Whoa, am I psychic?
- Thread starter Hawkeye
- Start date
I agree. This has been bothering me all night, I'll explain why.
Many, many people will use Randi's exceptionally good work and character as an excuse to gloss over this issue. And if the response from him had been different, I might possibly have done the same.
But, given that he used 'being busy' as an excuse and then even claimed to have not had time to change the wording, when he clearly did change the wording (in what looks for all the world like a schoolboy attempt to pass it off as his own writing), coupled with the lack of apology, it seems like a deliberate act of dishonesty occurred of precisely the same sort he called Sylvia Browne out for.
Now, you might say "oh, but she's scum and a fraud" or whatever, but wasn't the implication in Randi's expose of her that the alleged plagiarism confirms her dishonest nature? In other words, if she cheats in her writing, what else does she cheat with?
Which, for someone like Sylvia, is actually no big deal because we all think she's a liar and a fake anyway. But why shouldn't we then ask that question of Randi? And that could undermine his entire work.
I see two real problems with Randi plagiarising or otherwise cheating for any reason at all. The first is that the nature of his life's work demands that he act with 100% honesty and integrity, because that's the standard he's demanding from those he exposes. Why else would Randi pursue cheats unless he thinks cheating is bad? So why then is it OK to give the excuse "oops, you caught me in a blatant cheat, I was busy that week"?
Or are we saying that cheating is OK as long as you admit it when you get caught? I hope we're not saying that.
The second problem is that the challenge and the exposes cannot allow for the possibility of error. So it's just not OK to say "yeah, I work long hours and make mistakes" if your business is to identify and expose other people's cheating. The allegations and judgements made in Swift have an impact on people's lives and their businesses, so the greatest of care should be taken. If he can slip up here, like this, then what if he slips up when it really matters?
I don't know. I guess I'm just really, really suprised.
Last edited:
thaiboxerken
Penultimate Amazing
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But you're not. You have no idea what skepticism is.
thaiboxerken
Penultimate Amazing
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Randi responds!
Well there you have it, a perfectly reasonable explanation for the similarities.
Darn, I was hoping it was ESP.
It's a lie. He just doesn't want to give you the JREF money.
thaiboxerken
Penultimate Amazing
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IS it copyright infringment to cut and paste from a forum that you own?
baron
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Very likely, although I don't think anyone's invoking the law in this case as it would be a) petty and b) pointless. The poster, by using the forum, implicitly grants a license to display to the owner, but not a license to republish.
NoZed Avenger
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But I do know what plagiarism is.
rjh01
Gentleman of leisure
Just checked the rules Registration Agreement
My questions (and answers) based on this quote
1. Was the post on this forum? (Yes it was)
2. Is James Randi = JREF? (Yes. Swift is the weekly newsletter of JREF)
3. If JREF does reproduce their work as per this clause does he need to acknowledge it? (maybe)
4. Based on the answers above, did James Randi make any mistakes? (maybe.)
My questions (and answers) based on this quote
1. Was the post on this forum? (Yes it was)
2. Is James Randi = JREF? (Yes. Swift is the weekly newsletter of JREF)
3. If JREF does reproduce their work as per this clause does he need to acknowledge it? (maybe)
4. Based on the answers above, did James Randi make any mistakes? (maybe.)
Maybe he doesn't need to acknowledge it, but he should have. This is James Randi we're talking about, not some sneaky word-stealin' flim-flam artist. Tell me you wouldn't feel a bit miffed if he took a post of yours and reproduced it on Swift as his own work. And then when questioned about it the reply is basically, 'I was busy so tough luck.'
If this is the way Randi does things when he's busy, how do I know that all of the words in his books (and I bought every one) he claims to have written are his own? He was probably very busy while writing his books too.
This is hitting me much harder than I would have thought it could.
rjh01
Gentleman of leisure
Please keep to the topic. I doubt that his books contain substantial unacknowledged quotes from this forum. If he sourced material from elsewhere that could be copyright violations.
Yes I do agree that he should have mentioned the post. It is always good to see where a person is getting their material from. Adds some authority to it. However I have noticed that this does not always happen, both in Swift and elsewhere.
Randi - Do not make a habit of doing this. Can lead to trouble.
Yes I do agree that he should have mentioned the post. It is always good to see where a person is getting their material from. Adds some authority to it. However I have noticed that this does not always happen, both in Swift and elsewhere.
