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Why Deny the Holocaust

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dudalb said:
The fact is Holocaust Denial originated as an attempt to whitewash the Third Reich,and Anti Semitism is the driving force behind it.
A vast majority of it's advocates are Anti Semites, and almost all of those who are not are mainly
A. A small group of Libertarians who think that a "Nazi Germany Was not that bad" will help them with their "Non Interventionist Foreign Policy" routine (they think every US involvment with a war was wrong,WW One and Two in particular)
B. The usual internet idiots who will latch onto any "Daring" "Unconventional" and "Anti Establishment" idea, not matter how stupid, to prove what Maverick, Radical, individuals they are.
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I am not denying that the vast majoritiy (if not all) of Holocaust deniers are anti-semites. In fact my OP clearly asserts that maintaining the 'faith' of anti-semitism is the driving force behind the denial.

I used to think as you do that it is an attempt to whitwash or rehabilite the image of the Nazis. However recent denialist posts on this forum now seem to be much more similar in form to a theist attempting to reconcile thier religion with conflicting scientific evidence or a 911 Truther attempting to reconcile thier pet theory with conflicting evidence.

To me, it seems as if the denialist posts are far more similar to somebody attempting to maintain a delusion in the face of conflicting evidence than it does like somebody trying to deliberately spread lies to achieve an agenda. They sound more like a Sylvia Browne fan than they do like Sylvia Browne.
 
Brainster said:
In my experience the issue is more with Israel. For whatever reason a lot of people just can't stand Israel. They see it as the reason the Arabs (with all that lovely oil) hate us. They see it as the 51st state, as the Israel lobby that dominates American politics.

So they cast about for a reason to deny Israel's right to exist, and an obvious one is to deny the original cause. If there was no Holocaust, then there was no need for a Jewish state anywhere. It's a way of short-cutting past all the arguments pro and con about Israel, just as 9-11 Truth is a way of short-cutting past the arguments pro and con about our involvement in Afghanistan and Iraq (or for the libertarian Truthers, the Patriot Acts).
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I think this is it as well. Additionally, in younger Deniers, I also sense a whiff of not only hatred for Israel but a sort of "rage against the man" thing that goes through all conspiracy theorists where ANY widely believed theory MUST be a hoax.

Deniers feel special because they know what "really" went on, much like 9/11 truthers. This is the allure of reality denial to the more gullible among us who want to feel special.
 
In Sydney Australia, there is a soup kitchen run by the Catholic Church. One day a year members of the local Jewish community take over the running of that kitchen. The day is Christmas day, and the reason is so local Catholics can enjoy the day with their family

Why? A simple thank you for the efforts of the Catholic Church to save Jews during WW2. I dont need any other proof the holocaust happened
 
cwalner said:
So I would appreciate your comments. Am I on to something, or am I just talking out of my backside? Is this even all that original or have others posited this theory before?
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It's a nice idea, but I think you're making things too complicated. Your mistake is in expecting nutjobs to be consistent with their claims and beliefs. Instead of looking for some kind of rational connection between the two, just think of it as two entirely unconnected claims. If someone says the Jews suffered at some point, they deny it. If someone says the Jews aren't bad, they deny it. There doesn't need to be any connection or consistency between the two denials, they're both simply bigotry jumping straight out without bothering to have a talk with Mr Brain first.
 
This is coming from a position of pure ignorance, not from a position of Oh-I'm-So-Enlightened-And-Tolerant.

For an antisemite, particularly an American one, what's the beef with Jews, anyway? I can sort of understand the reasons (valid or otherwise) for Arab-Israeli animosity, I guess. But to some wannabe skinhead knuckledragger playing soldier at his survivalist playground in backwater Michigan, what's the deal? It makes about as much sense to me as being REALLY ANGRY!!! RAAAWRR!! :mad::mad: at nomadic Tuvan horse herders or something.
 
Brainster said:
In my experience the issue is more with Israel. For whatever reason a lot of people just can't stand Israel. They see it as the reason the Arabs (with all that lovely oil) hate us. They see it as the 51st state, as the Israel lobby that dominates American politics.
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QFT.

Why deny the Holocaust? Because the Holocaust is the direct precursor of the Jewish state in Israel, and according to deniers, nothing but a massive PR coup to justify Jewish colonization in Arab land.
 
It's simple. Neo-Nazis think that by denying the Holocaust, they can re-establish National Socialism as a viable political alternative.
 
Hitler and the Nazis had to lie the big lie to come to power. Lying some more to whitewash their crimes comes naturally. And, since the lie is the biggest, they can pretend that every little historical inconsistency is a wrecking ball that destroys their opponents.
 
