Who started both World Wars?

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On August 13, 1945, after the Russians had declared war on Japan and attacked the Japanese in Manchuria, after two Japanese cities had been destroyed by atomic bombs, and after the U.S. had resumed conventional bombing operations against Japanese targets, the Japanese cabinet was still deadlocked over the issue of surrendering.

Were it not for the Emperor personally intervening and coming down on the side of surrender at that meeting, the war would have continued. In spite of a Russian declaration of war. In spite of two cities vanishing under atomic bombs. In spite of hundreds of B-29s once again dropping bombs. That's how determined some in the Japanese government were to fighting to the death.

You are completely ignoring that the Japanese ambassador in Moscow was instructed on July 13 to approach Stalin to with the message that Japan was ready to surrender. This instruction can only be send if the government has taken a decision. So you are wrong about the deadlock.

Indeed, even though the Emperor himself had forced the decision on behalf of surrendering (a completely unusual occurrence since the Emperor almost never interfered in government policy and decisions) there was an attempted coup to prevent the surrender message from being broadcast.

So any suggestion that the Japanese government was completely united in its desire to surrender unconditionally in mid-July is laughable and without factual support.

So what were these conditions that justified your kind to slaughter 200,000 innocent people when you already knew that a surrender at least was in the making.

For the more sane around here, I have Eisenhower on my side:

http://www.doug-long.com/quotes.htm
"...in [July] 1945... Secretary of War Stimson, visiting my headquarters in Germany, informed me that our government was preparing to drop an atomic bomb on Japan. I was one of those who felt that there were a number of cogent reasons to question the wisdom of such an act. ...the Secretary, upon giving me the news of the successful bomb test in New Mexico, and of the plan for using it, asked for my reaction, apparently expecting a vigorous assent.

"During his recitation of the relevant facts, I had been conscious of a feeling of depression and so I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives. It was my belief that Japan was, at that very moment, seeking some way to surrender with a minimum loss of 'face'. The Secretary was deeply perturbed by my attitude..."

- Dwight Eisenhower, Mandate For Change, pg. 380

That was the judgment of a top ranking general.

Here is another opinion that mattered:
Admiral Leahy, Chief of Staff to presidents Roosevelt and Truman, later commented:

It is my opinion that the use of the barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan ... The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons ... My own feeling was that in being the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children.
The dropping of the bomb was completely unnecessary but these Washington Mengele's wanted to carry out a mega-size 'medical experiment'.

So, who were the real Inglorious Basterds, I am asking you?

I know the answer.
 
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You are completely ignoring that the Japanese ambassador in Moscow was instructed on July 13 to approach Stalin to with the message that Japan was ready to surrender. This instruction can only be send if the government has taken a decision. So you are wrong about the deadlock.
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No, Togo did *not* so instruct Sato. The intercept shows the instruction was that unconditional surrender was *not* on the table.

Remind me again -- why should a conditional surrender have been considered?

Remind me again -- under what circumstances was the surrender made?

Remind me again -- how many atom bombs had to be dropped for those circumstances to become acceptable to the Japanese?

Remind me again -- did it, or did it not require the Emperor's *personal* intervention to force the surrender after the above mentioned number of bombs had been dropped and after how much time, indicating that the Japanese actually had no intention of surrendering on their own?
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You are completely ignoring that the Japanese ambassador in Moscow was instructed on July 13 to approach Stalin to with the message that Japan was ready to surrender. This instruction can only be send if the government has taken a decision. So you are wrong about the deadlock.



So what were these conditions that justified your kind to slaughter 200,000 innocent people when you already knew that a surrender at least was in the making.

For the more sane around here, I have Eisenhower on my side:

http://www.doug-long.com/quotes.htm


That was the judgment of a top ranking general.

Here is another opinion that mattered:

The dropping of the bomb was completely unnecessary but these Washington Mengele's wanted to carry out a mega-size 'medical experiment'.

So, who were the real Inglorious Basterds, I am asking you?

I know the answer.

Just give up. Your failure and anti-Semitism has been shown enough.
 
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No, Togo did *not* so instruct Sato. The intercept shows the instruction was that unconditional surrender was *not* on the table.

So, what were the conditions, according to you, that justified the slaughter of 200,000 innocent civilians?

Pomperdepompompom...

For the Europeans here: in the good old days when Americans fortunately did not exist, there was chivalry and measure. Even Napoleon got a good retirements of sorts, even after his second escape. 'Unconditional surrender' is a practice preferred by rapists and serial murderers. I think that we Europeans can agree that manners did not improve with these new kids on the block. They like to hang everybody they defeated, they like to blow up their own buildings as a pretext for war, bomb civilians by the hundreds of thousands and invent horror stories that they accuse others of. In my humble opinion it is about time for them to go.
 
