Whoa, am I psychic?
- Thread starter Hawkeye
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SamanthaMc
Critical Thinker
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No, no one asked me, but I found Randi's response both to Hawkeye and in the commentary to be rather flippant and dismissive. He has many great qualities, but he seems somewhat condescending to me.
As a lurker, occasionally it does seem that some forumites aren't as skeptical when it comes to folks they admire like James Randi. I am neither a huge Randi enthusiast nor a dissenter. I think he made an error that was likely more than an innocent one, but it’s not a big deal.
For those of you who insist that mountains are being made of molehills, I ask if you would feel the same way if you were on Sylvia Browne’s forum and she had done the same thing. I'm just wondering.
As a lurker, occasionally it does seem that some forumites aren't as skeptical when it comes to folks they admire like James Randi. I am neither a huge Randi enthusiast nor a dissenter. I think he made an error that was likely more than an innocent one, but it’s not a big deal.
For those of you who insist that mountains are being made of molehills, I ask if you would feel the same way if you were on Sylvia Browne’s forum and she had done the same thing. I'm just wondering.
rjh01
Gentleman of leisure
This is skepticism at its best. Certain people thought this incident was a major issue. We discussed it and I think most people have been persuaded that it is only a minor issue that has now been dealt with.
Unless of course someone wants to raise the issue of the real name of Hawkeye? <rjh01 ducks and runs away.>
Thanks also to The Vampire for what he said in post 44.
Unless of course someone wants to raise the issue of the real name of Hawkeye? <rjh01 ducks and runs away.>
Thanks also to The Vampire for what he said in post 44.
Jackalgirl
Graduate Poster
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No, no one asked me, but I found Randi's response both to Hawkeye and in the commentary to be rather flippant and dismissive. He has many great qualities, but he seems somewhat condescending to me.
As a lurker, occasionally it does seem that some forumites aren't as skeptical when it comes to folks they admire like James Randi. I am neither a huge Randi enthusiast nor a dissenter. I think he made an error that was likely more than an innocent one, but it’s not a big deal.
For those of you who insist that mountains are being made of molehills, I ask if you would feel the same way if you were on Sylvia Browne’s forum and she had done the same thing. I'm just wondering.
SamanthaMC, I have to say that I agree with you in this sense. I think it's not a big deal EITHER accept that I agree that /I myself/ have salivated over finding out, for example, that Sylvia Browne has actively engaged in plagiarism in her books. I have to be honest; in reading Randi's explanation and commentary, I understand where he's coming from, but had I heard that coming from Sylvia, I'd be upset. So the whole episode still bothers me.
I think the part that was a good demonstration of skepticism was that the posters reserved judgement on the issue - until after hearing Randi's response to Hawkeye and after this week's SWIFT came out - while waiting for more information.
I didn't see any persuasion, though. The same people that were uncomfortable with his response before are saying the same thing now (of those that have responded). But then I didn't see anyone say this was a major issue, either.
Linda
I still don't get it.
I keep reading Hawkeye's posts and the comparison with what Randi had in his commentary, and I still don't get why he made all those changes. It would have been a non-issue if he had dropped both posts in there unchanged and merely forgot to attribute them to Hawkeye. Obvious oversight. It would not have been much of an issue if he had made a few grammatical corrections as well. But there are quite a few changes and many of them not necessarily much better than the original. What was he thinking whilst he was making the changes? Why would he make so many seemingly unnecessary changes in Hawkeye's posts if he intended to attribute it but merely forgot to do so? If he was intending to attribute Hawkeye but merely forgot why make all those changes? Does he usually do that with quotes that he attributes?
It actually looks like the changes Randi made to Hawkeye's posts are intended to make it look like he wrote them himself. But I can't understand why he would do so. The only way he would not be found out is if Hawkeye failed to read the commentary that week. Nuts.
As I said, I don't get it.
Originally Posted by Hawkeye
Originally Posted by Randi
"It was not stressed enough [meaning by Randi]" becomes "The plain fact is that"
"shut him up" becomes "shut me up"
"his money" becomes "the JREF money"
Does this look like he is changing Hawkeye's post to make it look like he wrote it himself or doesn't it? So what the hell is going on here? Why would he make these changes if he intended to attribute the post but forgot?
Originally Posted by Hawkeye
Originally Posted by Randi
"Hmmm, that sounds...like" becomes "Friends, that sounds...like"
"every psychic out there" becomes "every psychic whose claims I question"
"the one you happen to be talking to" becomes "the one I'm talking to"
The same thing seems to be happening here. Randi is changing Hawkeye's post to make it look like he wrote it himself.
