideas such as thermite, thermobaric weapons, nukes, energy beams, faked planes, faked FDR's, planted debris and DNA and thus your movement became an irrelevent fringe group that most who contemplate its tenets consider loony (for lack of a more consise word coming to mind).

It's not my movement.

I’ve never understood the distinction between MIHOP nad LIHOP. If one let’s something happen on purpose one has made it happen on purpose.The rest is detail.

Your focus on ”purely idiotic ideas” is instructive.

If by "mainly virtual, backwards investigations" you refer to one that did not include reconstructing the entire structures several times and setting them ablaze with different starting conditions such as the amount of impact damage, fuel load, rubblization etc, and one that started with the knowledge that the buildings collapsed and worked to find what caused that to occur in as close a fashion as was observed in the videos of the collapses, then I agree wholeheartedly.

I was referring to “investigations” that were almost completely detached from concrete, physical reality and depended , instead, on abstracted, malleable, computer simulations.

It is purely unreasonable to believe that the hundreds of people who contributed to the studies would all be coerced into signing off on having their work to produce a sham docuement. Authors of Global warming docuements have spoken out about the wording of their work being altered and spun and they are not concerned about a cover up of mass murder.

I've never claimed that "the hundreds of people who contributed to the studies" were coerced. Can you name these “hundreds”, by the way, and their roles?

Our ensuing investigation of the attacks of 9/11/01—code-named “PENTTBOM”—was our largest investigation ever. At the peak of the case, more than half our agents worked to identify the hijackers and their sponsors and, with other agencies, to head off any possible future attacks. We followed more than half-a-million investigative leads, including several hundred thousand tips from the public. The attack and crash sites also represented the largest crime scenes in FBI history.

www.fbi.gov/pressrel/penttbom/penttbomb.htm

Looks like the January stundies are going to be competitive.

Looks good until one remembers that the hijackers were named within days of the attacks, that the "crime scenes" were not treated as crime scenes, and that we are frequently told that another attack on the US “Homeland” by al Qaeda is inevitable.

Sounds like "PENTTBOM" was a bit of a waste of money!

Where is the documentary evidence of their investigations? What did they discover? Who were the "sponsors"? Did "PENTTBOM" investigate the Bush regime and its friends? Did it investigate the “shadowy government” referred to in the Iran/Contra hearings?

"There exists a shadowy government with its own Air Force, its own Navy, its own fundraising mechanism, and the ability to pursue its own ideas of national interest, free from all checks and balances, and free from the law itself."

-- Daniel K. Inouye - (1924- ) US Senator, Hawaii-D (1963-present)

Source: at the Iran Contra Hearings, 1986

 

[Baylor]

Looks good until one remembers that the hijackers were named within days of the attacks, that the "crime scenes" were not treated as crime scenes, and that we are frequently told that another attack on the US “Homeland” by al Qaeda is inevitable.

Sounds like "PENTTBOM" was a bit of a waste of money!

Where is the documentary evidence of their investigations? What did they discover? Did "PENTTBOM" investigate the Bush regime and its friends? Did it investigate the “shadowy governemnt” referred to in the Iran/Contra hearings?

"There exists a shadowy government with its own Air Force, its own Navy, its own fundraising mechanism, and the ability to pursue its own ideas of national interest, free from all checks and balances, and free from the law itself."

-- Daniel K. Inouye - (1924- ) US Senator, Hawaii-D (1963-present)

Source: at the Iran Contra Hearings, 1986

Crap post. All it shows is how erratic and disorganized your thoughts are.

 

[JihadJane]

Crap post. All it shows is how erratic and disorganized your thoughts are.

Thanks for your substantive critique!

 

[dtugg]

I guess Jane knows more about investigating crimes than 7,000 FBI agents collectively do.

 

[beachnut]

...
Looks good until one remembers that the hijackers were named within days of the attacks, ...

Wowzer; the airlines use names on the manifest! I never knew that; I wonder where the names came from. How did they find the names of the terrorists so quick? I bet that was hard! lol

I think suicide plane flying is different than robbing banks, who cares if you know my name after I impact the building at 600 knots, and the kinetic energy of a 2000 pound bomb! I don't care if you find my name on the manifest, and all my junk left behind. The terrorist wanted credit, they did it on purpose to kill people, it was their goal to take credit, they are not 9/11 truth, they are truthful murderers who take responsibly; irony, 9/11 truth lies, terrorist tell truth!