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So, what were the conditions, according to you, that justified the slaughter of 200,000 innocent civilians?
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Any conditions by the Japanese which prevented the end of the war.

You *do* recall that they were the aggressors, and so it was they that needed to surrender?

And that it took *two* atom bombs, another week of conventional bombing and the personal intervention of the Emperor before Japan surrendered?

How many "innocent civilians" do you estimate would have died had the Allies relied on a conventional invasion of the Home Islands? How many innocent civilians did the Japanese kill?

Please remind me -- who was it that started the hostilities with the US? Mess with the bull, you get the horns, as the saying goes.
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You are completely ignoring that the Japanese ambassador in Moscow was instructed on July 13 to approach Stalin to with the message that Japan was ready to surrender. This instruction can only be send if the government has taken a decision. So you are wrong about the deadlock.


And you are completely ignoring that in spite of the Russians declaring war on Japan, in spite of two cities undergoing atomic attack, and in spite of regular conventional bombing resuming, the Japanese cabinet, in a meeting on August 13, 1945, was deadlocked on the issue of surrendering. Care to explain how that makes the Japanese government united in its desire to surrencer? Were it not for the Emperor's unusual direct interference, the cabinet would have remained deadlocked and the war would have continued. And even with the Emperor coming down in favour of surrender there was an attempted coup to prevent the surrender from being broadcast.

These are not signs of a government united in its desire to capitulate.


So what were these conditions that justified your kind to slaughter 200,000 innocent people when you already knew that a surrender at least was in the making.


It's called war. People get killed during them. Whispers of surrender do not equal surrender. An unequivocal broadcast of the intent to surrender and the cessation of hostilities equals surrender. I would have thought that obvious.


I... The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons ...


Anyone with even a trace of rationality knew Japan had lost the war. That had been clearly obvious with the taking of Iwo Jima and Okinawa, and obvious since Japan's defeat at the Battle of Leyte Gulf the previous October, which had finished off most of what little navy Japan had left. And yet the Japanese stubbornly refused to admit they were beaten and continued to fight for months and months.

They continued to stockpile weaponry and supplies in anticipation of an American invasion of the home islands. They had in reserve between 5,000-9,000 aircraft, and the fuel to fly them, and intended to expend these aircraft in mass kamikaze assaults on any invasion fleet. The island of Kyushu had been heavily reinforced as the Japanese had correctly deduced it was to be the first site of any American invasion. The Japanese continued to train millions of its civilian population to serve as militia, planning to expend them in mass human wave attacks on any landing site.

These are not the actions of a nation which has accepted its defeat.


So, what were the conditions, according to you, that justified the slaughter of 200,000 innocent civilians?


As I have pointed out to you before, in a state of total war between industrialized nation-states, the idea that civilians are not an integral part of the war effort is sheer nonsense. True, they don't fight directly. But they sure as hell make the war possible by their economic efforts. No civilians, no economy; no economy, no military; no military, no war. This relationship has always been true throughout human history, but it is even more applicable to the kind to total war fought between industrialized nation-states, since industrialized societies have a vast capacity to constantly produce the weapons and personnel of war.

Hiroshima, incidentally, was not some idyllic, tranquil paradise. It was the headquarters for the Second Army and Chugoku Regional Army. The city was also home to large depots housing military supplies, and was a key shipping and communications centre. These attributes made it a military target.

Lastly, in legal terms, there were virtually no more civilians in Japan. The conscription act passed by the Japanese cabinet in June of 1945 meant all Japanese males between 16-60 years old and unmarried females 17-40 years effectively became members of the national militia.
 
So, what were the conditions, according to you, that justified the slaughter of 200,000 innocent civilians?

There was no mention of the Emperor at Potsdam.
Unconditional surrender was what was required.

The allies did not want a prolonged discussion over conditions...they wanted the war over. Japan had to know it was beaten.

At no point in the 4 months or so prior to the bombing was there a majority of the Big Six in support of surrender. Have you read any of the meetings held in that period? They were completely deluded (rather like a certain German in Berlin earlier in the year), and planning a defense to death of the islands.

The fact that (as pointed out) the Emperor had to intervene after the second bomb should show you the sort of people we're talking about here...and then there was still a coup attempt!
 
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No, Togo did *not* so instruct Sato. The intercept shows the instruction was that unconditional surrender was *not* on the table.

Remind me again -- why should a conditional surrender have been considered?

Remind me again -- under what circumstances was the surrender made?

Remind me again -- how many atom bombs had to be dropped for those circumstances to become acceptable to the Japanese?

