Why Can't They Figure it Out?

[Tokenconservative]

Where? Never heard of it...

So let me get this straight - correct any errors here, please.

1) You "appreciate spirited reasoned discourse".

2) You are convinced "the other side" have no arguments to counter you whatsoever.

3) Every forum you have been to so far has ended up screaming ""RAAAACCCCIIIISSSTTT!!! Go Home" at you.

4) The same is happening here, nearly.

Correct so far?

1. Yes.

2. Well, let's see..YOU are on the other side, and so far your brilliant rebuttals have been limited to accusing me of engaging in a racist rant.

3. No.

4. Well, that's what's happening here, yes (gee...I can't IMAGINE where Zep is leading me with this clever line of questioning...how much Law & Order does this guy watch!?).

Tokie

 

[Professor Yaffle]

This is all very telling.

First, you have this person making this patently false assertion. There is NOTHNG in the US Constitution about education, in fact, therefore, every child does not have a "right" to a ("free") education here. Moreover...why stop with just the children of illegals? Why not, at our expense, bring in the child of anyone in the world who would like them to be educated here? If "every" child has a "right" to education, isn't that the logical conclusion?

There may be nothing in the US constitution but from the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child:

Article 28 states the child's right to education, and says it shall be on the basis of equal opportunity.

Article 29 states that a child's education should be directed at developing the child's personality and talents, and mental and physical abilities to their 'fullest potential'. It also states that education shall prepare the child for an active and responsible life as an adult, fostering respect for basic human rights and developing respect for the child's own cultural and national values and those of others.

But then, the US is one of only 2 countries (the other being Somalia) which has not ratified the agreement (it is signed but not yet ratified).

 

[Tokenconservative]

If I could change one thing about our education system that might make it better, I would require all elected officials to send their children to public schools in their home districts...

As for the whole pay thing. I am well paid, when you look at my pay compared to the average for the city where I work. However, I am also paid less than half of what a comparably-educated professional such as doctor or lawyer is in this town, despite the fact I have had more education than the average lawyer, and as much as the average doctor...

Tokie says the school will run with full staff, even if it is empty. Nothing can be further from the truth. Each school is given a staff level based on number of students. Fewer students = fewer staff. Our school lost 2 teachers this year due to shifting population patterns. Another middle school gained 4. That's the way it goes in many places. No school would hang on to teachers because the union demanded it. They may negotiate the contracted maximum size of the class (mine is 36), but the district will definitely make sure there is a minimum, as well.

If classes are overcrowded, they will take the overflow and create a new class (Happened to me last year, I was asked to teach an extra period of 8th grade science.) If classes are too lean, they will consolidate and eliminate positions...

Another funny thing. All professionals are required to do continuing "Professional development" after they receive their credentials/licenses. This means taking refresher courses, learning new things, etc. Before I renewed my credential last time, I discovered that I was required to do twice as many professional development hours as a doctor, in order to renew my papers...

Oh, my ESL kids speak more than Spanish. Most do speak Spanish, but I also have French, Farsi, Russian, Hmong and indonesian. And that is just this year...

1. I like that idea from an emotional level, but there's no reason to make the children of these people suffer. Most of these kids can't stand their parents, either.

2. Then...switch jobs. I am better educated than the average mason or plumber here, and any of them with the same number of years under their belt doing their job who is not making 2-3x what I do, is not doing their job very well. If you want to find someone to blame for you "low" (comparative) pay, I suggest the next time you get your monthly newsletter from the NEA, you remember this converstation.

3. Again. I am talking about where I live. And here, that's exactly what they've BEEN doing. Lately, once this became widley known, they've had to stop doing it. We had a "failing" school here with a student:teacher ratio of 12:1. The reason was because as the population of the school dropped dramatically (both because of neighborhood demographics AND because smart people were taking their kids elsewhere) the teachers employed there remained the same. Here, the reason they were "haning onto" these teachers was because the union (NEA) told them they had to. I'm sorry you don't like or don't believe that, and will now shriek for a link--LIIIIINNKKKKKKK!!!--but that's the way it is not only here, but many other places. You are apparently in a smaller area where the community retains more control.

CE: I am required to do this sort of stuff periodically as well. It's a good idea in SOME cases. And so you do more than a doctor...but...I though yours was the most important profession, so why shouldn't you? By the way, this stuff is very rarely set up according to what's actually needed, but instead according to what the CE companies want. If they get a politician in your state in their pocket, you have to take more classes.

