Why Deny the Holocaust

[cwalner]

I would like to thank the skeptics here at JREF for helping me come to recent epiphany.

All my life, I never quite understood why people denied the Holocaust. It never made sense to me why people who hate Jews would deny what is arguably thier greatest achievement, the systematic erradication of nearly all of the Jewish population of central Europe.

My time on these boards has not only exposed me to critical thinking, but also to analysis of non-critical thinking. This combined with a recent resurgence in threads denying the Holocaust have help me achieve this epiphany.

To begin, I will move briefly to a topic that belongs more in religion. Specifically a rather odd subset of Christians that seem to define themselves not in thier worship of God, but more in thier opposition to Satan. We see elements of this in the writings of Jack Chick and some of the bizzare anti-D&D rhetoric. These are people who have invested so much in thier self-image as glorious crusaders against the great evil of Satan and satanic influence in the world, that they cannot allow themselves to even consider the possibility that Satan does not exist. Any evidence that Satan is not real is just lies put forth by Satan to lull us into complaceny in thier minds.

If we take that mindset but change Satan to a global conspiracy of Jews secretly holding the real power, we move to a brand of anti-semitism that breeds Holocaust Denial. In this mindset the evil power wielded by the Jews is as epic as that weilded by Satan to the above-mentioned Christians. Thier faith, for lack of a better word, is predicated on the fear of this all-powerful conspiracy.

This is why the Holocaust is problematic for them. If the Jews weild so much power (and did so long before 1930) why did they not use their power to prevent Hitler from coming to power? Why did they idly sit by and allow 6 million of thier own to be slaughtered? In short, the existence of the Holocaust is anathema to thier world view in which the world is secretly governed by a cabal of all-powerful Jews.

One of the problems of simply denying the Holocaust, though, is the sheer volume of evidence in support of it. The physical evidence, the testimony of survivors and the testimony of Nazis. However, this problem is actually very easily and elegantly solved in that mindset by claiming the whole thing is a hoax. The elegence is that by claiming it was a hoax, it not only removes the existance of the Holocaust as an historical fact, but reinforces thier preset world view because the sheer scale of such a hoax would require an epicly powerful and nefarious entity. The question of why the Jews would do such a thing is as easily dismissed as if asking a theist why God (or Satan) does anything: "God moves in mysterious ways." It is simply a matter of faith that the Jews are so evil that mere mortals cannot fully understand why they do anything.

So I would appreciate your comments. Am I on to something, or am I just talking out of my backside? Is this even all that original or have others posited this theory before?

 

[dtugg]

I think that a lot of them damn well know it happened. Their efforts to change history are simply an effort to whitewash their heroes the Nazis in order to make the ideology more acceptable to normal people. That way, they hope, they can have another Holocaust, except this time kill ALL the Jews.

 

[cwalner]

I think that a lot of them damn well know it happened. Their efforts to change history are simply an effort to whitewash their heroes the Nazis in order to make the ideology more acceptable to normal people. That way, they hope, they can have another Holocaust, except this time kill ALL the Jews.

I used to think that, but now it seems to me that is far more complex of a thought process than what is displayed by most Holocaust deniers. It also starts to enter into the same conspiracy thinking that they have, but making the anti-semites the conspirators.

What I find more credible about cognitive dissonance in order to preserve their delusion is it is something we see regularly to varying degrees in theists attempting to preserve thier faith when it conflicts with empirical evidence. It is even something I was guilty of when I first joined this forum.

 

[Ignorantbystander]

I think that a lot of them damn well know it happened.

I used to think so too, but after having encountered and debated many of them (on the internet) I think that most of them, like 9/11 truthers, really believe in their delusions.
As for the OP, your theorie does make sense, but I think there's more to it.
In the online world of blunt opinions, Holocaust denial is one of few things left to guarantee provocation and thus draw attention.
A good example of this is our 9/11 investigator who managed to be at the centre of one the biggest threads on the history section without even having basic knowledge on the subject.

And of course there's the ego trip of the 'critical thinker' who sees through all the facades, is able to think out of the box, cannot be misled by mainstream media and is not afraid (read: loves) to be politically incorrect.
I feel the latter motive is dominant for most deniers, truthers and other conspiraloons. Even more then their concern with the actual events they are denying or the implications of their alternative versions.
(try ask them the question: so, ok, the holocaust didn't happen and 9/11 was an inside job, and now what...)