Remind me again -- did it, or did it not require the Emperor's *personal* intervention to force the surrender after the above mentioned number of bombs had been dropped and after how much time, indicating that the Japanese actually had no intention of surrendering on their own?
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And that after the Emperor decided to surrender, there was an attempted Coup by Right Wing elements in the Army that damn near suceeded. Even after the Second Bomb at Nagasaki, that "Fight to the last Man,Woman,and Child" wing of the Military was still powerful.
 
The British and French won, hence they were not on trial.
In a real trial the judge never is one of the conflicting parties.
That's called independent justice.
Is that so difficult to understand for you?

When a criminal is tried for a crime under western jurisprudence, the crime is seen a harm to society as well as a harm to the individual.

The criminal is entitled to a fair trial, but he is NOT entitled to a trial by a disinterested court or jury. (Generally speaking) The criminal must stand trial in the jurisdiction in which the crime took place, must face a jury of the citizens of that jurisdiction and a judge of that jurisdiction.
 
There was no mention of the Emperor at Potsdam.
Unconditional surrender was what was required.

Really, and who are you to demand 'unconditional surrender'? God himself?
I believe the issue for the Japanese was to keep their emperor, what in the end they indeed achieved. The bombs fell nevertheless. I showed you quotes that Eisenhower deeply deplored what had happened and that it was unnecessary to throw the bomb because the war was won anyway. But certain American sadistic criminals decided to throw the bomb anyway just to see what happened. And there is no way you can talk yourself out of it. And as a reminder: Pearl Harbour was outright provoked upon the the Japanese as a result of outreageous demands the Americans imposed on the Japanese in return for resumption of essential oil deliveries. The Japanese were expected nothing less than to dismantle their entire empire. The reality was that the US felt strong and was looking for a war in order to catapult themselves into world hegemony, together with their noble ally, the Soviet Union. And it worked out fine.


The allies did not want a prolonged discussion over conditions...they wanted the war over. Japan had to know it was beaten.

So let's slaughter 200,000 inocents. I wonder if it is in your interest to be so open about your inner life and motivations.
 
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Really, and who are you to demand 'unconditional surrender'? God himself?

No. The attacked party gets to decide when the fight is over. Now, we could have done that by immediately capitulating after Pearl Harbor, but we didn't.
 
And we could have let the Master Race win The Battle Of Britain.But we fought on and wiped the floor with the Turd Reich.That's what upsets Nien11.
 
No. The attacked party gets to decide when the fight is over.

Yes, and it is you who decided to intentionally slaughter 200,000 innocent civilians in the largest medical experiment ever: Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Japanese and Americans knew in April that the war was over. The dropping of the bombs was completely superfluous.

You are obviously a junior when it comes to understanding how PH came about (4:38). But regardless of the cause of the war, the party that decided to kill 200,000 wiill not escape judgment from history. And the moral case for your actions does not look good at all. The USSR had its demise in 1991, the US somewhere in the coming decade. When the American era is over, we remaining Europeans are going to have a good look at what really happened between 1900 and 1945.And it does not look good for the former victors of WW1 and WW2. Not good at all.

Now, we could have done that by immediately capitulating after Pearl Harbor, but we didn't.

Americans pretend to be surprised that PH got attacked by the Japanese after the American government had cut off vital oil supplies to the Japanese for no reason at all. Oil deliveries would only be resumed after Japan had abandoned it's entire empirein Asia. The Japanese had no way out than going after the oil in (our Dutch) East Indies. The Fleet was in the way. Hence the attack, which was anticipated by the Roosevelt government days before, yet willingly sacrificed more than 2000 men of their own fleet in order to get a pretext for war, in first instance Japan, but the real target was Germany. The idea was to destroy Europe together with Britain and the Soviet-Union. That intention paid off wonderfully.

But now that The Death of the West is immanent, prepare for some old open bills that need to be paid soon.
 
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I repeat what has been said on PH in previous posts:

November 25, meeting in the White House between Roosevelt, Hull, Stark, Marshall, Stimson. All knew that November 29 was the dead line. Stimson wrote in his diary that Roosevelt had said that the US probably would be attacked, maybe already next Monday. The Japanese are notorious for surprise attacks. The question was how we could manouver them in a position that they shoot first, without endangering ourselves too much.

Even the BBC admits that PH was a setup (last 3 minutes of broadcast).

