Why can't Corbyn connect with public?

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

But you don't understand that he won 3 general elections! And he also set up sure start, which means he is the greatest prime minister ever.

Well he was probably a mixed bag as PM and it shouldn't be forgotten that he did actually manage to get Labour elected. There is certainly an argument that even a centre(-right) Labour government is better than a hard-right Tory government but I think that ignores the longer term issues of this approach.

 

[Aber]

No this is not what I am saying and it wasn't what I was arguing with either.

The Labour party manifesto is not an extreme left one by any sensible measure. It can only be defined as such if you take the centre to be somewhere off to the right. It may be further to the left than Blair but that's fairly meaningless.

On the other hand, the Tories are proposing some fairly extreme right stuff and May has been a cheerleader for some pretty extreme stuff in the past.

This discussion isn't going to move forward unless you start giving specific examples of what you consider "extreme right wing stuff" and "extreme left wing" stuff.

 

[dudalb]

I think we have a few people here whose opinions are much farther to the left then most UK voters, and they are buying into the old,old, "lost tribe" theory of politics.....that there is a vast,hidden, hard left vote in the UK, which just needs the proper leader to bring it out.
Funny how that almost never works out in reality.

 

[NWO Sentryman]

Well he was probably a mixed bag as PM and it shouldn't be forgotten that he did actually manage to get Labour elected. There is certainly an argument that even a centre(-right) Labour government is better than a hard-right Tory government but I think that ignores the longer term issues of this approach.

Looking back, New Labour was a complete failure.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

I think we have a few people here whose opinions are much farther to the left then most UK voters, and they are buying into the old,old, "lost tribe" theory of politics.....that there is a vast,hidden, hard left vote in the UK, which just needs the proper leader to bring it out.
Funny how that almost never works out in reality.

I can't see where you have got that theory from. Nobody seems to have said anything like that.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

This discussion isn't going to move forward unless you start giving specific examples of what you consider "extreme right wing stuff" and "extreme left wing" stuff.

I thought I had earlier.

 

[MikeG]

I think we have a few people here whose opinions are much farther to the left then most UK voters,

I'm certain you are right on this.

and they are buying into the old,old, "lost tribe" theory of politics.....that there is a vast,hidden, hard left vote in the UK, which just needs the proper leader to bring it out.

I'm not so sure. I don't think they care any more. I think that so long as the purity of the group and the message is maintained they don't give a monkeys whether anyone agrees with them or not. It's very self-congratulatory and inward looking, and there is no great interest in achieving power. Indeed, there is some sort of implicit disdain for the compromises that government entails, and rather than have a somewhat softened leftist agenda and be in power, they'd rather stay true to "the message" and remain forever sniping from the sidelines.

Funny how that almost never works out in reality.

As I said, they don't really want it to.

 

[Aber]

I thought I had earlier.

You made 4 claims about the Conservatives and their policies


You didn't give any examples of what you considered extreme left.

 

[Giz]

Indeed, there is some sort of implicit disdain for the compromises that government entails, and rather than have a somewhat softened leftist agenda and be in power, they'd rather stay true to "the message" and remain forever sniping from the sidelines.

I don't think it counts as implicit when folks are shouting "Red Tory" and saying that Blairites are basically no better/different than Tories... that's pretty darn explicit.

 

[Giz]

Looking back, New Labour was a complete failure.

Apart from gay rights, UK citizenship for overseas territories, halving child poverty, independent Bank of England, peace in Northern Ireland...

 

[dudalb]

Apart from gay rights, UK citizenship for overseas territories, halving child poverty, independent Bank of England, peace in Northern Ireland...

But it did not create a Socialist Utopia.therefore it is a failure

 

[MikeG]

Apart from gay rights, UK citizenship for overseas territories, halving child poverty, independent Bank of England, peace in Northern Ireland...