 

[beachnut]

Why? Because they are dirt stupid neoNAZIs and that is what they do. You are right, if they were logical they would be praising the murder of the people they hate, but they are so incredibly stupid they make up lies.

Don't pass up the simple solution, neoNAZIs are dumb, they defy logic and make up moronic lies. Yes the president of Iran is an honorary neoNAZI.

Don't try to make sense of Hitler, he is the supreme NAZI, thus dirt dumb too.

 

[thaiboxerken]

I think that there are groups of people that still hate Jewish people. They hate them so much that they think that the history of Jewish oppression is just a fabrication by the Jewish Conspiracy. The Holocaust is just part of this historical revision by the global wide Jewish World Order.

 

[thaiboxerken]

All my life, I never quite understood why people denied the Holocaust. It never made sense to me why people who hate Jews would deny what is arguably thier greatest achievement, the systematic erradication of nearly all of the Jewish population of central Europe.

Besides the reasons I listed before. These same people don't want to feel as if they are the bad guys, the ones who might identify with those who have tried to commit genocide.

Killing Jews is ok, getting close to exterminating them might be too harsh.

 

[cwalner]

I think that there are groups of people that still hate Jewish people. They hate them so much that they think that the history of Jewish oppression is just a fabrication by the Jewish Conspiracy. The Holocaust is just part of this historical revision by the global wide Jewish World Order.

This is similar to what I am getting at but for me the hate is based in fear. If the Holocaust were real, then the Jews are not as fearsome as they believe, but if it is a giant hoax, it confirms the power of the Jews and justifies the fear.

 

[dtugg]

You guys are making sense. I never really looked at it like that before.

 

[fullflavormenthol]

Here is my opinion. There are people who just hate jews, and really don't care what happened to them, as long as it doesn't go against the narrative of the jews being all powerful. For some this manifests itself in the denial of the holocaust, for others it manifests itself in the claim that the holocaust was the "not really jews" killing off the real ones so that they could have it all to themselves.

For me, not that I have ever been a denier, the real history of the holocaust comes in the form of the devouring that the Roma speak of. I believe the holocaust, but the denier never seems to have a reason that the Roma were killed in such large numbers. This shows that they care little for evidence, and only supporting their own denial.

 

[JoeyDonuts]

Not to mention the Poles, the German citizens who were victims of Aktion T4, the Jehovah's Witnesses, the homosexual community, I mean - the list of victims for the Nazi's eugenics program just goes on and on.

Holocaust deniers rarely address these other victims. Keeps them from having a nice high-contrast view of history.

When you visit the National Holocaust Museum in DC, before you go into the exhibit you're given a pamphlet detailing the life of one Holocaust victim. Mine was a banker with three children, who wasn't Jewish - he was Armenian. As I went through the exhibits I found myself going back and re-reading his story, forcing myself to burn it into my mind.

I've never cried at a museum before, save for that one time in kindergarten when I touched a Van De Graff generator and wasn't prepared for the effects.

When I stepped into the room with the piles of thousands and thousands of shoes, with the Elie Wiesel quote from "Night" up on the wall, the gravity of the thing hits you in a way pictures can't evoke. My god, the smell of it. Every pair a story. Every pair a life snuffed out. I lost it.

I'll remember the face of that banker until the day I die.

 

[Brainster]

In my experience the issue is more with Israel. For whatever reason a lot of people just can't stand Israel. They see it as the reason the Arabs (with all that lovely oil) hate us. They see it as the 51st state, as the Israel lobby that dominates American politics.

So they cast about for a reason to deny Israel's right to exist, and an obvious one is to deny the original cause. If there was no Holocaust, then there was no need for a Jewish state anywhere. It's a way of short-cutting past all the arguments pro and con about Israel, just as 9-11 Truth is a way of short-cutting past the arguments pro and con about our involvement in Afghanistan and Iraq (or for the libertarian Truthers, the Patriot Acts).

 

[Moss]

I think some holocaust deniers are actually lying to themselves with the denial. They somehow came into the hero worship of the Nazis and they try to separate themselves from the heinous crimes that even they themselves can't stomach by the claim that external forces, namely the Jews, are spreading lies. I also think that it is a way of sparing themselves the consequences of thinking their often racist ideology through, namely what ugly things may happen.

