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Why Deny the Holocaust

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This is coming from a position of pure ignorance, not from a position of Oh-I'm-So-Enlightened-And-Tolerant.

For an antisemite, particularly an American one, what's the beef with Jews, anyway? I can sort of understand the reasons (valid or otherwise) for Arab-Israeli animosity, I guess. But to some wannabe skinhead knuckledragger playing soldier at his survivalist playground in backwater Michigan, what's the deal? It makes about as much sense to me as being REALLY ANGRY!!! RAAAWRR!! :mad::mad: at nomadic Tuvan horse herders or something.

Why the Jews, take you pick.
http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/List_of_articles_by_William_L._Pierce_(part_two)#The_Jews
 
Unfortunately, that removed Saggy's post and I did think of a relevent question for him until now.

Saggy. If you come back here. Please answer this.

While we get that you do not believe the evidence of the Holocaust and that it is a Hoax, What is it you hope to accomplish by spreading that beleif? Why is it so imporantant to you that we also begin denying the holocaust.

To clarify what I am getting at. I am an atheist. I think that all religious belief is essentially false. That it is based on delusion, not truth. That being said, I do not go to religious forums and try to convince them of the error of thier ways. They are generally welcome to thier delusion.

If you review my posting history, you will see that the big trigger for me for attacking religious delusion is on gay rights threads. When thier delusion either prompts them to (or is used an an excuse for) deny me freedoms, then thier delusion impacts my life and I counter by attacking the foundations of thier delusion.

How does our beleif that the Holocaust is true negatively impact you that you feel it is so important to break us of what you see as a delusion?

The Holocaust is a lie. We have the truth on our side. It is as simple as that.
 
The Holocaust is a lie. We have the truth on our side. It is as simple as that.

Sounds like your trying to convince yourself of that because clearly most people are not fooled by such nonsense...
 
The Holocaust is a lie. We have the truth on our side. It is as simple as that.

So?

try actually reading the posts you respond to.

I believe that Christianity is a lie. I don't however go to websites where 95% of the people are Christian and try to convince thim of this. By and large its a lie that does not effect me. In the instances that it does (ie gay rights, defamation of Atheism, etc), I speak out.

So, Saggy at least had the balls to answer my post. Now lets see if you do, MaGZ?

What is so terrible about the majority of people believing the lie of the Holocaust, that it impacts your life so negatively that you have to speak out?
 
The Holocaust is a lie. We have the truth on our side. It is as simple as that.


Is that the same truth as your claim of Germany having been the first to detonate an atomic bomb? If so, then the definition of 'truth' has been radically rewritten (much like your claims about history).
 
I would like to thank the skeptics here at JREF for helping me come to recent epiphany.

All my life, I never quite understood why people denied the Holocaust. It never made sense to me why people who hate Jews would deny what is arguably thier greatest achievement, the systematic erradication of nearly all of the Jewish population of central Europe.

My time on these boards has not only exposed me to critical thinking, but also to analysis of non-critical thinking. This combined with a recent resurgence in threads denying the Holocaust have help me achieve this epiphany.

To begin, I will move briefly to a topic that belongs more in religion. Specifically a rather odd subset of Christians that seem to define themselves not in thier worship of God, but more in thier opposition to Satan. We see elements of this in the writings of Jack Chick and some of the bizzare anti-D&D rhetoric. These are people who have invested so much in thier self-image as glorious crusaders against the great evil of Satan and satanic influence in the world, that they cannot allow themselves to even consider the possibility that Satan does not exist. Any evidence that Satan is not real is just lies put forth by Satan to lull us into complaceny in thier minds.

If we take that mindset but change Satan to a global conspiracy of Jews secretly holding the real power, we move to a brand of anti-semitism that breeds Holocaust Denial. In this mindset the evil power wielded by the Jews is as epic as that weilded by Satan to the above-mentioned Christians. Thier faith, for lack of a better word, is predicated on the fear of this all-powerful conspiracy.

This is why the Holocaust is problematic for them. If the Jews weild so much power (and did so long before 1930) why did they not use their power to prevent Hitler from coming to power? Why did they idly sit by and allow 6 million of thier own to be slaughtered? In short, the existence of the Holocaust is anathema to thier world view in which the world is secretly governed by a cabal of all-powerful Jews.

One of the problems of simply denying the Holocaust, though, is the sheer volume of evidence in support of it. The physical evidence, the testimony of survivors and the testimony of Nazis. However, this problem is actually very easily and elegantly solved in that mindset by claiming the whole thing is a hoax. The elegence is that by claiming it was a hoax, it not only removes the existance of the Holocaust as an historical fact, but reinforces thier preset world view because the sheer scale of such a hoax would require an epicly powerful and nefarious entity. The question of why the Jews would do such a thing is as easily dismissed as if asking a theist why God (or Satan) does anything: "God moves in mysterious ways." It is simply a matter of faith that the Jews are so evil that mere mortals cannot fully understand why they do anything.

So I would appreciate your comments. Am I on to something, or am I just talking out of my backside? Is this even all that original or have others posited this theory before?

Very simple: Deutschland uber alles still runs rampant in weak and desolate minds.
 
Holocaust deniers come in shades and degrees.

Only some deny that any Jews at all were targeted as Jews and killed.
Most deny that there was a Grand Plan or even intention behind it, and most deny the large numbers.

