Who started both World Wars?

[Hans]

http://forums.skadi.net/archive/index.php/t-35020.html

A Joke: Hitler and Goering were arguing about the Jews, with Goering stating that they were quite clever people and Hitler vehemently denying they were any such thing. Finally Goering told Hitler that they should go shopping in Berlin and Goering would show Hitler it was true. Hitler agreed, so they disguised themselves and went out on the street.

Goering took Hitler into a shop, went up to the counter, and asked the clerk: "Do you have any left-handed teacups?" The clerk stared at Goering for a moment and then said no, mein herr, I do not.

The two left with Hitler complaining that he did not understand what the point of this was and Goering telling him to be patient. They went to another shop and Goering gave the same act: "Do you have any left-handed teacups?" The clerk stared and shrugged his shoulders.

They left with Hitler becoming incensed over this nonsense and Goering begging for patience. Finally they went into a Jewish shop; Goering again asked the clerk: "Do you have any left-handed teacups?"

The clerk smiled graciously, went into the back room and made a show of rummaging around, brought out a saucer and teacup, set down the saucer, and carefully placed the cup with the handle pointed so Goering could pick it with his left hand. "There you are, mein herr!" the clerk said.

Goering bought the teacup, thanked the clerk, and the two men left. Goering turned to Hitler and said: "See, I told you the Jews were very clever people."

"I don't see what was so clever about that," Hitler snapped. "He just happened to have one in stock!"

 

[MG1962]

Some interesting questions:

8. September 25, 420 German planes bomb civilian targets in Warsaw? Why?
9. September 27, Hitler informs the German General Staff of his plans for a war in the West and instructs them to plan an attack on France.

You left one out

9a - German General Staff excuse themselves from Hitler's presence to change underware enmass

 

[Hans]

You left one out

9a - German General Staff excuse themselves from Hitler's presence to change underware enmass

Good one

That was pretty much their reaction, at that time the Germans were over estimating the power of French forces, heck everybody did except the French!

 

[MG1962]

Good one

That was pretty much their reaction, at that time the Germans were over estimating the power of French forces, heck everybody did except the French!

Its funny I used to play the highly technical wargame WinSPWW2. The level of detail was amazing, but it could not reproduce the basic attitude of the forces deployed. It was almost impossible for the Germans to win. In virutally every class of weapon the French were better equiped.

So the German's concerns were justified

 

[Hans]

Its funny I used to play the highly technical wargame WinSPWW2. The level of detail was amazing, but it could not reproduce the basic attitude of the forces deployed. It was almost impossible for the Germans to win. In virutally every class of weapon the French were better equiped.

So the German's concerns were justified

French disorganization and poor tactics did them in besides the defeatist attitude. I use to create early war scenarios and it was hard to adjust them to so the Germans had a chance to win. The drive of the first Panzer division, south in June 1940 was amazing considering what they were facing.


One can also credit the bold German Leadership at all levels, excellent organization and superb attitude

Oh another comment on the item above, one junior officer whose name I've forgotten in the German staff, noted in his diary that the invasion of the West would lead to early successes but would ultimately bring in the Americans, "the son to come honorably to defense of the father"

 

[Halcyon Dayz]

WWII started July 1937 when Japan invaded China.

Ironically China was aided by Nazi-Germany.

 

[MG1962]

WWII started July 1937 when Japan invaded China.

Ironically China was aided by Nazi-Germany.

Well if we want to play this game we can go back to Oct 1935 for the Italo Abyssinian War. Or the Japanese invasion of China in Sept 1931.........or

 

[Hans]

Lets say it was one great war with two main phases which started in the summer of 1914 and ended in the summer in 1945

 

[MG1962]

Lets say it was one great war with two main phases which started in the summer of 1914 and ended in the summer in 1945

2nd Balkans war June 1913

 

[9/11-investigator]

This morning in Germany's #1 magazine Der Spiegel:

New document find in Moscow archive confirms that Hitler likely had known about the flight of Hess to Scotland on may 10, 1941.