I said this in another thread, but some people just like the bad guys, especially bad guys with the kind of evil, sauve charm the Nazis had. This has created a fandom. However, as fandom progresses, the evil starts to get filtered out. Villians become anti-heroes, and anti-heroes eventually misunderstood heroes, and finally heroes outright.

You can see a parallel with the treatment of vampires in fiction and fandom over the years. We've gone from Bram Stokers original hellish monster, to Legosi's sauve corruptor, to Anne Rice's bloodsucking anti-heroes, until finally Twilight, where the vampire is basically just a superhero.

So, yeah, holocaust deniers are basically Twilight fans.
 
Folks I've moved some stuff discussing evidence of the Holocaust to a more appropriate thread: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168195 this thread's topic is not discussing evidence of the holocaust, but why there is a group of people that deny it happened and their reasons for denying it happened.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Darat
 
Darat said:
Folks I've moved some stuff discussing evidence of the Holocaust to a more appropriate thread: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168195 this thread's topic is not discussing evidence of the holocaust, but why there is a group of people that deny it happened and their reasons for denying it happened.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Darat
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Unfortunately, that removed Saggy's post and I did think of a relevent question for him until now.

Saggy. If you come back here. Please answer this.

While we get that you do not believe the evidence of the Holocaust and that it is a Hoax, What is it you hope to accomplish by spreading that beleif? Why is it so imporantant to you that we also begin denying the holocaust.

To clarify what I am getting at. I am an atheist. I think that all religious belief is essentially false. That it is based on delusion, not truth. That being said, I do not go to religious forums and try to convince them of the error of thier ways. They are generally welcome to thier delusion.

If you review my posting history, you will see that the big trigger for me for attacking religious delusion is on gay rights threads. When thier delusion either prompts them to (or is used an an excuse for) deny me freedoms, then thier delusion impacts my life and I counter by attacking the foundations of thier delusion.

How does our beleif that the Holocaust is true negatively impact you that you feel it is so important to break us of what you see as a delusion?
 
I think its fairly simple. If you think Jews are the bad guys then the holocaust is a big problem because it paints the Jews as victims. If you suggest that the holocaust was a hoax, then hey presto, suddenly the Jews are the bad guys again, and the Nazis, indeed the whole world, are the victims.

Its exactly the same approach to events like 9/11. The USA are bad guys, something happens that makes the USA look like victims, that idea is just too unpalatable for some people, so they suggest that 9/11 was faked. As if by magic their world view is restored. The USA are no longer 'victims', but the bad guys again.

When events happen in the world that do not fit into your world view, some people take desperate measures to preserve their (blatantly incorrect) beliefs. The more extreme that belief is, the more extreme the measures will need to be. Denying the deaths of 6 million Jews is almost as desperate as you can get.
 
cwalner said:
Unfortunately, that removed Saggy's post and I did think of a relevent question for him until now.

Saggy. If you come back here. Please answer this.

While we get that you do not believe the evidence of the Holocaust and that it is a Hoax, What is it you hope to accomplish by spreading that beleif? Why is it so imporantant to you that we also begin denying the holocaust.
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1. The direct consequences of the holohoax in itself have been disastrous and promise to get worse.

The Palestinians have paid with land and lives. Europe and the US have paid trillions.

We're now engaged in a phony 'war with Islam' to support the continued existence of apartheid Israel. This war can at any time expand to engulf the world.

2. The holohoax and the demonization of Hitler explain the catastrophe of WW II. In two ways - it explains why Hitler killed so many millions, he was a demon. And, it explains why the allies killed so many millions, to stop Hitler.

This is not the correct explanation for the incredible destruction of WW II, and it is imperative for the future of the human race that the right lesson be learned from the war.

Hitler was an imperial warlord of the type that have led societies from the beginning, no better, no worse. The holohoax is pure phantasmagoria. The incredible destruction of WW II occurred because of TECHNOLOGY. Hitler killed many more millions than anyone before him because he could. The allies killed many more millions because they could. Technology gave Hilter and the alllies incredible destructive power, which no society had had before, and they used it. It was inevitable.

That is the correct lesson from WW II.
 
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Saggy said:
1. The direct consequences of the holohoax in itself have been disastrous and promise to get worse.

The Palestinians have paid with land and lives. Europe and the US have paid trillions.

We're now engaged in a phony 'war with Islam' to support the continued existence of apartheid Israel. This war can at any time expand to engulf the world.

2. The holohoax and the demonization of Hitler explain the catastrophe of WW II. In two ways - it explains why Hitler killed so many millions, he was a demon. And, it explains why the allies killed so many millions, to stop Hitler.

