Why Can't They Figure it Out?

[Z]

Federal funding might be at a high point, but state funding varies dramatically. In Ohio, the education system has faced so many cutbacks, that a large portion of what was once provided by the school is now being asked of the parents and community to volunteer. Salaries are amazingly low, so several of the teachers locally supplement their income with other jobs. Thanks to this idiotic NCLB program, gifted programs have been axed across the board, while supplemental education classes such as music, art, and P.E. have also been largely eliminated.

Several of the local public schools are now public/charter schools - meaning they can charge tuition of those who can afford it, to offset the lack of funding they're receiving from the government.

Meanwhile - amazingly - the school board is reporting higher administrative salaries, and several new schools are being built - but the old schools are being recycled, rather than being eliminated. Playgrounds are entirely by donation from the community, and much of the extra materials used - especially in Pre-K through fifth grade - are being supplied out of the teachers' and parents' pockets. But the school board is getting new computers, a new internal network for their computers, and all sorts of new programs to benefit the administration of the school board itself.

Of course, I also live in a city that's been regularly found guilty of violations of the Constitution in many regards - and which has never been punished for any of those violations. So that may be a part of it.

Interestingly enough, when the schools were reporting significant student statistics lately, they found that many children were being counted by several schools, several conflicting programs, and in some cases, even by several counties. Some other children were not being counted at all - all to adjust the demographics to make the schools appear more in-line with the intentions of NCLB. This was discovered and... nothing happened. The state government shrugged it off, and passed the false data up to Federal - who also shrugged it off, and acted like nothing happened.

If we could just remove politicians from the education system - imagine what could happen?

 

[Tokenconservative]

Federal funding might be at a high point, but state funding varies dramatically. In Ohio, the education system has faced so many cutbacks, that a large portion of what was once provided by the school is now being asked of the parents and community to volunteer. Salaries are amazingly low, so several of the teachers locally supplement their income with other jobs. Thanks to this idiotic NCLB program, gifted programs have been axed across the board, while supplemental education classes such as music, art, and P.E. have also been largely eliminated.

Several of the local public schools are now public/charter schools - meaning they can charge tuition of those who can afford it, to offset the lack of funding they're receiving from the government.

Meanwhile - amazingly - the school board is reporting higher administrative salaries, and several new schools are being built - but the old schools are being recycled, rather than being eliminated. Playgrounds are entirely by donation from the community, and much of the extra materials used - especially in Pre-K through fifth grade - are being supplied out of the teachers' and parents' pockets. But the school board is getting new computers, a new internal network for their computers, and all sorts of new programs to benefit the administration of the school board itself.

Of course, I also live in a city that's been regularly found guilty of violations of the Constitution in many regards - and which has never been punished for any of those violations. So that may be a part of it.

Interestingly enough, when the schools were reporting significant student statistics lately, they found that many children were being counted by several schools, several conflicting programs, and in some cases, even by several counties. Some other children were not being counted at all - all to adjust the demographics to make the schools appear more in-line with the intentions of NCLB. This was discovered and... nothing happened. The state government shrugged it off, and passed the false data up to Federal - who also shrugged it off, and acted like nothing happened.

If we could just remove politicians from the education system - imagine what could happen?

Community schools supported by the community was the origional idea. That was not good enough for a teachers union that was growing ever more powerful and wealthy, and they pushed to have control of the schools taken away from localities and passed to districts, states and the federal government.

If funding for schools in your area is being "cut" it's because taxpayers, most likely fed up with the lousy product, have stopped supporting the schools by regularly giving them more money. It also sounds like population-shift is impacting your schools. Were I live, they also have built several new schools, including a huge new high school though it's very clear that by about 2025 (current demographic outlook) they won't have enough kids to fill it.

This will not stop them from having a full complement of teachers or administrators, of course. At full pay.

As for head count: this is why the public schools where I live (I doubt Ohio has this problem the way we do) are out in front in the battle to allow the children of illegals to attend our "free" schools and to throw open the borders to even more of them. The more noses they count in a school, the more money the school gets, whether that nose has a right to be there or not.

Indeed, politicians were not supposed to have their filthy hands in our schools in the original model, but remember that the NEA is the single most powerful lobbying organization in the country and has been for the past 20 years or so. They dump HUGE amounts of money into the coffers of select politicos to "encourage" them to do their bidding.

Tokie

 

[LostAngeles]

Tokie, I notice you completely ignored Imaginal Disc's post about how school performance correlates more strongly with socio-economic class. This has been shown by countless studies and some have shown that by bringing students from a low socio-economic class into a school with middle-class students raises the achievement level of the first group.