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/0,1518,765508,00.html

Then follows the hilarious remark:

Historiker bezweifeln allerdings, dass Heß im Auftrag Hitlers handelte.

'Hess did not act on request of Hitler'

... mildly ignoring the fact that Hitler was firmly in charge and that the 2nd man in the Nazi hierarchy Hess was a total devotee of Hitler. He would never disobey Hitler.

So Hitler knew but did not approve?

Why does America-groupie Der Spiegel say this? To keep pushing the myth that Hess was a little bit of a loon and disturbed individual who did not know what he was doing. After all that's what Hitler had said as well.

But Hess (and Hitler) knew very well what they were doing: they were lookin for peace with Britain. The reality is that they were in a desperate situation:

- Negotiations had been going on between Berlin and London for months about the corridor and the German town of Danzig. These failed because of the stubborn attitude of the Poles, who felt encouraged by the UK and USA to not give in to any demand.
- After the Poles started killing the Germans and thousands of Polish Germans fled to Germany, Hitler had no choice but to take measures against the Poles after he got assurances from Stalin that he would go along. A fatal mistake, since it had been Soviet strategy from the early days of the revolution to instigate war between the capitalist countries in order to weaken them so that they could be taken over. Stalin succeeded in this aim and brought Germany into war with France and Britain, who were waiting to kick Germany back in the Versailles mode or worse. Not that Hitler had much choice than to fell in Stalin's trap.
- Hitler to his horror got a declaration of war from Britain and France days after he invaded Poland. As a consequence of that he stumbled from one war into another, to start with the Norway campaign.
- By may 1941, against his wil, Hitler was the proud owner of Norway, the Low Countries and France, all in response to British and French (incompetent) war preparations against Germany.
- Recent publications by the British Foreign Office revealed that they had counted none less than 16 peace offers from Germany, which they all rejected, because from the start Churchill (and his Jewish backers in America and The City, the Focus group) were interested in nothing less than the total destruction of Germany, who had dared to replace the Jewish dominated Weimar period with a German run regime. But they could not openly admit that. The game that Churchill played was to give Hitler the illusion that negotiations were going on, in the mean time playing for time until the inevitable war between the USSR and Germany would break out.
- By May 10, 1941 the USSR had concentrated millions of troops along the German-Ukrainian border to carry out what the USSR had prepared for for decades: the final assault on Europe. The preparations had been achieved with intensive (private) American aid via the Jew Armand Hammer, who via his Moscow bureau was responsible for a large part of the Soviet armaments industry. This build-up had been achieved over the backs of the Soviet population, including the starvation of millions of Ukrainians, whose grain/wheat was used to pay for this buildup (and break the back of Ukrainian resistance against collectivation as a nice side-effect).
- The flight of Hess to Scotland (with full knowledge of Hitler as many had suspected before the new document find in Moscow) was an act of desperation. Hitler from the days of Mein Kampf had dreamed of an alliance with Britain, whom he for some mysterious reason admired (in reality the British are not European, but basically Celts with a considerable amount of Germanic Danish/Saxon invader blood). By May 10, 1941 the latest, Hitler knew that he was trapped and that he had only enemies who were preying on Germany and Europe. And that America would soon join the war and de facto had already entered the war by the deliveries of 50 destroyers to Britain and whose navy were already provoking the Germans into open combat, what Germany tried to avoid at all cost. It is very likely that Hess was lured to fly to Britain by the Churchill junta. And that he was arrested to his surprise. Hitler for prestige reasons could not publicly admit that he had been fooled so he went along with the British explanation that Hess was 'confused'.
- Hess was murdered in spandau for this very reason, namely to hide for the public that Germany had been desperately looking for a peace arrangement with Britain ever since the fall of France, offering a complete pre-1939 territorial rollback (except for Danzig and majority German 'polish' territories) and that Britain had lost the largest empire in history just because the Churchill traitor and warmonger had been working for Jewish/American interests all along and not for British interests. The fact that the British population chose Churchill as the 'man of the century', where in reality he was the largest disaster ever happened to Britain, does not constitute a good reference for the intelligence of that nation (or it serves as strong proof of the brainwashingpower of the modern mass media, now circumvented by the internet).