Please can someone explain this???
losing it,
BillyJoe
I keep reading Hawkeye's posts and the comparison with what Randi had in his commentary, and I still don't get why he made all those changes. It would have been a non-issue if he had dropped both posts in there unchanged and merely forgot to attribute them to Hawkeye. Obvious oversight. It would not have been much of an issue if he had made a few grammatical corrections as well. But there are quite a few changes and many of them not necessarily much better than the original. What was he thinking whilst he was making the changes? Why would he make so many seemingly unnecessary changes in Hawkeye's posts if he intended to attribute it but merely forgot to do so? If he was intending to attribute Hawkeye but merely forgot why make all those changes? Does he usually do that with quotes that he attributes?
It actually looks like the changes Randi made to Hawkeye's posts are intended to make it look like he wrote them himself. But I can't understand why he would do so. The only way he would not be found out is if Hawkeye failed to read the commentary that week. Nuts.
As I said, I don't get it.
Originally Posted by Hawkeye
Originally Posted by Randi
"It was not stressed enough [meaning by Randi]" becomes "The plain fact is that"
"shut him up" becomes "shut me up"
"his money" becomes "the JREF money"
Does this look like he is changing Hawkeye's post to make it look like he wrote it himself or doesn't it? So what the hell is going on here? Why would he make these changes if he intended to attribute the post but forgot?
Originally Posted by Hawkeye
Originally Posted by Randi
"Hmmm, that sounds...like" becomes "Friends, that sounds...like"
"every psychic out there" becomes "every psychic whose claims I question"
"the one you happen to be talking to" becomes "the one I'm talking to"
The same thing seems to be happening here. Randi is changing Hawkeye's post to make it look like he wrote it himself.
Please can someone explain this???
losing it,
BillyJoe
rjh01
Gentleman of leisure
I will have a guess at answering BillyJoe's question. I make no judgements.
Randi has very good communication skills. Better than most of us. He cannot have a little bit of Swift written in any other style other than his own. Human pride would not allow it. It would also read wrong. So he spent five minutes changing the style.
Certain changes he had to make.
1. Make it a little more formal, like remove the word 'awful'.
2. Change 'Randi' to 'I'. Other similar changes.
3. ~~~~~~~~~ (I leave this to your imagination.)
Randi has very good communication skills. Better than most of us. He cannot have a little bit of Swift written in any other style other than his own. Human pride would not allow it. It would also read wrong. So he spent five minutes changing the style.
Certain changes he had to make.
1. Make it a little more formal, like remove the word 'awful'.
2. Change 'Randi' to 'I'. Other similar changes.
3. ~~~~~~~~~ (I leave this to your imagination.)
rjh01
Gentleman of leisure
As for someone saying this is a major issue please read posts 10, 11 (maybe), 19, 28, 32, 45. Post 28 says
Others say similar things.
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baron
Unregistered
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- 8,627
Actually, after reading this week's commentary, I'd like to revise my opinion from "no big deal but an apology would be nice" to "it stinks".
Instead of an apology we get yet more excuses and an attack on those "Forum Watchdogs" who dare to express their views (or "bark" as Randi states).
Randi states "the Forum has been mumbling about plagiarism"; well, I'm not mumbling about plagiarism, I'm mumbling about arrogance and basic courtesy.
Still, Randi "won’t be losing any sleep over it" so that's OK then.
Instead of an apology we get yet more excuses and an attack on those "Forum Watchdogs" who dare to express their views (or "bark" as Randi states).
Randi states "the Forum has been mumbling about plagiarism"; well, I'm not mumbling about plagiarism, I'm mumbling about arrogance and basic courtesy.
Still, Randi "won’t be losing any sleep over it" so that's OK then.
I don't know about "usually" but I know he tidied up one quote of mine he used and reworded it slightly (he did not change the meaning).
rjh01
Gentleman of leisure
But did he say you wrote it or did it appear to outsiders that he wrote it? That is the critical issue.
My response was in regards to BillyJoe's question "Does he usually do that with quotes that he attributes?".
I don't understand why he had to change anything.
If he is actually quoting Hawkeye, why would he have to change it to fit his (Randi's) style? Why not just leave it in Hawkeye's style since he is the one who wrote it? It wouldn't read wrong then. It would just read like it was written by Hawkeye, like it's supposed to. And changing "Randi" to "I" makes it look like Randi has written it himself. If he then attributes it to Hawkeye, then it wouldn't read right. It would read as if Hawkeye wrote it as if he (Hawkeye) was Randi.
It just doesn't make sense.
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He attributed it to you so presumably he didn't make changes that made it look that he wrote it himself. So why in this case? Do you see my point? If he was going to attribute it to Hawkeye, why did he change it to look like he had written it himself?
Okay. So there doesn't seem to be any way these posters could have said anything without it being characterized as though they thought it was a major incident.
That you and Randi and others have responded to people saying, "this bugs me" with "quit making such a big deal of it", is the part that is irksome. This should have been a slam dunk for Randi. It was a minor mistake made under circumstances that were easy to correct (a follow-up statement in the next SWIFT vs. Sylvia's already published book). Hawkeye was truly forgiving and gracious, no part of Randi's reputation was staked on whether or not he had come up with this particular turn of phrase. It was a perfect opportunity, risk-free for Randi, to demonstrate how to put your money where your mouth is when it comes to questions of honesty and integrity - the very things that he talks about, week after week in SWIFT.