Randi - Do not make a habit of doing this. Can lead to trouble.
Thank you for your condescension, but you're not the boss of me. FYI, my answer to the 'topic' of the OP is no, you are not psychic.
Happy now?
baron
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I must admit to not having seen this (although I guess I should have - erm...) so it's possible my earlier post on forum copyright is incorrect.
However, the above quoted paragraph is contradictory so it doesn't really make things clearer.
Not a lawyer, but I don't think it is contradictory. The poster owns the copyright, but the JREF gets an automatic license to reproduce the posts. The JREF owns the copyright to the forum itself, but only to the main structure of the forum, not to the individual posts contained within in it.
Hawkeye
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Hawkeye, I just want to take a moment to say I really admire your style -- not only in the way you write, but also in how you handled a tough issue. Direct and with humor -- kudos to you!
Aww, shucks
Sure, I could have used this as an opportunity to get all self-righteous and indignant, and post all over the internet about how Randi plagiarized me. It might satisfy my vain desire to be more well-known on the forum, but it would be much ado about nothing.
What bothers me most is that several of you have said things about losing respect for Randi/Swift because of this incident. While it is your own business to decide what you do and don’t have confidence in, I hope that you don’t let one bad apple spoil the whole bunch. Randi has been putting out SWIFT every week for what, 7 years now? (Not counting all the books he’s written or the infolist/hotline going back to ‘92). Each Swift issue has, I would guesstimate, around 15 articles approximately 1,000 words long. The one about Sylvia Browne’s CNN appearance contained 2400 words, of which 200 or so were lifted from my post. So then let's do a quick back of the envelope… 7 years, 52 weeks, 15 articles, 1000 words, and only 200 plagiarized… that means, as far as we know, .0037% of the content isn’t his own. In other terms, statistically speaking, you should be skeptical about the origin of 1 out of every 27,000 words Randi writes on Swift. I understand that you have high standards for Randi considering his work, but as others have said; to err is human, even Randi makes mistakes. To this I would tack on the addendum - “very rarely.”
Look, there’s no question that he should have attributed the quote to me. Why he decided not to give any credit is an interesting question, which I’ll let him answer this Friday. However, the fact that he felt my words eloquently echoed his own feelings is such a compliment to me that I don’t even mind that he used them in the first place. Plus it gave me an opportunity to email him, which I never had a good reason too up until then
. True, this doesn’t make plagiarism okay, but that’s what I think about it. Presumably he will apologize in this weeks Swift, but it isn’t necessary.Calm down, there are bigger battles to fry and more important fish to be won.
Aww, shucks
Sure, I could have used this as an opportunity to get all self-righteous and indignant, and post all over the internet about how Randi plagiarized me. It might satisfy my vain desire to be more well-known on the forum, but it would be much ado about nothing.
What bothers me most is that several of you have said things about losing respect for Randi/Swift because of this incident. While it is your own business to decide what you do and don’t have confidence in, I hope that you don’t let one bad apple spoil the whole bunch. Randi has been putting out SWIFT every week for what, 7 years now? (Not counting all the books he’s written or the infolist/hotline going back to ‘92). Each Swift issue has, I would guesstimate, around 15 articles approximately 1,000 words long. The one about Sylvia Browne’s CNN appearance contained 2400 words, of which 200 or so were lifted from my post. So then let's do a quick back of the envelope… 7 years, 52 weeks, 15 articles, 1000 words, and only 200 plagiarized… that means, as far as we know, .0037% of the content isn’t his own. In other terms, statistically speaking, you should be skeptical about the origin of 1 out of every 27,000 words Randi writes on Swift. I understand that you have high standards for Randi considering his work, but as others have said; to err is human, even Randi makes mistakes. To this I would tack on the addendum - “very rarely.”
Look, there’s no question that he should have attributed the quote to me. Why he decided not to give any credit is an interesting question, which I’ll let him answer this Friday. However, the fact that he felt my words eloquently echoed his own feelings is such a compliment to me that I don’t even mind that he used them in the first place. Plus it gave me an opportunity to email him, which I never had a good reason too up until then
I think that's a fair and nice thing to say.
Although, I beg of you, please don't use the phrase "calm down"! It's like sitting on someone and you probably don't realise it comes across as patronising, which I'm sure you don't mean to be.
I haven't changed my opinion (as a professional writer, plagiarism is my number one hate and horror), but I will not add anything further to this thread because it's your issue and you are satisfied.