Would you mind addressing ID's post, please, as it provides a strong alternate explanation to your arguement?

 

[fuelair]

Tokie, I notice you completely ignored Imaginal Disc's post about how school performance correlates more strongly with socio-economic class. This has been shown by countless studies and some have shown that by bringing students from a low socio-economic class into a school with middle-class students raises the achievement level of the first group.

Would you mind addressing ID's post, please, as it provides a strong alternate explanation to your arguement?

This is not support for any side. Purely logical question based on true information in your post.

I have never seen anyone state statistics on the effect on the achievement level of the second group. Are you aware of a research result on that end of it? Is anyone here?

 

[LostAngeles]

This is not support for any side. Purely logical question based on true information in your post.

I have never seen anyone state statistics on the effect on the achievement level of the second group. Are you aware of a research result on that end of it? Is anyone here?

http://www.equaleducation.org/commentary.asp?opedid=1332

That should be freely available. It's the article I was thinking of and when I pull it up through the databases, the son of a bitch lists no cites.

However, I found another article by him that does list cites. If you'd like to read it for yourself:

AUTHOR: Richard D. Kahlenberg
TITLE: The New Integration
SOURCE: Educational Leadership 63 no8 22-6 My 2006

But here's the part you're asking about from the first one:

...
Will middle-class children be hurt by attending economically mixed schools? The research suggests that sprinkling a few middle-class kids into a school of highly concentrated poverty will likely hurt their academic achievement. But so long as a majority of the students are middle class (defined for these purposes as not eligible for free and reduced-price lunch), their achievement does not decline. This is true in part because the majority sets the tone in a school, and because research finds that middle-class children are less affected by school influences (for good or ill) than low-income children.
...

I also have, though:

AUTHOR: Chiu, Ming Ming; Khoo, Lawrence
TITLE: Effects of Resources, Inequality, and Privilege Bias on Achievement: Country, School, and Student Level Analyses
SOURCE: American Educational Research Journal 42 no4 575-603 Wint 2005

...

Schoolmates can also serve as a resource for one another. Students can benefit from resources made available by their friends, so governments can mitigate disparities in family wealth by mixing rich and poor students together in each school (rather than clustering rich students together in the same schools and poor students together in other schools). As a consequence of diminishing marginal returns, mixing students should benefit poorer students more than it benefits richer students (Coleman et al., 1966; Jencks et al., 1972).

...Furthermore, mixing students might provide richer students extra learning opportunities from poorer students' different experiences. Hence, mixing students might yield higher overall educational outcomes than clustering students, ceteris paribus.

...

Let me know if you want more, but if you have access to a database or your library does, that should be enough for you to find those articles at least.

 

[Zep]

Well, you could catch me out on the "correlation is not necessarily causation" issue, but in this case, they've pretty much, over the past decade or so since standardized (state) testing has put failing schools at risk for closing, spent millions of dollars trying to figure out "why" they keep failing.

Every year, when the reports on the schools' "grades" come out, shortly after follow all sorts of "experts" telling us why the schools are failing. Following this, are more studies to figure out why the schools are failing in preparation for the "experts" telling us why the schools are failing the following year.

Now, the only thing they have not addressed so far is this. They've trotted out all the "educators'" favorites, starting with "it's the parents' fault!" (yes, to a large degree in this case) to "we need to add free BREAKFAST!!" and "childcare for the students' kids!!" and any number of other bandaid approaches, the likes of which anybody with a few years under his or her belt has seen tried and discarded a dozen times over the decades since the mid-1960s.

Finally, just recently, the light went off over somebody's head, and THIS "study" by an "expert" indicates that well...it maybe just could be that the fact that teachers teach in English but that most of their students either don't speakd that particular language at all, speak very little of it, and can read almost no English.

Given, for about 3-4 years, you cannot be hired in this school district if you are not fluent in a language other than English, but they still have to deal with all those teachers still there who speak only English (sigh...yes, I know...some may speak Tagalog or !Kung! but that is hardly the point...DO try and focus, won't you!).

Do you always go off like this without actually addressing the questions?

I am beginning to guess I am talking to a teacher or school administrator. Should I care? Does that give you some special insight? Or does it just mean you are more biased than most?

Keep guessing. Oh, and a guess is not a "fact", btw.

The illegals are not purposely doing this. This, another hoary left-liberal tactic right out of the Playbook, is just another non-sequitur, bordering on an ad hom (HE's a RAAAACCIISTTTTTTT!!!!). To be sure, most of their parents would rather these kids were out earning money or finding a husband if they are girls. But our laws force them to be there until age 16, and there they are (mostly), not learning in two languages and bored out of their minds so disrupting the learning of others.