The only thing left for Hitler in his desperate fight for naked survival was to use the surprise element of preempted attack against the Soviet forces, massed along the border, ready for attack and try to reach Moscow and dissolve the Evil Empire. He almost succeeded save for 50 miles. Germanic Europe from the Norwegian North-Cape to Milan had been destroyed by an agressive coalition of Jews (the brains behind the operation), Celts, Slavs and Euro-Americans, who were too stupid to understand what was going on (except for a minority around Charles Lindbergh).

Nobody less than Molotov in his memoirs confirmed that there was nothing left for Germany to escape than to attack the USSR.

Molotov: And maybe Stalin overestimated Hitler? Maybe he thought Hitler was smart enough not to attack us until he finished the war with England? That’s right, that’s right. Not only Stalin had this feeling but I and others did, too. On the other hand, there was nothing left for Hitler to do but attack us. He would never have finished his war with England – you just try to finish a war with England!

 

[TSR]

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/0,1518,765508,00.html

Then follows the hilarious remark:

Historiker bezweifeln allerdings, dass Heß im Auftrag Hitlers handelte.

'Hess did not act on request of Hitler'

.
Your written German needs help, that's not what this sentence says.

A much more accurate translation would be "Among historians, there are strong doubts that Hess was acting in behalf of Hitler."

Oh, well, you only missed the very first word in the phrase...
.

So Hitler knew but did not approve?

.
Of course, you also mised the very first sentence of the article you cite:

"Adolf Hitler war womöglich in den Alleinflug seines Stellvertreters Rudolf Heß nach Großbritannien vor 70 Jahren eingeweiht."

And since we cannot trust you not to distort the translation, here it is for our non-German literate members:

"Adolf Hitler was perhaps open < in German, a stronger word, implying approval. ed. > to the solo flight of his deputy Rudolf Hess to the UK 70 years ago."

No where in the article is there any suggest of disapproval on the part of Hitler, and in fact the single document it cites goes on to say:

"Der prominente Nazi habe dabei die Aufgabe gehabt, 'mit allen ihm zu Gebote stehenden Mitteln, wenn schon nicht ein Militärbündnis Deutschlands mit England gegen Russland, so doch wenigstens eine Neutralisierung Englands zu erreichen'."

IOW:

"The prominent Nazi would have had, 'all means available to him, if not (to achieve) a military alliance of Germany with England against Russia, then at least (assure) England's neutrality.'"

which he could not have done without such approval.

Remainder of argument from false premises snipped, but not before pointing out that Hitler *did* have a choice to avoid war with the UK and France: he could have left Danzig alone. Funny that you talk about a "complete rollback" but then in the very next sentence contradict your own claim...
.

 

[9/11-investigator]

Remainder of argument from false premises snipped, but not before pointing out that Hitler *did* have a choice to avoid war with the UK and France: he could have left Danzig alone.

What TSR is basically saying is that if French troops had conquered, say Dover, that Britain should have asked Berlin for permission to hit the French, otherwise risk a Soviet/American invasion. That's insane. Danzig was 97.5% German, it wanted to return to the Reich and then there was this Wilson fella, solemnly pledging the principle of self-determination, on the basis of which the Germans had surrendered.

Excellent, now I have TSR implicitly admitting that 'world war 2' broke out over the Danzig issue after all and not Germany wanting to conquer ze wurld as conventional wisdom would like to have it. This is more than I could hope for. But more likely TSR is talking his mouth off in his naivite.

The last thing nationalists want to do is conquering the world. That urge can be safely left to the New World Order crowd and TSR is one of them.

There were 2 party's really wanting to conquer ze wurld and they did not speak German:

1) USSR
2) USA

They both exploited the Danzig issue and the wish of the British and French to keep the Germans down and to push Britain into war with Germany, via the paid traitor Churchill, in order to crush the German European core and subjugate Europe, including Britain, the fools who had opened the doors for the enemies of Europe.

