"Why can't we hate men?"

[JoeMorgue]

And that's how it always is. "I don't hate X, I just hate those X's."

I don't hate gays, just the flaming ones. I don't hate blacks, just the uppity ones.

 

[theprestige]

And that's how it always is. "I don't hate X, I just hate those X's."

I don't hate gays, just the flaming ones. I don't hate blacks, just the uppity ones.

I don't hate blacks, just the violent ones... Oh, wait. That's *people*. I hate violent *people*.

Or am I supposed to consider black violence from the black person's point of view? You know, like I'm supposed to consider rape from the rapist's point of view?

 

[d4m10n]

To be fair, that IS a list of what were termed the "creepiest" (i.e. the extreme end of the spectrum) examples of the incel movement, but given that the examples all came from threads with multiple approving commenters on Reddit and other forums, I think, it becomes pretty clear that the majority of the incel movement are overwhelmingly of the opinion that women owe them sex simply for existing.

Perhaps that is true now but that certainly isn't how it started. For those who commute or have spare time for audio, I highly recommend giving this podcast a listen:

https://www.gimletmedia.com/reply-all/120-invcel

 

[Delvo]

And that's how it always is. "I don't hate X, I just hate those X's."

I don't hate gays, just the flaming ones. I don't hate blacks, just the uppity ones.

...and not even far from an assertion that it really is all or practically all of "them" anyway...

There may be some hypothetical person out there who doesn't mean the former when he says the latter, but I've yet to hear one.

 

[sadhatter]

I concur. There are people who have difficulty finding intimacy, both physical and emotional. Belittling, mocking, and telling them that they're unlovable doesn't make anything better. It builds resentment, and some lash out because of it.

The fringe left is horrible for finding ways " punch up" doesn't apply to them. For a less political example I like to hear them rant about furries, then get super uncomfortable when you talk about the percentages of gay and trans folks in the community.

******** like to be mean, that's what we are seeing.

 

[sadhatter]

And that's how it always is. "I don't hate X, I just hate those X's."

I don't hate gays, just the flaming ones. I don't hate blacks, just the uppity ones.

I don't mean all men. ...

Cuts both ways, but it seems to have more in common with someone being an ******* than the phrasing.

 

[sadhatter]

Those also sound like extreme cases, but (fwiw) I'm just fine w/ hating on men like those. Sometimes anger really is the appropriate reaction.

If your goal is? You didn't finish your sentence,kinda seemed like you wanted the person reading to make your point for you instead of you actually explaining how and when simple anger is the best response.

 

[pharphis]

Another thing to point out is that although some of the online spaces inhabited by incels are very toxic/hateful (probably most of them outside of therapy groups) this is a fraction of those who are incel in practice. It's not like all of them gravitate toward a forum just like it's not like all feminists gravitate toward specific forums or any forum. The same goes for MGTOW.

Some people (incels most of all of the above-mentioned groups) are lonely, miserable people and that doesn't mean that they will aggregate with others online or be hateful. I suspect it's the most toxic people who gravitate towards each other already. Most people in some of these categories (MGTOW, incel) probably have never even heard the label before and just share some characteristics. Now they're being lumped in with the most disgusting of the group and demonized in public. I think this is likely to cause MORE resentment.

 

[Sabrina]

Another thing to point out is that although some of the online spaces inhabited by incels are very toxic/hateful (probably most of them outside of therapy groups) this is a fraction of those who are incel in practice. It's not like all of them gravitate toward a forum just like it's not like all feminists gravitate toward specific forums or any forum. The same goes for MGTOW.

Some people (incels most of all of the above-mentioned groups) are lonely, miserable people and that doesn't mean that they will aggregate with others online or be hateful. I suspect it's the most toxic people who gravitate towards each other already. Most people in some of these categories (MGTOW, incel) probably have never even heard the label before and just share some characteristics. Now they're being lumped in with the most disgusting of the group and demonized in public. I think this is likely to cause MORE resentment.

In essence, the silent majority doesn't like being striped with the brush of the vocal minority?