People conveniently forget the two military interventions which were extremely successful: Sierra Leone, and Kosovo. They also introduced the National Minimum Wage, boosted school performance by any and every measure, wrote off the international debt of many of the world's poorest countries, devolved power to Scotland and Wales, introduced paternity leave and pay, restored the governance of London, made binding commitments on the Kyoto protocol regarding greenhouse gases, doubled the overseas aid budget, introduced free nursery places for toddlers, introduced Surestart (I'm not saying that's a big plus!)...........and built the Millenium Dome.

 

[NWO Sentryman]

Apart from gay rights, UK citizenship for overseas territories, halving child poverty, independent Bank of England, peace in Northern Ireland...

Other than that (Iraq) Mrs Lincoln, how was the play?

Education and NHS funded by the boondoggle that was PFI, cash for peerages, corruption, starting a war over a messiah complex, ******** the bed for UK attitudes towards the EU, creeping authoritarianism, incestuous relationship with Rupert Murdoch, *********** up immigration policies, giving bankers carte blanche, rendering Labour toxic for a generation.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

You made 4 claims about the Conservatives and their policies


You didn't give any examples of what you considered extreme left.

Extreme left to me would be anti capitalist stuff. Nationalisation of large chunks of industry. Punitive tax rates. Seizing assets.

A lot of the distinction is in degree. To me if you are extreme left you have to be to the left of things that would be considered normal in Scandinavia say.

Perhaps those who accuse Corbyn of being extreme left could suggest a handful of Labours proposals that they consider to be so?

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

But it did not create a Socialist Utopia.therefore it is a failure

It's getting slightly annoying that you continually strawman the arguments being made . Again no has said such a thing and legitimate criticisms were made. Perhaps you would care to address those instead?

 

[dudalb]

Let's forget whether Corbyn;s opinions are right or wrong. He is a horrible spokesman/advocate for them,and has an inability to appeal to anybody beyond the hard line Laborites.
Anybody who thinks this is unimportant in the world of politics is living in another reality.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Let's forget whether Corbyn;s opinions are right or wrong. He is a horrible spokesman/advocate for them,and has an inability to appeal to anybody beyond the hard line Laborites.
Anybody who thinks this is unimportant in the world of politics is living in another reality.

In the upcoming election I'd rather people didn't forget about whether his proposals are right or wrong and just focus on the presentation above all else.

Because what that gets you is a government that is very wrong.

We can spend all day talking about how the better option isn't perfect while the bad guy walks off with the prize as we just saw happen in the States.

 

[jimbob]

I think we have a few people here whose opinions are much farther to the left then most UK voters, and they are buying into the old,old, "lost tribe" theory of politics.....that there is a vast,hidden, hard left vote in the UK, which just needs the proper leader to bring it out.
Funny how that almost never works out in reality.

I think I have spotted a flaw in that plan

 

[dudalb]

In the upcoming election I'd rather people didn't forget about whether his proposals are right or wrong and just focus on the presentation above all else.

Because what that gets you is a government that is very wrong.

We can spend all day talking about how the better option isn't perfect while the bad guy walks off with the prize as we just saw happen in the States.

You just don't get that presentation is very important in convincing people that your proposols are right, do you?
You are so commited to your ideology that you cannot imagine that other people don't agree with you and need to be convinced. THis is why hard line ideologues are often the worst advocates for their point of view.

 

[MCel58]

The problem is that Governments now get elected on slogans and appearance over substance. So as long as Theresa May actually doesn't say anything but repeats her mantra providing the worst sort of subliminal advertising she will appear strong. However, every time she says anything with any policy behind it then it will be shown that she is also not a strong leader as in her radio question session with voters on the NHS yesterday.
At this point we know nothing about any of the Tories policies except their immigration target which they have consistently failed to meet. Her EU approach is at best seriously flawed and she appears to have nothing new to offer but I am waiting to see their manifesto. So at present she sticks to the mantra in very controlled environments and everybody falls for the worst marketing techniques in the world.