And that's what happened.

P.S. to the lurkers: note that although I gave a complete revisionist summary of WW2 in the size of 1 page A4/letter, the only thing TST does is nitpicking about the correct translation of the Spiegel article.

Thoroughly outmaneuvered.

 

[Corsair 115]

P.S. to the lurkers: note that although I gave a complete revisionist summary of WW2...

Indeed you have. Unfortunately for you, your "revision" is utter nonsense. Need one only look at your almost total ignorance of the facts and details of the strategic bomber offensive (as I have demonstrated several times in this thread already) to know that your "revisions" have little to do with facts and everything to do with ideology.

 

[9/11-investigator]

On a more serious point, the main issue for the Germans was the ore supply. The plain fact was that it would be much easier for the allies to interrupt that supply by diplomatic means alone. Or rather, the only way for Germany to absolutely guarantee the supply of iron ore was to invade. The invasion became inevitable after the Altmark incident demonstrated that Norway would not, or could not, defend its neutrality.

There was a German concern over a possible allied expeditionary force landing in Norway to support the Finns in the winter war. Such a force would also disrupt Germany's ore supply. Though the allied plan never got past the discussion phase, the press at the time represented such an intervention as a real possibility. By March 12, of course, this possibility had evaporated.

Incidentally, as early as October 10 1939, Admiral Raeder had suggested to the Fuhrer that capturing Norwegian ports, especially Trondheim and Narvik, would be useful to the Kriegsmarine and would enable it to broaden the scope of its operations against the Royal Navy.

Let's pick up where we halted our interesting discussion about Norway, until I was temporarily banned (very convenient for my opponents).

Unfortunately for you I am back. In the meantime I did some reading up on the subject, which will prove to be devastating for you. Recently I downloaded this ebook for 5 lousy euro's:

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Hitlers-Pre-Emptive-War/Henrik-O-Lunde/e/9781612000459

The book, "Hitler's Preemptive War: The Battle for Norway, 1940" is written by a Norwegian, Henrik Lunde. The book was published in the US in 2010 and represents the latest thinking about the Norwegian campaign. The writer was a former officer in the U.S. Army, not necessarily the best precondition to write pro-German books. And indeed the tone is remarkable neutral. But if you read between the lines you have to conclude that Lunde supports the idea that the entire operation was outright provoked by the British in order to *at last* get the war going.

And do I have good news for you! The book is available online, at an italian site (".it"), although I doubt it is with permission of mr Lunde, so I am not going to post the link here. And hey, what's a few dollars for a good book about the truth of WW2. So pull your credit card out of your pocket and make sure you have your copy of the book on your 'desktop'. May I wish you a pleasant battle with me!

We are not concerned about the course of the hostilities itself, fascinating as it is (you will be delighted to, since it was a desaster for the British/French, just like what happened yesterdaynight in London), but only in the first 3 chapters that deal with the run-up to the campaign, the decision process by the movers and shakers in Berlin and London (the French were merely the followers of the real culpritt behind it all, a certain Winston Churchill).

Chapter one - deals with the events from the British perspective
Chapter two - deals with the events from the German perspective
Chapter three - deals with the initial stage, but contains some interesting elements of why the campaign started in the first place

As a next step, I will produce a detailed time-line, but probably will not finish it tonight. But hey, we still have time until WW3 or some other calamity breaks out, now that we have survived May 21.

 

[9/11-investigator]

Indeed you have. Unfortunately for you, your "revision" is utter nonsense. Need one only look at your almost total ignorance of the facts and details of the strategic bomber offensive (as I have demonstrated several times in this thread already) to know that your "revisions" have little to do with facts and everything to do with ideology.

Can't remember discussing the 'strategic bomber offensive' in my summary.

Maybe you would care to elaborate about where exactly in my summary the 'almost total ignorance' starts, and more important why it is 'utter nonsense'?

Of course not.
Rethorical.
Continue with your barbeque.