Instead he chose to make the point that this is hardly what forum members should be going after. I mean, c'mon give him a break, already. This is nothing like the kind of deceit and fraud that is perpetrated by those he talks about in SWIFT. Any comparison is ridiculous, maybe to the point of deserving ridicule. And from a purely objective perspective, I might agree.
However, it turns out that even minor incidents can influence people's perception. As far as I can tell, the people that said, "this bugs me", are people who are generally supportive of Randi; who are inclined to think well of him. They probably wish that they didn't feel this loss of confidence (I realize I'm trying to speak for others and I apologize if I'm getting it wrong). I know I do and I'm trying really hard to overcome it. If it has this effect on people who are inclined to trust Randi, imagine the reaction from people who are ambivalent to begin with.
This is very difficult for me to write. This isn't a reaction that I usually have, and I'd rather not have to deal with it. I realize that I've opened myself up to the possibility of looking very silly. I am not trying to argue that that any of this is justifiable, or that dismissing these concerns is not. I just wanted to point out that there may be some value in paying attention to what happens, even in relatively minor situations. I don't see any value in being dismissive, especially when it was unnecessary (nobody was getting out-of-hand or riled-up).
Linda
Okay, I've read this whole thread again in detail and read the two commentaries and Randi's letter to Hawkeye again and it seems I had this thing wrong.
Correct me if I'm wrong this time:
Randi was reading posts on the forum when he chanced upon a couple of Hawkeye's posts wherein he expressed opinions that exactly mirrored his own. He therefore lifted the posts, changed a couple of words, added a bit of padding and changed certain third person pronouns into first person pronouns and passed the whole thing off as his own. The excuse he gave is that he was too busy to write his own thoughts so he stole the thoughts of someone who thoughts mirrored his own.
Is this a fair summary?
If that is the case...
- how is this not a major issue?
- how is this not plagiarism?
- how do we know that Haweye's thoughts exactly mirrored Randi's own?
- how does it change things if Hawkeye doesn't mind?
If Randi was too busy, why was he wasting time reading posts on the forum intead of just writing his own thoughts on the matter?
Correct me if I'm wrong this time:
Randi was reading posts on the forum when he chanced upon a couple of Hawkeye's posts wherein he expressed opinions that exactly mirrored his own. He therefore lifted the posts, changed a couple of words, added a bit of padding and changed certain third person pronouns into first person pronouns and passed the whole thing off as his own. The excuse he gave is that he was too busy to write his own thoughts so he stole the thoughts of someone who thoughts mirrored his own.
Is this a fair summary?
If that is the case...
- how is this not a major issue?
- how is this not plagiarism?
- how do we know that Haweye's thoughts exactly mirrored Randi's own?
- how does it change things if Hawkeye doesn't mind?
If Randi was too busy, why was he wasting time reading posts on the forum intead of just writing his own thoughts on the matter?
Why was reading posts on the Forum a waste of time? I can't see why the Forum shouldn't be a resource for Randi as well as others. I've often read stuff on the Forum and thought that's a great way of putting it and then later on used that when I'm making a similar point here and elsewhere.
No apologies needed for me Linda, and I'm one of the others that you're trying to speak for.
I have been an admirer of Randi for many many years. You can probably see by my join date that I was among the first to become part of this forum. I don't have a high post count, but I have visited here to read every day since the board opened. Through their posts, I feel I know all of the long-term members, admins, moderators and the high post-count members although none know me. I have been reading Randi's work since long before this forum was a twinkle in anyone's eye. I quote him daily and expose as many people as I can to his MDC. No-one could have been a more staunch defender of Randi's philosophy than I.
But this fiasco has shaken my trust in him. I have intimated to the members of this board (those who read my post) how much Randi's actions have affected me. I have been quiet in this thread since my initial few posts because I wanted to see what Randi had to say on this week's Swift. I must say that I am even more troubled now. I have been called a barking forum watchdog. And Randi's attitude to this seems too blase and condescending to me. He wants me to give him a break, but he'll not lose any sleep at night anyway.
It may not be a big deal to him, or some of you, but it is a big deal to me. I can't continue to quote Randi at people because I don't know for sure if it is Randi I'll be quoting. I can't tell anyone how much more of a human being he is than Sylvia Browne because he is content to carry out the same dastardly deeds that she does and like Browne, he couldn't care less what anyone thinks. He is no longer, in my mind, a shining beacon for critical thinking and a philosophy that will change mankind for the better. No, I hate to say it, but I can't think of Randi now without seeing him as an unconcerned, somewhat arrogant word thief, who, when caught, shrugs his shoulders, and climbs into his bed with a smug grin on his face.
I hate feeling like this.