So many errors, so little content. And it seems like you want to answer your own questions now; carry on your own conversation. So what was the point of you posting at all? Oh yes: to rant. Oh well. Carry on. When you are calmer we will talk some more.

Now, if you ARE a teacher or school admin., and you do not know that this is what kids who are not doing anything else in school all day do--distrupt--it does not speak well to either your experience, your observation skills or your intellect.

Tokie

You REALLY don't have a clue, do you. Just mindless ranting. Incidentally, it's spelled "disrupt". You should have paid attention in spelling class...

 

[Z]

Community schools supported by the community was the origional idea. That was not good enough for a teachers union that was growing ever more powerful and wealthy, and they pushed to have control of the schools taken away from localities and passed to districts, states and the federal government.

Evidence, please?

If funding for schools in your area is being "cut" it's because taxpayers, most likely fed up with the lousy product, have stopped supporting the schools by regularly giving them more money.

Wrong. Taxpayers are still paying what they always have - it's not the taxpayers who have decided to eliminate budget for education, but the city and state themselves, often in closed meetings.

As for the 'lousy product', our schools are a lot better than most states. For one thing, we're not even trying to teach Creationism.

It also sounds like population-shift is impacting your schools. Were I live, they also have built several new schools, including a huge new high school though it's very clear that by about 2025 (current demographic outlook) they won't have enough kids to fill it.

Again, wrong. Do you ever research anything, or do you just trust in your own infallible intellect?

This will not stop them from having a full complement of teachers or administrators, of course. At full pay.

Because of course, if they were being fair about it, they'd only hire half as many teachers and dock them all 50% of their pay... ??

As for head count: this is why the public schools where I live (I doubt Ohio has this problem the way we do) are out in front in the battle to allow the children of illegals to attend our "free" schools and to throw open the borders to even more of them. The more noses they count in a school, the more money the school gets, whether that nose has a right to be there or not.

Every child has a right to education, no matter why or how he's in the country.

And as much as I'd like to see some actual evidence from you, it's pretty clear that you are a) unwilling or unable to provide evidence, and b) are a filthy racist.

Go back to Europe and quit polluting our soil.

--Z, more Chiricahua than European.

 

[Tokenconservative]

Tokie, I notice you completely ignored Imaginal Disc's post about how school performance correlates more strongly with socio-economic class. This has been shown by countless studies and some have shown that by bringing students from a low socio-economic class into a school with middle-class students raises the achievement level of the first group.

Would you mind addressing ID's post, please, as it provides a strong alternate explanation to your arguement?

Sure (and no, I just didn't see it...notice somethng: when I post, I am immediately assailed by dozens of posts directed at me. I am but a single man with but two hands and the requisite 11 fingers...): Bussing does not work. We tried it. We know that. It may raise scores of those being bussed in, but the other problems it causes to the school far outweigh this. As good socialists, you should all know that what we are after here is the betterment of the many, not the few.

Tokie

 

[Tokenconservative]

This is not support for any side. Purely logical question based on true information in your post.

I have never seen anyone state statistics on the effect on the achievement level of the second group. Are you aware of a research result on that end of it? Is anyone here?

I dont' have access to the studies I read some decades ago, but in my recollection there was some correlative, temporary rise in the bussed-in kids scores. Remember: that was decades ago, and the problems associated with bussing far outweigh any such increases.

Tokie

 

[Tokenconservative]

http://www.equaleducation.org/commentary.asp?opedid=1332

That should be freely available. It's the article I was thinking of and when I pull it up through the databases, the son of a bitch lists no cites.

However, I found another article by him that does list cites. If you'd like to read it for yourself:



But here's the part you're asking about from the first one:



I also have, though:



Let me know if you want more, but if you have access to a database or your library does, that should be enough for you to find those articles at least.

This is the same data, in general, I recall reading some decades ago regarding the academic results of bussing.

This work raises more questions than it answers: will there be some lottery to select those "few" lower socio-economic kids to be bussed to the more "middle-class" schools? What happens if, while there, the parent of one of these kids gets a raise and is no longer in that class? They get the boot?

How does being a "free lunch" kid in a Brentwood public school impact the self-esteem of the children bussed in from Compton?

Does "lower socio-economic" cohort include those whose first language is not English or who speak no English at all? How will this be addressed in an "English only" school?

How will these selectkids get to the school? Bussing was how it was done back in the 70s. This was a nighmare, but the kids were able to get to school. Since we know that did not work then, why would we assume it will work now? Or is this to be modeled after programs such as the "New Math"? Wait until all of the parents sending their kids to school have forgotten about it, then give it another go, even though we already know it was and will be an abysmal failure?