Are you serious about 9/11 truth? Because 9/11 truth has not got one thing right in 7 years, and you have the same exact record. Your revelation of hijacker names is so anti-intellectual, it is easy to see why 9/11 truth has failed completely and remains evidence free. Is this your best effort, or can we expect an A game soon?

 

[Confuseling]

JJ; you allude to the murky distinction between LIHOP and MIHOP.

Well, there is an area of LIHOP that is actually plausible, to wit: groups of high level planners, perhaps cross party, decide to reduce funding / divert attention for terrorist defences, because a successful attack is in their long term interest.

That's plausible. The other part; they hear specific intelligence about an attack, and order a stand down, becomes less plausible the more specific the intelligence is. If Bush's inner circle heard from the CIA that Al-Qaeda were DEFINITELY going to attack by aeroplane in the next month, and then promptly sent NORAD on an unscheduled holiday, do you really think everyone at NORAD and the CIA could be threatened / bought into silence?

Then we have MIHOP, and sorry, but that would plainly and simply leave stacks and stacks of physical evidence - ranging, depending on the scenario, from seismic signals and explosive remnants to parts of remote controlled planes, or involve tens of thousands of people.

It simply isn't possible, and no amount of unjustly torturing suspects will ever change that. If there were any significant anomalies in the evidence in the public record - including the way the towers fell, the records of the physical investigation (including steel shipped away), and the records of judicial investigations, then America's ideological enemies (not least China) would be all over them like a rash.

You simply cannot keep an operation that complex secret from the world. North Korea couldn't do it, and an open country like the USA definitely couldn't do it. The only evidence you have is your suspicion about the motivations of the Bush regime - a suspicion that I share; but mangling the facts to suit your agenda will get you, and the Bush regime's legion other critics, nowhere.

The obstruction of investigation surrounding the whole thing has nothing to do with MIHOP, and everything to do with incompetence in the lead up or response, and perhaps illegitimate connections between Western intelligence agencies and political organisations and their counterparts in Israel, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. And if you want that investigated, the fastest way to bring it about is to publicly admit that there is absolutely no possibility that American forces destroyed the towers, and thereby marshal the dissenting voices to ask the correct, and therefore politically palatable questions.

 

[JihadJane]

Wowzer; the airlines use names on the manifest! I never knew that; I wonder where the names came from. How did they find the names of the terrorists so quick? I bet that was hard! lol

Sounds pretty simple. Why, then, did the FBI, " At the peak of the case," require "more than half [their] agents" to identify the hijackers and their sponsors"?

... do you really think everyone at NORAD and the CIA could be threatened / bought into silence?

I wonder if you have any curiosity as to how a covert military/intelligence operation might realistically be organised.

...The obstruction of investigation surrounding the whole thing has nothing to do with MIHOP, and everything to do with incompetence in the lead up or response, and perhaps illegitimate connections between Western intelligence agencies and political organisations and their counterparts in Israel, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan.

How do you know that the "obstruction of investigation surrounding the whole thing has nothing to do with MIHOP"?

And if you want that investigated, the fastest way to bring it about is to publicly admit that there is absolutely no possibility that American forces destroyed the towers, and thereby marshal the dissenting voices to ask the correct, and therefore politically palatable questions.

I doubt such public admissions would have any effect whatsoever on the likelihood of a properly empowered, independent investigation ever taking place!

You start by asserting what are legitimate area of inquiry. This is largely how content of the 911 Commission Report was controlled. No-one needs to be "threatened / bought into silence"; they just do what is legitimate.

Why do 911 investigations need to start with their conclusions?

 

[funk de fino]

Sounds pretty simple. Why, then, did the FBI, " At the peak of the case," require "more than half [their] agents" to identify the hijackers and their sponsors"?

Think about it a little longer. Another "almost imediately named" failure from JJ. You're very predictable.

Do the papers or the media care if they get it wrong? Do they have prove it?

When did the FBI release the names JJ?