David Irving on Churchill and his foreknowledge of PH:

I think that it is a reasonable conclusion for us to draw -- a conclusion based on the fact that we are too ashamed to reveal any of our Japanese intercepts in the British archives -- that we were, in fact, reading JN25 intercepts in 1941. Churchill, in whose hands all of the threads of the intelligence community came together. Churchill, with his Olympian view of what was going on around him, was the man who insisted that the war intelligence be fed to him uncensored, unedited and unscreened. Churchill knew by the middle of November of 1941 that the Japanese were about to attack America, and quite probably he knew the attack was going to be on the Pacific Fleet in Hawaii. He probably never dreamed that it was going to be so successful as it was.
 
Yes, and it is you who decided to intentionally slaughter 200,000 innocent civilians in the largest medical experiment ever: Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Japanese and Americans knew in April that the war was over. The dropping of the bombs was completely superfluous.

You are obviously a junior when it comes to understanding how PH came about (4:38). But regardless of the cause of the war, the party that decided to kill 200,000 wiill not escape judgment from history. And the moral case for your actions does not look good at all. The USSR had its demise in 1991, the US somewhere in the coming decade. When the American era is over, we remaining Europeans are going to have a good look at what really happened between 1900 and 1945.And it does not look good for the former victors of WW1 and WW2. Not good at all.



Americans pretend to be surprised that PH got attacked by the Japanese after the American government had cut off vital oil supplies to the Japanese for no reason at all. Oil deliveries would only be resumed after Japan had abandoned it's entire empirein Asia. The Japanese had no way out than going after the oil in (our Dutch) East Indies. The Fleet was in the way. Hence the attack, which was anticipated by the Roosevelt government days before, yet willingly sacrificed more than 2000 men of their own fleet in order to get a pretext for war, in first instance Japan, but the real target was Germany. The idea was to destroy Europe together with Britain and the Soviet-Union. That intention paid off wonderfully.

But now that The Death of the West is immanent, prepare for some old open bills that need to be paid soon.

No. Forcing Japan's capitulation without invading saved lives on both sides.

It doesn't particularly matter if the United States were surprised by the attack on Pearl Harbor or not. It was still made by the Japanese.

Trade is voluntary. Theft is not. The Japanese DID have a way out, which you actually mention. They could have given up theft and rapine in Asia, and taken up trade.
Postwar, that strategy has actually worked pretty well for them. They don't have the empire, but they do have the wealth.
 
For the umptieth time, I could not care less about the Japanese empire. Or even the Dutch empire, let alone the American empire. That is what it is openly called these days in Washington: Empire.

My point is that Washington/Roosevelt openly steered into war by pushing Japan into the corner. Washington was looking for war with Japan. Japan was not looking for war with America. America brought Japan in an oil starved position. No oil, no empire.

Or Washington/Roosevelt was trying to steer Japan into a policy of trade rather than theft and rape without the necessity of a war expensive to both sides in people and materiel.
A policy which, postwar, was shown to be quite workable for Japan.
 
Or Washington/Roosevelt was trying to steer Japan into a policy of trade rather than theft and rape without the necessity of a war expensive to both sides in people and materiel.

Uh, the tragedy started with the US halting its policy of trade. Yes, the massacre of Nanking was terrible, but not of a different order than the US organized massacre of Dresden, Hiroshima/Nagasaki, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan. Or the April Glaspie's engineered invasion of Kuwait by Saddam, giving the US an excuse to get a foothold there.

A policy which, postwar, was shown to be quite workable for Japan.

Sure, as a subservient part of the US-lead West.
 
No. Trade is voluntary. "Sell me whatever of yours I want or I'll kill you and take it" is not trade.
Many restaurants here in the US display a sign: "No shirt, no shoes, no service." Part of what's being traded for the food is a certain standard of behavior.
 
No. Trade is voluntary. "Sell me whatever of yours I want or I'll kill you and take it" is not trade.

True. It was an attempt by Japan to liberate itself from the stranglehold of the US. The survival of Japanese empire was completely dependent on US oil deliveries. The US knew that. The US wanted war. The US halted oil deliveries. The dilemma for Japan was: abandon the entire empire or get the oil from the (Dutch) East Indies. Unsurprisingly Japan choose the latter. Japan knew it would be struck by the US fleet if it assaulted the East Indies. Hence the necessity of striking PH, from Japanese perspective.

BTW the US 'helped' the Dutch, British and other Europeans out of their subsequent empires.

Guess what is going to happen when the Richard Haass 'road-to-ruin' scenario will set in? Guess who will be packing?

Hope you can hold on to Texas, California, Arizona, etc.
Don't bet the farm on it.
No Zimmermann telegram necessary this time.

Many restaurants here in the US display a sign: "No shirt, no shoes, no service." Part of what's being traded for the food is a certain standard of behavior.

Historically the US is in no position to teach the world anything about standard of behavior.

This is how the US treats nations that are already beaten:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9lwvImJqT0&feature=related
 
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