One line of argument for example plays a number game and goes against certain strawmen: They take that popular figure of "6 million Jews", add the (false) claim "gas" or "at Auschwitz" and then procede to argue that far fewer Jews suffered death from gas or at Auschwitz - thereby attempting to spread doubts about the "official" account.

Now, there really ist no "official" account, only some ranges of numbers quoted from eminent historians. I believe the "6 million" comes from an affidavit signed by an SS-man named Höttl at the end of 1945 who was quoting an Eichmann-figure from august 1944. This number was used and thus elevated to indelible posterity at the Nuremberg trials.

Eichmann himself is recorded with estimating the death toll at 5 million, and in fact most serious estimates are in the range from just under 5 million to 6 million.

Raul Hilberg in "The Destruction of the European Jews", third edition, Yale University Press 2003, estimates 5.1 million Jewish deaths and breaks the number down as follows:
- Open air shootings: 1,400,000
- Ghettoization and general privation: over 800,000
- Death camps: up to 2,600,000
- - among these in Auschwitz: up to 1,000,000
- other camps: 300,000
(page 1320)

Now we have to remember that not all death camp inmates were murdered with gas - many were shot, some still died from other causes or during transport. I also do not know but think that the death camp numbers include those killed in mobile gas units.

In the minds of many people at least here in Germany, "Auschwitz" is a synonyme for "Holocaust" - in fact a usual term for "Holocaust denial" is "Auschwitzlüge" (lie). I believe some deniers try to convince us that less than 1 million jews were gassed in Auschwitz - and hope that they are being understood as saying the 6 million number is wrong.

At the same time, many German holocaust deniers are counting up (and inflating) the number of cilvilians who died in allied bombing raids on cities ("Bombenholocaust").


So here is my intuition on the motivation for at least some deniers: By minimizing the jewish victims, maximizing the german (and japanese and ...) victims, they wish to blurr distinctions. They want to believe that Nazi-Germany was no worse than Churchill's Britain. Next step is: Adding up all victims of all American wars of the last 70 or so years to claim that the USA is actually worse than Nazi-Germany ever was.

Why all this?
- Scapegoating - blame the USA and / or Israel ("USrael") for our own inadequacies
- Make nationalism, isolationism, national socialism acceptable ideas once again
 
If the holocaust is genuine then why is it a crime to question it in countries like France, Germany, Switzerland etc? People can be sent to jail for surfing websites like www.holocaustdenialvideos.com or www.nazigassings.com You would expect totalitarian laws in a communist or military dictatorship but all the countries that have holocaust denial laws call themselves "democratic" and claim to be open societies.
 
If the holocaust is genuine then why is it a crime to question it in countries like France, Germany, Switzerland etc? People can be sent to jail for surfing websites like www.holocaustdenialvideos.com or www.nazigassings.com You would expect totalitarian laws in a communist or military dictatorship but all the countries that have holocaust denial laws call themselves "democratic" and claim to be open societies.

While an important topic, there are plenty of other threads devoted to the wisdom of such laws. Please stay on topic for this thread.

Since you have decided to join us here, I would really like to hear what personally motivates you to deny the holocaust. In what way does the beleif of many that it happened affect your life that you feel it neccesary to come here and attempt to convince us of the error of our belief?

please review my earlier post regarding my choice not to challenge religious doctrine on religious sites for more detail of what I am looking for in a response.
 
If the holocaust is genuine then why is it a crime to question it in countries like France, Germany, Switzerland etc? People can be sent to jail for surfing websites like www.holocaustdenialvideos.com or www.nazigassings.com You would expect totalitarian laws in a communist or military dictatorship but all the countries that have holocaust denial laws call themselves "democratic" and claim to be open societies.

You are, once again, full of excrement here. Why don´t you give us a list of people who were sent of jail for "surfing websites"?

Oh, wait, right, you don´t because you can´t, because you´ve pulled yet more Denier propaganda out of some unnamed orifice.
 
Welcome to the forum, Oystein. I think you've summed up the basics very comprehensively there.

Dave

Thx Dave :)


If the holocaust is genuine then why is it a crime to question it in countries like France, Germany, Switzerland etc? People can be sent to jail for surfing websites like holocaustdenialvideos.com or nazigassings.com. You would expect totalitarian laws in a communist or military dictatorship but all the countries that have holocaust denial laws call themselves "democratic" and claim to be open societies.

Guess what? I am in Germany, and just this morning I did surf a couple of holocaust denier sites, and - whohooo! - I am not afraid I might get prosecuted! :cool:

Why ist that?

Because I do not deny the holocaust :)

I can't speak for other countries, but the hurdles for a conviction according to German penal code §130 (3) StGB are quite high. It does not suffice if you "doubt" or "question" the veracity of the holocaust, or if you seek out opinions and supposed "facts" that go against established historical records. The hurdles are three:
1. You have to (actively) deny, approve of or defend the holocaust (or other crimes against humanity perpetrated by nazi Germany)
2. You have to do it publicly
3. You have to do it in a way that is able to disturb the "public peace".

So if you just question the holocaust, you're fine. If you do so privately (for example, a web forum that is only open to member would not be considered public), you're fine. If you do it in a context or tone that can not be construed as attempting to incite hatred, violence, or stripping others of rights, you're probably fine.
 
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