Tokie

 

[Tokenconservative]

Evidence, please?

Wrong. Taxpayers are still paying what they always have - it's not the taxpayers who have decided to eliminate budget for education, but the city and state themselves, often in closed meetings.

As for the 'lousy product', our schools are a lot better than most states. For one thing, we're not even trying to teach Creationism.

Again, wrong. Do you ever research anything, or do you just trust in your own infallible intellect?

Because of course, if they were being fair about it, they'd only hire half as many teachers and dock them all 50% of their pay... ??

Every child has a right to education, no matter why or how he's in the country.

And as much as I'd like to see some actual evidence from you, it's pretty clear that you are a) unwilling or unable to provide evidence, and b) are a filthy racist.

Go back to Europe and quit polluting our soil.

--Z, more Chiricahua than European.

Evidence: Sure: find a jr. high textbook from say, 1940 and compare it to one from today.

Taxes: I love posters who leave out vital data so that they can "cleverly" trap someone, then permitting them to shriek "wrong!!!" If this is the case (evidence!?) then why don't the citizens it is impacting DO something? I don't know the law in Ohio, but we have a sunshine law here and virtually anytime local politicos try and pull this BS, they find themselves dragged in chains onto the carpet. If you are too cowardly to do this in your state to your officials, don't blame me.

"Lousy product" refers to ALL American schools, on average. I was not picking on the Buckeyes! Calm down. Have another Keystone Lite. Light up a relaxing Salem.

Not sure what these next few paras of shrieking admonition are about, so I'll skip them.

Wrong. We PERMIT every child here to enter our public schools (this was fought out, and the NEA won...I wonder why they found this in their best interests?). These are the children of people here ILLEGALLY. No other nation on the planet handles aliens--legal or otherwise--this way. Go to Mexico and try to enter a public school there. If you are a non-citizen...you have to pay tuition to defray your costs.

And there it is..."RAAAACCCIIISTTTTT!!! Viva Aztlan!!! We are gonna take it back from you gabachos!!!"

LOL.

What a hysteric.

Tokie

 

[Tokenconservative]

Question:

Why is it if I identify someone for their political leanings and call them a "left-liberal" or "liberal" or even "socialist" that's an ad hom, most foul that is reported to the moderators?

When, with no evidence whatsoever, someone else shrieks that I am a "RAAAACCCIIISSSTTTTT" who should "GO HOME!!!" (...my great-great-great grandfather fought in the Revolutionary War...he was a Hessian, and therefore on the wrong side...but nonetheless...), that is "okay"?

Tokie

 

[Zep]

Hi Tokie! Do you mind if I just sit here and watch you rant for a while? Obviously you don't need us to provide either the questions or the answers. You just needed a soapbox.

:

http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/dba0048l.jpg

 

[Tokenconservative]

Do you always go off like this without actually addressing the questions?

Keep guessing. Oh, and a guess is not a "fact", btw.

So many errors, so little content. And it seems like you want to answer your own questions now; carry on your own conversation. So what was the point of you posting at all? Oh yes: to rant. Oh well. Carry on. When you are calmer we will talk some more.

You REALLY don't have a clue, do you. Just mindless ranting. Incidentally, it's spelled "disrupt". You should have paid attention in spelling class...

1. You'd have to be more specific and address the specific issue you are um, specifically shrieking about.

2. Really? A guess is not a fact? Has anyone told Hillary?

3. LOL. So that's the big finish...out of hundreds of words, you pick one I mispelled and shriek "see!!!?? SEEEEEE!!!??? Toldja!!! TOLDJA!!!! I'm right and you're wrong!!!!"

And then you call what _I_ posted a rant?

Wow.

Just....wow.

Tokie

 

[Tokenconservative]

Hi Tokie! Do you mind if I just sit here and watch you rant for a while? Obviously you don't need us to provide either the questions or the answers. You just needed a soapbox.

:

[qimg]http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/dba0048l.jpg[/qimg]
http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/dba0048l.jpg

Go right ahead. By the way, did you know that you can get a 20# bag of popcorn for about $6.00 at Sam's Club?

Actually, I always appreciate spirited, reasoned discourse. I don't often find it, primarily because of the forums I pick, but I still appreciate it. A few of the response posts in here have reached for that brass ring. Most have just shrieked the hoary, ever-expected "RAAAACCCCIIIISSSTTT!!! Go Home _gababho_!!!" cant at me, as people on "that" side of this argument must, because, clearly they really have no argument.