 

[Chaos]

I´m not too sure about Holocaust Deniers believing their crap. If they did, don´t you think they´d come up with a slightly more coherent, slightly less batcrap crazy story to explain everything?

 

[Dave Rogers]

I´m not too sure about Holocaust Deniers believing their crap. If they did, don´t you think they´d come up with a slightly more coherent, slightly less batcrap crazy story to explain everything?

I think they struggle to come up with the least batcrap crazy story they can. There's such a mountain of evidence, that only a totally bizarre and implausible conspiracy theory can handwave it away. If they were to try to come up with a more sane alternative, they would very quickly realise that it would have to involve Nazi Germany deliberately killing millions of Jews, which is exactly the conclusion they refuse to accept.

Dave

 

[A'isha]

I think that a lot of them damn well know it happened. Their efforts to change history are simply an effort to whitewash their heroes the Nazis in order to make the ideology more acceptable to normal people. That way, they hope, they can have another Holocaust, except this time kill ALL the Jews.

Exactly.

Harold Covington, the neo-nazi founder of the National Socialist White People's Party, once said:

"I recall seeing a television program on revisionism a few years ago which closed with Deborah Lipstadt making some statement to the effect that: the real purpose of Holocaust revisionism is to make National Socialism an acceptable political alternative again. I normally don't agree with anything a Jew says, but I recall exclaiming, 'Bingo! Got it in one! Give that lady a cigar!'"

They know exactly what they're doing with their Holocaust denial, and that makes it even more vile.

 

[Thunder]

the purpose of Holocaust denial is to resurrect and purify the reputation of the Nazis, so that they can again become political parties in Europe, gain power, and kill the remaining Jews and other "undesirables". Kinda ironic huh?

though, bear in mind, there are some Neo-Nazis who do NOT deny the Holocaust, and instead say it was a good thing. at least they are honest.

 

[cwalner]

Not to mention the Poles, the German citizens who were victims of Aktion T4, the Jehovah's Witnesses, the homosexual community, I mean - the list of victims for the Nazi's eugenics program just goes on and on.

Holocaust deniers rarely address these other victims. Keeps them from having a nice high-contrast view of history.

When you visit the National Holocaust Museum in DC, before you go into the exhibit you're given a pamphlet detailing the life of one Holocaust victim. Mine was a banker with three children, who wasn't Jewish - he was Armenian. As I went through the exhibits I found myself going back and re-reading his story, forcing myself to burn it into my mind.

I've never cried at a museum before, save for that one time in kindergarten when I touched a Van De Graff generator and wasn't prepared for the effects.

When I stepped into the room with the piles of thousands and thousands of shoes, with the Elie Wiesel quote from "Night" up on the wall, the gravity of the thing hits you in a way pictures can't evoke. My god, the smell of it. Every pair a story. Every pair a life snuffed out. I lost it.

I'll remember the face of that banker until the day I die.

Joey,

I did not mean to diminish or handwave the tragedy of the ethnic groups that comprised the other 6 million victims of the Holocaust.

However, as you said, for the denier, it is all about the Jews.

While I have not visited the Holocaust memorial in DC, I did go the Anne Frank museum in Amsterdam when I visited there. While it does not address the enormity of what happened, it does manage to bring the experience to a very personal level. Even as I type this, the memory is bringing tears to my eyes and this visit was nearly 20 years (1/2 of my lifetime) ago.

 

[TSR]

I think some holocaust deniers are actually lying to themselves with the denial.

.
And the irony is (if they were capable of such an intellectual exercise) that many of them would be selected on contact for being too stupid to contribute to the welfare of the race.
.

 

[dudalb]

The fact is Holocaust Denial originated as an attempt to whitewash the Third Reich,and Anti Semitism is the driving force behind it.
A vast majority of it's advocates are Anti Semites, and almost all of those who are not are mainly
A. A small group of Libertarians who think that a "Nazi Germany Was not that bad" will help them with their "Non Interventionist Foreign Policy" routine (they think every US involvment with a war was wrong,WW One and Two in particular)
B. The usual internet idiots who will latch onto any "Daring" "Unconventional" and "Anti Establishment" idea, not matter how stupid, to prove what Maverick, Radical, individuals they are.