Language: yeah, there is a very large Russian/Ukrainian/Armenian/Georgian immigrant population here. They speak their native languages, AND English. Also...how many ESL classes does your school have in Farsi, Russian, French...? Our schools have um..well, at last count, none. We only have ESL classes for SPANISH-speaking students for some reason. And for some reason, the kids who speak Russian etc., get along just fine. Taught a girl Bosnia a few years ago. She'd witnesse her entire family being beheaded, raped, chopped up etc. and had escaped being butchered (she did not escape being gang raped at 11 yrs of age) by hinding under the bleeding bodies of her parents and siblings. She spoke...Bosnian. That's all. She earned straight As. She was a very nice little girl who did not flash gang signs or get into fights with other girls every day.

Hmmmm....

Tokie

 

[Tokenconservative]

There may be nothing in the US constitution but from the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child:

Hmmmm...I guess I missed the memo. When, precisely, did the UN take precedence over the US Constitution in the US?

Do you have link--LIIIIINNNKKKKKKKK!!!!--to that memo?

Tokie

 

[Tokenconservative]

There may be nothing in the US constitution but from the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child:

So that means that Mexico, say...is ignoring the UN mandate?

They offer public education only to the 8th grade. Shouldn't something be done about this?

Or...IS something being done?

Tokie

 

[FenrisWolf]

2. Then...switch jobs. [...] If you want to find someone to blame for you "low" (comparative) pay, I suggest the next time you get your monthly newsletter from the NEA, you remember this converstation.

If all the good teachers change jobs to get higher pay, how does that help the situation? And note that private schools pay teachers LESS than public (unionized) schools. So switch jobs to where, exactly?

We had a "failing" school here with a student:teacher ratio of 12:1. The reason was because as the population of the school dropped dramatically (both because of neighborhood demographics AND because smart people were taking their kids elsewhere) the teachers employed there remained the same. Here, the reason they were "haning onto" these teachers was because the union (NEA) told them they had to. I'm sorry you don't like or don't believe that, and will now shriek for a link--LIIIIINNKKKKKKK!!!--but that's the way it is not only here, but many other places. You are apparently in a smaller area where the community retains more control.

Do you know where you are? This is a skeptic's board, and screaming for links is entirely appropriate. If you don't like it, don't post here.

Second, your "smaller area" comment makes me laugh. I live in Los Angeles, and teacher population is tied to student enrollment here. When enrollment drops, teachers are let go. So if this isn't happening in your area, let me quote some advice you gave in this thread back at you: "If you are too cowardly to do this in your state to your officials, don't blame me."

Taught a girl Bosnia a few years ago. She'd witnesse her entire family being beheaded, raped, chopped up etc. and had escaped being butchered (she did not escape being gang raped at 11 yrs of age) by hinding under the bleeding bodies of her parents and siblings. She spoke...Bosnian. That's all. She earned straight As. She was a very nice little girl who did not flash gang signs or get into fights with other girls every day.

What conclusion do you draw from this charming anecdote? Assuming your point is that Mexican children are inferior to Bosnian children, what remedy to fix this do you suggest? Maybe Mexican immigrant girls should have their family beheaded and be gang-raped at 11 so that they do better in school?

(See, I can jump to incorrect conclusions from anecdotal evidence, too!)

 

[Professor Yaffle]

Oh I wasn't wanting to get into a peeing competition about which country provides the best education. Just trying to give an indication of what most decent people would consider a basic human right - regardless of whether it is legally enforced.

 

[fishbob]

. . . in the meantime, schools in places like where I live, are falling apart and those who have an actual right to be there are getting a(n even more) sub-standard education because of the overwhelming presence of these people.

Yes. I said "these people." I must be a RAAAACCCIIIISSTTTTTTTTTT!!!

Underfunded schools in poor neighborhoods have been falling apart and providing sub-standard education for at least the last 40 years. So yeah - seems that way. Or is this more of that hyperbole stuff* you are so fond of?

*100% fact free.

 

[Zep]

Sorry...I guess I don't see the joke.

I hope you start soon....

Irony control knob?

I've used computers for nigh unto 20-25 years now...never seen one a them thar.

Tokie

No, I guess you don't see the joke. Most clowns can't see their own funny face without a mirror. And I've been a professional computer manager for over 32 years, so you're just a newbie user to me.

1) You "appreciate spirited reasoned discourse".

1. Yes.

You appreciate it, but can you actually do it?