Sorry, but I'm personally of the opinion that if you don't like being tarred with the same brush, stop associating with those of the more extreme views. Start speaking out; make sure others who agree with your more moderate views do too. Heck, come up with a different name for yourselves or for the extreme ones so the ones who are definitely toxic are no longer associated with you. Same goes for any group with more extreme members, up to and including the political and religious ones. Otherwise, so long as your more vocal extremists are the ones being heard, you're going to end up being associated with them as long as you identify with the overall group. That's just a fact of life, unfortunately. They can change the public's perception of them very easily; it's not like speaking out against individuals espousing extremist views is hard, even if you are an introvert or more anti-social by nature; that's what the internet is pretty much FOR at this point. Don't want to be viewed as a man/woman-hating jerk? Speak up then; don't just sit and stew in resentment because the vocal minority are the ones being heard.

 

[3point14]

Don't want to be viewed as a man/woman-hating jerk? Speak up then; don't just sit and stew in resentment because the vocal minority are the ones being heard.

Seems reasonable. Trouble is, extremism makes for better headlines.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Don't want to be viewed as a man/woman-hating jerk? Speak up then; don't just sit and stew in resentment because the vocal minority are the ones being heard.

Bullcrap. I'm not responsible for what people that share a genital structure with me say or do.

Apply this to any other context; blacks, Muslims, gays... say that you expect any of them to "speak up" for other members of their demographic and every SJWs head would explode trying to get all the "Oh no you can't do that" out in time.

Unless you're genuflecting over every woman who has drowned her kid in the bathtub this seems like a double standard.

 

[Sabrina]

Seems reasonable. Trouble is, extremism makes for better headlines.

True, but so do images and stories of two disparate groups showing support for one another. Two images that immediately come to mind are the Christians who surrounded a group of praying Muslims and kept people from harassing them, and the Muslims who did a similar thing for a group of Christians. I think those stories are a few years old at this point, but it illustrates how simple it is to keep the "silent majority" from being associated with the "vocal minority" and drum up support at the same time; simply acknowledge that your "opponents" have their perspective and you have yours, but that doesn't mean it's impossible to coexist. In the case of the feminists who are being tarred with the militant misandrist brush, and the "incels" who are being tarred with the brush of those who advocate for legalizing rape or attacking women, they need to publicly disavow any association with the toxic elements and clearly and concisely lay out their overall issues without placing blame on anyone so people can understand their perspective. It doesn't mean everyone will agree with them, but it would allow for actual discourse that explains where they are coming from, and might make people more inclined to listen and actually discuss the issues rather than dismissing them because of the toxic elements.

 

[pharphis]

In essence, the silent majority doesn't like being striped with the brush of the vocal minority?

Sorry, but I'm personally of the opinion that if you don't like being tarred with the same brush, stop associating with those of the more extreme views. Start speaking out; make sure others who agree with your more moderate views do too. Heck, come up with a different name for yourselves or for the extreme ones so the ones who are definitely toxic are no longer associated with you. Same goes for any group with more extreme members, up to and including the political and religious ones. Otherwise, so long as your more vocal extremists are the ones being heard, you're going to end up being associated with them as long as you identify with the overall group. That's just a fact of life, unfortunately. They can change the public's perception of them very easily; it's not like speaking out against individuals espousing extremist views is hard, even if you are an introvert or more anti-social by nature; that's what the internet is pretty much FOR at this point. Don't want to be viewed as a man/woman-hating jerk? Speak up then; don't just sit and stew in resentment because the vocal minority are the ones being heard.

I agree 100%. Yet, what I said is that people who identify with those labels make up (I think) a small fraction of those who match those labels in practice. Remember, being an incel or mgtow isn't (necessarily) being part of a political movement.

So if someone who is involuntarily celibate, has never heard the label before and then hears on the news that "incels are misogynists who feel entitled to sex" how are they supposed to feel when they then hear the definition of what an "incel" is? And then when some incel DOES speak out they are lambasted as having a "bad personality" or "we weren't talking about YOU, #notall" how are other incels supposed to respond?