Best,
Tokie

 

[Tokenconservative]

Evidence, please?

Every child has a right to education, no matter why or how he's in the country.

Go back to Europe and quit polluting our soil.

--Z, more Chiricahua than European.

This is all very telling.

First, you have this person making this patently false assertion. There is NOTHNG in the US Constitution about education, in fact, therefore, every child does not have a "right" to a ("free") education here. Moreover...why stop with just the children of illegals? Why not, at our expense, bring in the child of anyone in the world who would like them to be educated here? If "every" child has a "right" to education, isn't that the logical conclusion?

Followed by accusing ME of racism, and in the same breath shrieking "go back to Europe!"

I ask you (well, anyone able to reason) who is demonstrating his/her racism here, me or this poster?

Tokie

 

[Zep]

1. You'd have to be more specific and address the specific issue you are um, specifically shrieking about.

Me? Shrieking? Oh, I see! That's a joke!

2. Really? A guess is not a fact? Has anyone told Hillary?

Hillary who? And this has to do with your OP how?

(I can see the real connection - you are just wanting to rant, so you will pick any nearby subject.)

3. LOL. So that's the big finish...out of hundreds of words, you pick one I mispelled and shriek "see!!!?? SEEEEEE!!!??? Toldja!!! TOLDJA!!!! I'm right and you're wrong!!!!"

"Big finish?" Tres amusement! I'm just waiting for you to blow off your steam before I even start.

And then you call what _I_ posted a rant?

Wow.

Just....wow.

Tokie

Do you actually have a irony-control knob on you somewhere? 'Cos it's stuck at 11... Looks like you're not ready to talk sensibly yet, so I'll give you a bit more time, OK?

 

[Zep]

Go right ahead. By the way, did you know that you can get a 20# bag of popcorn for about $6.00 at Sam's Club?

Where? Never heard of it...

Actually, I always appreciate spirited, reasoned discourse. I don't often find it, primarily because of the forums I pick, but I still appreciate it. A few of the response posts in here have reached for that brass ring. Most have just shrieked the hoary, ever-expected "RAAAACCCCIIIISSSTTT!!! Go Home _gababho_!!!" cant at me, as people on "that" side of this argument must, because, clearly they really have no argument.

Best,
Tokie

So let me get this straight - correct any errors here, please.

1) You "appreciate spirited reasoned discourse".

2) You are convinced "the other side" have no arguments to counter you whatsoever.

3) Every forum you have been to so far has ended up screaming ""RAAAACCCCIIIISSSTTT!!! Go Home" at you.

4) The same is happening here, nearly.

Correct so far?

 

[genesplicer]

If I could change one thing about our education system that might make it better, I would require all elected officials to send their children to public schools in their home districts...


As for the whole pay thing. I am well paid, when you look at my pay compared to the average for the city where I work. However, I am also paid less than half of what a comparably-educated professional such as doctor or lawyer is in this town, despite the fact I have had more education than the average lawyer, and as much as the average doctor...

Tokie says the school will run with full staff, even if it is empty. Nothing can be further from the truth. Each school is given a staff level based on number of students. Fewer students = fewer staff. Our school lost 2 teachers this year due to shifting population patterns. Another middle school gained 4. That's the way it goes in many places. No school would hang on to teachers because the union demanded it. They may negotiate the contracted maximum size of the class (mine is 36), but the district will definitely make sure there is a minimum, as well.

If classes are overcrowded, they will take the overflow and create a new class (Happened to me last year, I was asked to teach an extra period of 8th grade science.) If classes are too lean, they will consolidate and eliminate positions...


Another funny thing. All professionals are required to do continuing "Professional development" after they receive their credentials/licenses. This means taking refresher courses, learning new things, etc. Before I renewed my credential last time, I discovered that I was required to do twice as many professional development hours as a doctor, in order to renew my papers...



Oh, my ESL kids speak more than Spanish. Most do speak Spanish, but I also have French, Farsi, Russian, Hmong and indonesian. And that is just this year...

 

[Tokenconservative]

Me? Shrieking? Oh, I see! That's a joke!

Hillary who? And this has to do with your OP how?

(I can see the real connection - you are just wanting to rant, so you will pick any nearby subject.)

"Big finish?" Tres amusement! I'm just waiting for you to blow off your steam before I even start.

Do you actually have a irony-control knob on you somewhere? 'Cos it's stuck at 11... Looks like you're not ready to talk sensibly yet, so I'll give you a bit more time, OK?

Sorry...I guess I don't see the joke.

I hope you start soon....

Irony control knob?

I've used computers for nigh unto 20-25 years now...never seen one a them thar.

Tokie