2) You are convinced "the other side" have no arguments to counter you whatsoever.

2. Well, let's see..YOU are on the other side, and so far your brilliant rebuttals have been limited to accusing me of engaging in a racist rant.

Wrong on two counts. You are the one who has put me on "the other side", not me. And as for racist rants, that seems to be you inventing stuff out of thin air. perhaps you could point out where I have actually accused you of any racist rant? Hmmm? And I take it you will be retracting and apologising shortly? Thanks.

3) Every forum you have been to so far has ended up screaming ""RAAAACCCCIIIISSSTTT!!! Go Home" at you.

3. No.

Good. Remember you said that, OK?

4) The same is happening here, nearly.

4. Well, that's what's happening here, yes (gee...I can't IMAGINE where Zep is leading me with this clever line of questioning...how much Law & Order does this guy watch!?).

What clever line of questioning? I'm merely trying to understand why you are getting yourself all worked up over imaginary slights you invented yourself out of thin air, then having a little tantrum because of that. And why that seems to happen everywhere you go.

And I have never watched that show. Really. So your jibe is wasted.

 

[Tokenconservative]

If all the good teachers change jobs to get higher pay, how does that help the situation? And note that private schools pay teachers LESS than public (unionized) schools. So switch jobs to where, exactly?

Do you know where you are? This is a skeptic's board, and screaming for links is entirely appropriate. If you don't like it, don't post here.

Second, your "smaller area" comment makes me laugh. I live in Los Angeles, and teacher population is tied to student enrollment here. When enrollment drops, teachers are let go. So if this isn't happening in your area, let me quote some advice you gave in this thread back at you: "If you are too cowardly to do this in your state to your officials, don't blame me."

What conclusion do you draw from this charming anecdote? Assuming your point is that Mexican children are inferior to Bosnian children, what remedy to fix this do you suggest? Maybe Mexican immigrant girls should have their family beheaded and be gang-raped at 11 so that they do better in school?

(See, I can jump to incorrect conclusions from anecdotal evidence, too!)

Switch to one of those medical or law jobs.

Yes... private schools pay considerably less. And you get a much better product from most.

Funny that.

I like it just fine. Dun't mean I will post any links--LIIIIIINNNNKKKKSSSSSSSS!!!!--but I like it.

That's good to hear considering a socialist runs the unified LA system. In any case, you are right, that's what we should do around here. Many of us (like me) have worked for years to change that system. Alas, we just stupidly elected a Dem gov and gave the Dems control of our state legislature (what you call an assembly). So...that's not gonna happen now.

In fact, here is what the local paper is reporting today, on this very subject in our capitol city's school district: that while school enrollment is at an all-time low, and at least eight (count 'em, 8!) schools have such low populations they SHOULD be shut down, now schools will be shuttered.

Now, of course the teachers/union say this is because they want to serve the children. Any rational thinker scoffs at this. Rational thinkers realize that if they close these schools, a couple of hundred teachers will be out pounding the pavement. And since the city is run by an extremely left-liberal mayor who is a wholly-owned subsidiary of first, the Mexican Consulate here, and second, the NEA (and it's state version) and given that the Dem president of our state legislature is a former teacher and former pres. of the state chapter of the NEA...what do you think the chances are that they will put a couple of hundred teachers out of work are?

Do the terms "nil" and "none" mean anything to you?

Mexican children are not inferior to Bosnian children. Mexican culture, is another thing. Mexican culture, actually, sees little benefit in educating mere girls, anyway. The point is, most of the Mexicans who come here are far better off in the first place (despite the myths) than was this child. Somehow, she managed to pull straight As in a language she only barely understood without ANY ESL...I wonder how?

Tokie

 

[Tokenconservative]

No, I guess you don't see the joke. Most clowns can't see their own funny face without a mirror. And I've been a professional computer manager for over 32 years, so you're just a newbie user to me.

You appreciate it, but can you actually do it?

Wrong on two counts. You are the one who has put me on "the other side", not me. And as for racist rants, that seems to be you inventing stuff out of thin air. perhaps you could point out where I have actually accused you of any racist rant? Hmmm? And I take it you will be retracting and apologising shortly? Thanks.

Good. Remember you said that, OK?

What clever line of questioning? I'm merely trying to understand why you are getting yourself all worked up over imaginary slights you invented yourself out of thin air, then having a little tantrum because of that. And why that seems to happen everywhere you go.

And I have never watched that show. Really. So your jibe is wasted.

LOL!