I don't know if you were ever one of the "not cool" kids ie nerds (before being a nerd became more cool) but can you imagine wanting to come out and say "I'm an incel, and I think those hateful guys are bad"?

Being an incel (even apart from the label association) already brandishes you as a loser. If you can't find a partner, that means you are a crappy person (even when it's outside of your control - it's not ALWAYS personality!)

I think this problem is almost exclusive to men, too. I can't say that I've ever seen hatred or disdain for a woman who couldn't find a partner. I'm sure it happens, though

 

[Sabrina]

Bullcrap. I'm not responsible for what people that share a genital structure with me say or do.

Apply this to any other context; blacks, Muslims, gays... say that you expect any of them to "speak up" for other members of their demographic and every SJWs head would explode trying to get all the "Oh no you can't do that" out in time.

Unless you're genuflecting over every woman who has drowned her kid in the bathtub this seems like a double standard.

How exactly is being a murderer a part of this conversation?

And yes, you may not be responsible for what other people say or do, but you ARE responsible for what YOU say or do, and if you say or do NOTHING against the people who are the toxic elements of your group, then how exactly are you supposed to be differentiated from them, may I ask?

 

[JoeMorgue]

And yes, you may not be responsible for what other people say or do, but you ARE responsible for what YOU say or do, and if you say or do NOTHING against the people who are the toxic elements of your group, then how exactly are you supposed to be differentiated from them, may I ask?

So how far do we take this nonsense? I have to speak up whenever a male does something. A white person? A left handed person? A veteran? An 0+ bloodtype? Do I have to make a statement to the press everytime someone who owns a 2013 Dodge Dart beats their spouse? Everytime a member of my credit union gets a DUI?

Which demographics that I happen to be a part of have I signed some sort of "On call PR Rep" contract with?

And again answer the question. Does this apply to other demographics or just men? What demographics do you have to apologize for when a member of them act up?

Your name starts with a S. You haven't denounced Stalin once this conversation. How am I supposed to know your differentiated from him if you haven't told me?

 

[theprestige]

Don't want to be viewed as a man/woman-hating jerk? Speak up then; don't just sit and stew in resentment because the vocal minority are the ones being heard.

Why do you, a woman, need a man to tell you not to latch onto a minority view and stereotype a majority of people according to that minority view? Why should the majority of men have to do anything to counter that minority view, other than not be the minority? Why isn't that simple, observable fact, all by itself, sufficient to clue women into what's really going on?

After more than a hundred years of feminists insisting that women were equal to men in moral reasoning, capable of independent thought, and able to arrive at sound conclusions on their own, it turns out that it's still a man's responsibility to make sure women don't have stupid ideas in their heads.

 

[Sabrina]

I agree 100%. Yet, what I said is that people who identify with those labels make up (I think) a small fraction of those who match those labels in practice. Remember, being an incel or mgtow isn't (necessarily) being part of a political movement.

So if someone who is involuntarily celibate, has never heard the label before and then hears on the news that "incels are misogynists who feel entitled to sex" how are they supposed to feel when they then hear the definition of what an "incel" is? And then when some incel DOES speak out they are lambasted as having a "bad personality" or "we weren't talking about YOU, #notall" how are other incels supposed to respond?

I don't know if you were ever one of the "not cool" kids ie nerds (before being a nerd became more cool) but can you imagine wanting to come out and say "I'm an incel, and I think those hateful guys are bad"?

Being an incel (even apart from the label association) already brandishes you as a loser. If you can't find a partner, that means you are a crappy person (even when it's outside of your control - it's not ALWAYS personality!)

I think this problem is almost exclusive to men, too. I can't say that I've ever seen hatred or disdain for a woman who couldn't find a partner. I'm sure it happens, though

Strictly speaking, the "disdain" for a woman who can't find a partner is part of the culture to the point that we've essentially normalized it and don't see it as an issue. Otherwise why would one of the first questions to a working woman usually be "So when are you going to have kids?", implying that a woman's only worth is in her ability to perpetuate the species. As a single, working woman myself, I've been asked that question any number of times, despite indicating that I am currently happily single and am approaching the age when child-bearing becomes dangerous for my health. It's becoming less of an issue as women's rights become more normalized in the culture, but it's still a problem. I would be willing to bet every single woman I work with who is not in a committed relationship gets asked about it at least once a year by male coworkers.