 

[Wroclaw]

The book is here:

http://www.ebooksgratis.it/leggi-ebook/9781935149330/Hitler's+Pre-Emptive+War

 

[Corsair 115]

Can't remember discussing the 'strategic bomber offensive' in my summary.

See earlier in this thread: post #4899 for one example. There are numerous examples throughout this thread.

Maybe you would care to elaborate about where exactly in my summary the 'almost total ignorance' starts, and more important why it is 'utter nonsense'?

But one small recent example, your breathless comment from #4899: "The alllies threw 20 times as much on Germany as the other way around." As if that stat in and of itself means anything. The web page you linked to in that post also contains numerous errors.

Your inability to understand the aerial military operations has been revealed many times in this thread. I hardly need repeat them again. Just go back to earlier pages and they are there for all to see. You've also voiced your ideology earlier in this thread; that hardly needs repeating either. It's on record for all to see.

 

[9/11-investigator]

See earlier in this thread: post #4899 for one example. There are numerous examples throughout this thread.

But one small recent example, your breathless comment from #4899: "The alllies threw 20 times as much on Germany as the other way around." As if that stat in and of itself means anything. The web page you linked to in that post also contains numerous errors.

Your inability to understand the aerial military operations has been revealed many times in this thread. I hardly need repeat them again. Just go back to earlier pages and they are there for all to see. You've also voiced your ideology earlier in this thread; that hardly needs repeating either. It's on record for all to see.

You can't read, can you. This topic is about who is to blame for WW1/WW2. I gave an, in my view, excellent condensed summary of the real motives of the combattants. You refered to my summary in that post as 'utter nonsense' and to 'prove' that you fall back on earlier posts.

So again: try to concentrate on this post and explane why it is nonsense.

 

[Corsair 115]

You can't read, can you. This topic is about who is to blame about for WW1/WW2.

And numerous other posters have given rebuttals, with sources, that show your claims are worthless. (Rebuttals you conveniently ignore. Or, to use your own statement: You can't read, can you.)

You've peppered this thread with various comments disparaging the Allies. The idea being that, by painting them as vile and evil, it makes your claim of them picking on poor little Germany more believable. ""The alllies [sic] threw 20 times as much on Germany as the other way around." Those mean Allies, look at how much they hurt poor Germany! Clearly, if the Allies were nice, they would not have hit Germany more than it had hit them. But no, those mean, nasty Allies, the punched Germany twenty times as hard as Germany had punched them. Obviously that's because they hated Germany and must've really started the whole war!

Unfortunately for you, the aerial aspect to the war is something I happen know about, and for which I have reference books on hand. Which means your nonsense will get challenged, and shown for the nonsense it is. I repeat again: the link you gave in post #4899 is filled with errors, lack of context, and appeals to emotionalism. In short: it's pure junk. Yet you used it to try and bolster your position.

So your attempts to paint the Allies as mean and nasty by your selective, out-of-context, or downright false, statements about the aerial campaigns of the war will draw my rebuke. Every time. You can now try to shift the debate and imply all your prior comments littered throughout this thread don't actually matter, but the remarks remain on the record and visible to all.

Your obfuscations will achieve nothing. You and your motivations remain crystal clear. As shown by your own words in this thread.

 

[Uzzy]

What TSR is basically saying is that if French troops had conquered, say Dover, that Britain should have asked Berlin for permission to hit the French, otherwise risk a Soviet/American invasion. That's insane. Danzig was 97.5% German, it wanted to return to the Reich and then there was this Wilson fella, solemnly pledging the principle of self-determination, on the basis of which the Germans had surrendered.

Or, if Hitler had been serious about just renegotiating the Treaty of Versailles, he could have done just that. There was some willingness on behalf of the French and British to accommodate German demands regarding the Treaty, and alleviating some of the more unfair aspects. Recall, if you will, the Munich Pact, where Chamberlain did just that.

Of course, The French and British were also busy rearming, clearly taking a classic carrot and stick approach to foreign policy.

However, Hitler didn't just want to renegotiate the Treaty of Versailles. Hitler wanted to drive Germany into the east, to colonise those areas in Poland and the USSR at the expense of the native population.