I love stuff like this. Oooohhhh! A PROFESSIONAL computer managers (whateverthehellthatis)!! I am soooo impressed.

Sheesh.

If you are not among those shrieking (and filling the moderator's mailbox with complaints) that I am a RAAAACCCIIIISSTTTTTTTT!!! I do apologize. One tends to lose count when slaying Orcs left and right, you know.

Given the way this forum quotes things, it might be a good idea to re-reference, in the text, when you are firing off pithy one-line retorts. I have no idea what you are um...retorting so pithily about here.

I'm not the one in high dudgeon over some upstart computer newbie...and in those 32 years, by the way...where's that key?

Perry Mason then?

Tokie

 

[Tokenconservative]

Underfunded schools in poor neighborhoods have been falling apart and providing sub-standard education for at least the last 40 years. So yeah - seems that way. Or is this more of that hyperbole stuff* you are so fond of?

*100% fact free.

Now, I guess I am confused...you say that underfunded schools are falling apart and providing poor education for the past 40 years,...and so do I, and you identify that statement as "100% fact free."

So, are we both inaccurate, or liars?

Of course, if you know anything about high-use buildings such as schools, you know that regardless of where they are or who is using them, they start "falling apart" from the day they are opened. And well-funded schools, by the way, are ALSO turning out a poor product (the one post in here talks about the $13k/head they spend in DC schools, which are unequaled anywhere in the nation for doing the very worst possible job).

The issue is what is going on inside schools, poor, rich or in-between, before the actual physical structures are ground into dust. And on this, we seem to agree: not much that's very good.

Tokie

 

[Zep]

LOL!

I love stuff like this. Oooohhhh! A PROFESSIONAL computer managers (whateverthehellthatis)!! I am soooo impressed.

OK, I'll explain for the stupido. It means I get paid to fix up the mistakes of people like you, and show them where and why they went wrong. But enough about me; lets get back to chatting with you.

Sheesh.

If you are not among those shrieking (and filling the moderator's mailbox with complaints) that I am a RAAAACCCIIIISSTTTTTTTT!!! I do apologize. One tends to lose count when slaying Orcs left and right, you know.

Thank you. Perhaps it might be a moment for you to reconsider why you decided to be a Vogon. Personally, you are little more than a few minute's harmless diversion from real life.

Given the way this forum quotes things, it might be a good idea to re-reference, in the text, when you are firing off pithy one-line retorts. I have no idea what you are um...retorting so pithily about here.

So it would seem. Well, how about you make it an exercise to go back and reread the thread and find out?

I'm not the one in high dudgeon over some upstart computer newbie...and in those 32 years, by the way...where's that key?

Oh so I'm in "high dudgeon" now? Project much? Unless you mean some town in the UK...just near Great Dudgeon, I imagine.

Perry Mason then?

Nope, but feel free to keep on guessing. It's fun watching you flounder.

 

[fishbob]

Now, I guess I am confused...

Apparently.

You said:

in the meantime, schools in places like where I live, are falling apart and those who have an actual right to be there are getting a(n even more) sub-standard education because of the overwhelming presence of these people.

I said:

Underfunded schools in poor neighborhoods have been falling apart and providing sub-standard education for at least the last 40 years.

The presence of "these people" might not necessarily be the reason for sub-standard education. You might want to take a look at the facts before so freely assigning blame.

 

[fuelair]

http://www.equaleducation.org/commentary.asp?opedid=1332

That should be freely available. It's the article I was thinking of and when I pull it up through the databases, the son of a bitch lists no cites.

However, I found another article by him that does list cites. If you'd like to read it for yourself:



But here's the part you're asking about from the first one:



I also have, though:



Let me know if you want more, but if you have access to a database or your library does, that should be enough for you to find those articles at least.

Just as a quick response, I notice That the phrases "do not lower and "might" are used. What I will see if I can find is whether there is an unequivocal statement on it - and what I suspect (since I have seen no really specific data - even in the samples you kindly gave me) is that there will not be one (that will not affect me in my hunt _ I learned a long time ago not to let suspicions/biases/beliefs overwhelm accuracy and I value my research skills to much to let something like that affect me/the research.) By the by, the reasons I suspect there will be no real studies is I, at this point, have taught a long time in situations where the persons from a poverty background behaved as they are taught in that background (which is perfectly (for analysis of this, hunt up and read Ruby Payne who writes and consults on poverty and it's effects on school (not hard statistics though) normal for them) and that includes actions (calling out//expecting sharing of material things -esp. food/money// trying to entertain the class and such - all of which have value in their home environment but are disruptive in the normal school environment. Those behaviors do not tend to make the children from mc/uppermc comfortable, ergo I would expect lowered grade/learning at best. (Note, this is definitely not anti anyone - our school has paid good money as have most of the local systems to train us in what to expect based on the sociology of people from both long-term (multi-generational) poverty, shorter-term poverty and immediate but likely very short-term poverty. The group I note above show the signs of multi-generational.)