I still am a nerd, and happily so, thank you, despite it being cooler now to be one, but I can recall when I was still in middle and high school when I was derided for my intellect; I was lucky in that I was able to come to the realization that having a few good friends and doing well in school was more rewarding for me than being popular or involved in the more stereotypical activities for my gender (didn't become a cheerleader or homecoming queen because I didn't want to bother, for instance). So yes, I can imagine being able to speak up against those individuals who were lumped into the same group I was but were doing things I didn't agree with. I'm probably the exception to the rule, however; that I will grant you. Regardless, I don't see why this prevents them from speaking out. As I said to JoeMorgue, you may not bear responsibility for what others say or do, but you can't argue that you DO bear responsibility for what YOU say or do, so if you are associated wtih the toxic elements of your grouping because you didn't speak up, you really only have yourself to blame.

 

[Sabrina]

So how far do we take this nonsense? I have to speak up whenever a male does something. A white person? A left handed person? A veteran? An 0+ bloodtype? Do I have to make a statement to the press everytime someone who owns a 2013 Dodge Dart beats their spouse? Everytime a member of my credit union gets a DUI?

Which demographics that I happen to be a part of have I signed some sort of "On call PR Rep" contract with?

And again answer the question. Does this apply to other demographics or just men? What demographics do you have to apologize for when a member of them act up?

Your name starts with a S. You haven't denounced Stalin once this conversation. How am I supposed to know your differentiated from him if you haven't told me?

I have denounced the militant feminists in this very thread, for one example, due to the fact that I do call myself a feminist and do NOT want to be associated with the toxic elements of the group. I'm sure I could come up with others, but quite frankly your examples are becoming ludicrous in the extreme, so content yourself with that one example.

 

[Hellbound]

Just to add in some nuance, I agree, partly, with both sides.

On the one hand, groups you've self-selected to be in, by using and applying the label to yourself (or accepting it when applied by others), you absolutely have a responsibility to speak out against the extremists in it.

On the other hand, groups you're a part of simply because of who you are: gender, race, etc, this smacks a bit much of "guilty until proven innocent" for me to feel comfortable with.

I think drawing that distinction is important.

 

[Sabrina]

Why do you, a woman, need a man to tell you not to latch onto a minority view and stereotype a majority of people according to that minority view? Why should the majority of men have to do anything to counter that minority view, other than not be the minority? Why isn't that simple, observable fact, all by itself, sufficient to clue women into what's really going on?

After more than a hundred years of feminists insisting that women were equal to men in moral reasoning, capable of independent thought, and able to arrive at sound conclusions on their own, it turns out that it's still a man's responsibility to make sure women don't have stupid ideas in their heads.

Excuse me? Exactly where did I indicate I need a man to tell me not to latch on to a minority view? Kindly point me to the exact post, because you're clearly not reading my posts, if that's what you believe. Literally everyone in the world is guilty of "stereotyping" every member of a group thanks to the ones who actually speak up, so I would hardly call it a minority view anyway; that would rightly be considered a MAJORITY view.

I will excuse your last sentence because I refuse to resort to knee jerk reactions, but I should warn you that if you continue to insult me I will call you out for it. I have been nothing but polite and civil in my posts; kindly do me the favor of acting the same way.

ETA: I would also stress the following; I am a very big believer in self-responsibility and owning up to your own actions. I try very, VERY hard not to stereotype on the basis of a few individuals, but if they are the only example I have for something because the people who don't ascribe to the toxic ideas don't speak up, then please explain to me how the hell I am supposed to differentiate them. I'll answer it myself; I can't. I am not a mind-reader, nor do I have the responsibility to figure out exactly what each and every member of a particular group agrees with or doesn't agree with; it is THEIR responsibility to make it clear, not mine.