This is not the correct explanation for the incredible destruction of WW II, and it is imperative for the future of the human race that the right lesson be learned from the war.

Hitler was an imperial warlord of the type that have led societies from the beginning, no better, no worse. The holohoax is pure phantasmagoria. The incredible destruction of WW II occurred because of TECHNOLOGY. Hitler killed many more millions than anyone before him because he could. The allies killed many more millions because they could. Technology gave Hilter and the alllies incredible destructive power, which no society had had before, and they used it. It was inevitable.

That is the correct lesson from WW II.
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Thank you for a thoughtful response. I do however disagree, so let me address your points.

1. The 'war with Islam' is not phony. It is quite real. There are extremist elements within Islam that are very upset with the west and the US in particular. They have taken up arms against us because of this and have drawn us into a war.

The reasons behind this are many and complicated and the claim that it is all about Israel is far too simplistic. The west has made numerous mis-steps that have caused friction in the Islamic world, most of which have nothing to do with Israel. Among these are the drawing of maps to create countries with no regard for traditional tribal boundries (ie Iraq & Afghanistan), Our continued support of pro-western leaders that had lost thier local popular support (ie Shah of Iran), and the percieved damage to thier region as a result of our consurmerism. (because of our dependence upon oil, they see us as feeding the rich who are then exploiting the poor in the region).

I could go on, but I have made my point. The conflicts between the West and Middle East are many and varied, and Israel is only one aspect of it. Even if Israel were to disappear as a nation, the other issues would not and we would still be in conflict with them.

2. I see that as a false dilemma. While what you say about the destruction of WWII being due to technology is true, this does nothing to negate the Evil that was Hitler. Just because technology allowed him to propegate his agenda in a far more desctructive manner than ever before seen, it does not show that his motivations were not evil.

Hitler was not the first anti-semitic leader the world had seen. The technology simply allowed him to far more brutally efficient in his anti-semitism than anything we had seen before. My family came to the US to escape the Pogroms in Russia at the turn of the century. Was Hitler more ant-semitic than the Czars? No. The technology simply allowed him to be more efficient and efective at carrying out genocide.

I also disagree that the message of how destructive war had become due to technology was not learned. The US and Russia engaged in a Cold War for nearly two generations after WWII. This never escalated in that time to full scale war between the countries. The restraint that both sides showed in avoiding direct hostilities was clearly influenced by the memory of the destructiveness of WWII.
 
Saggy said:
1. The direct consequences of the holohoax in itself have been disastrous and promise to get worse.

The Palestinians have paid with land and lives. Europe and the US have paid trillions.

We're now engaged in a phony 'war with Islam' to support the continued existence of apartheid Israel. This war can at any time expand to engulf the world.

2. The holohoax and the demonization of Hitler explain the catastrophe of WW II. In two ways - it explains why Hitler killed so many millions, he was a demon. And, it explains why the allies killed so many millions, to stop Hitler.

This is not the correct explanation for the incredible destruction of WW II, and it is imperative for the future of the human race that the right lesson be learned from the war.

Hitler was an imperial warlord of the type that have led societies from the beginning, no better, no worse. The holohoax is pure phantasmagoria. The incredible destruction of WW II occurred because of TECHNOLOGY. Hitler killed many more millions than anyone before him because he could. The allies killed many more millions because they could. Technology gave Hilter and the alllies incredible destructive power, which no society had had before, and they used it. It was inevitable.

That is the correct lesson from WW II.
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The correct lesson is that the Nazis were lying,evil scumbags and their ideology should be wiped from the face of the Earth.
 
Does the promotion of the Holocaust in the media create Jew-haters?
 
ANTPogo said:
Exactly.

Harold Covington, the neo-nazi founder of the National Socialist White People's Party, once said:

"I recall seeing a television program on revisionism a few years ago which closed with Deborah Lipstadt making some statement to the effect that: the real purpose of Holocaust revisionism is to make National Socialism an acceptable political alternative again. I normally don't agree with anything a Jew says, but I recall exclaiming, 'Bingo! Got it in one! Give that lady a cigar!'"

They know exactly what they're doing with their Holocaust denial, and that makes it even more vile.
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George Lincoln Rockwell founded the NSWPP in 1967. Covington later stole the name.

http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_White_People%27s_Party_(1967-1983)
 
parky76 said:
the purpose of Holocaust denial is to resurrect and purify the reputation of the Nazis, so that they can again become political parties in Europe, gain power, and kill the remaining Jews and other "undesirables". Kinda ironic huh?

though, bear in mind, there are some Neo-Nazis who do NOT deny the Holocaust, and instead say it was a good thing. at least they are honest.
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name some
 
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