 

[Zep]

NICE parentheses!

 

[LostAngeles]

Just as a quick response, I notice That the phrases "do not lower and "might" are used. What I will see if I can find is whether there is an unequivocal statement on it - and what I suspect (since I have seen no really specific data - even in the samples you kindly gave me) is that there will not be one (that will not affect me in my hunt _ I learned a long time ago not to let suspicions/biases/beliefs overwhelm accuracy and I value my research skills to much to let something like that affect me/the research.) By the by, the reasons I suspect there will be no real studies is I, at this point, have taught a long time in situations where the persons from a poverty background behaved as they are taught in that background (which is perfectly (for analysis of this, hunt up and read Ruby Payne who writes and consults on poverty and it's effects on school (not hard statistics though) normal for them) and that includes actions (calling out//expecting sharing of material things -esp. food/money// trying to entertain the class and such - all of which have value in their home environment but are disruptive in the normal school environment. Those behaviors do not tend to make the children from mc/uppermc comfortable, ergo I would expect lowered grade/learning at best. (Note, this is definitely not anti anyone - our school has paid good money as have most of the local systems to train us in what to expect based on the sociology of people from both long-term (multi-generational) poverty, shorter-term poverty and immediate but likely very short-term poverty. The group I note above show the signs of multi-generational.)

True. Research in the social sciences, while very helpful, is very easily muddled by other factors that are harder to isolate than muddling factors in the, "hard," sciences.

That's part of why I'm a math major.

I can speak anecdotally when it comes to some of the behaviors and patterns I've seen, but it's anecdotes.

 

[bpesta22]

The only factor that has been consistently correlated with academic achievement is socio-economic status.

The only only other factor correlated with academic achievement would be IQ.

The problem is naive empiricism; the notion that if all little johnnies got the same quality education, all little johnnies would achieve the same.

Alas, not so. Those born with higher IQ's will benefit more from extra funding and suffer less from things like large classrooms. The fix environmentally just widens the gap-- ironically, the more we seek to equate educational experience, the more the difference will emerge.

If purists would entertain the thought that some non-trivial chunk of IQ comes from sheer luck (i.e., genes) then the failures here make complete sense. Perhaps IQ causes SES and not vice versa?

How many billions more do we have to spend before we admit it?

Could we shift some of the $ to basic research on intelligence? The answer needs to be scientific not political.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

The only only other factor correlated with academic achievement would be IQ.

The problem is naive empiricism; the notion that if all little johnnies got the same quality education, all little johnnies would achieve the same.

Alas, not so. Those born with higher IQ's will benefit more from extra funding and suffer less from things like large classrooms. The fix environmentally just widens the gap-- ironically, the more we seek to equate educational experience, the more the difference will emerge.

If purists would entertain the thought that some non-trivial chunk of IQ comes from sheer luck (i.e., genes) then the failures here make complete sense. Perhaps IQ causes SES and not vice versa?

How many billions more do we have to spend before we admit it?

Could we shift some of the $ to basic research on intelligence? The answer needs to be scientific not political.

IQ tests are highly unreliable and your assertion is not well supported by the evidence. Study after study show that it is socio-economic status which is most strongly correlated with academic success. As education can increase measured IQ scores, IQ is a miserable measure.

 

[bpesta22]

IQ tests are highly unreliable and your assertion is not well supported by the evidence. Study after study show that it is socio-economic status which is most strongly correlated with academic success. As education can increase measured IQ scores, IQ is a miserable measure.

We must be reading different literatures. Even the APA conceded that IQ and educational achievement are strongly related (.5 for gpa; .55 for years education) and conceded that no environmental intervention has been capable of raising IQ in the long run.

If it interests you and doesn't seem like a derail, please cite some studies showing that education increases one's IQ (I'd argue the cause goes the other way).

I'd have to dig it up, but I remember reading a study where IQ predicted grades after controlling for ses, but ses no longer predicted grades after controlling for IQ.