ddt
Mafia Penguin
Great!
Who started both World Wars?
- Thread starter 9/11-investigator
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Great!9/11-investigator
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As long as it is constantly being entertained, fed at 17:00 pm with a burger and with porn at 23:00 pm, it is happy.
The Amurrikan, Auslaufmodel der Geschichte.
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Gawdzilla Sama
TImeToSweepTheLeg
Good image fail, btw.
I traveled for 20 years with the USN. I met a lot of people I liked. And a few that weren't worth spit. I'll leave you with that thought.
aggle-rithm
Ardent Formulist
I see you've learned a new obfuscation technique. Instead of linking to an English-language site that you hope no one will actually read, you link to Deutsch sites that you hope no one will be able to read.
Arisia
Graduate Poster
Thank you for your service, Gawdzilla.
You've clearly touched a nerve. Keep up the good work.
9/11-investigator
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As a special service to my opponents here (and to myself and my blog) I give here a summary of the video linked to earlier. Most important insight: it is simply untrue that Hitler wanted war with Poland ever since he came to power in 1933, using the British as a mediator. Until the very last day he was committed to a peace with Poland. It were the Americans (Roosevelt) who tricked the Poles into the war. And the British encouraged the Poles with their (empty) promises of support.
Wer wollte den Krieg (1 von 16)
Gert Schultze-Rohnhof wanted to find out if the Germans could have known between 1933-39 that Hitler was preparing for war. For this purpose he studied the expenditures for defense in that era. From this he wanted to conclude about the motives. So, if it was true that Hitler prepared for an Angriffskrieg then that should be clear from a comparative study. In Germany these figures cannot be found (except for the marines). SR had to rely on foreign data. His subject of interest was: “who started ww2?”.
1933-------------------Germany--------- French + Allies (Belgium, Poland, Czechoslowakia, Lituania)
Divisions------------------1------------------12
Grossverbaende ---------1------------------97
1939
Army----------------------1------------------2.5
A large majority of the Germans greeted the rearmament in 1933 because they were fed up that foreigner troops like French, Belgians, Poles and Lithuanians could do what the wanted in Germany. Germans wanted to be protected and a Reichswehr of 10 divisions could not deliver that security.
Even in 1939 one cannot accuse the Germans of overlooking aggressive intent of its own government considering the relative strength of the Army of Germany and it’s opponents.
Troubles in Europe increase after Germany demanded Danzig back in 1933. Just like everybody else the speaker always thought that Hitler wanted to solve the Danzig matter in 1939 with outrageous force. The classical explanation is that Hitler wanted not just Danzig but the rest of Poland as well.
Wer wollte den Krieg? (2 von 16)
The speaker reads this ‘quote’ from Hitler than can be found in any history schoolbook: “Ich habe nur Angst, daß mir noch im letzten Moment irgendein Schweinehund einen Vermittlungsplan vorlegt.” This statement was added during the Nuremberg trial into the protokol to be used as ‘proof’ against the main defendants. But in contrast until hours before the start of hostilities Hitler had given permission to Goering to negotiate with the British ambassy in Berlin in order to solve the Danzig issue without war. In the 10 days before the start of the war Hitler had asked the Italian, French and British government to mediate in order to avoid war. Hitler had send a 16 point proposition to the Polish government to solve differences. The Poles did not even want to read the proposition. It had to be sent via London. Cooper instructed the British media to paint the German propositions in the bleakest possible light. Britain was not interested in solving the crisis. Britain made sure that the proposition was not made public, not even in Germany. If they had the declaration of war of Britain and France would have met with a storm of protest. In the last 10 days before the war there were intensive negotiatons between London and Berlin. The issue was: the return of Danzig in the
Reich and the permission to build an Autobahn between the Reich and Danzig/East-Prussia. What is always downplayed is the precarious position of non-Polish citizens in the newly created Poland after 1919. Under the many minorities there were: Ukrainians (5M), Jews (2.5M), Germans (2M), and many more. 19 million Poles tried to linguistically ‘Polinize’ these 11 million non-Poles and to make them Catholic as well. The Poles ignored international treaties that told them the acknowledge minority rights. Minorities were supposed to disappear. 1 million Germans had already emigrated because they could not stand the conditions under which they had to live. The Poles applied torture to upport their ruthless assimilation policies.
Wer wollte den Krieg? (3 von 16)
It was so bad that 757,000 Jews moved from Poland to Germany between 1934-38, even after the persecution of the Jews there had already begun! In 1939 dramatic deterioration of the situation of the German minority in Poland. Confisation of farms, companies, violence in the street. Fleeing was difficult, people were shot. 80,000 German refugees had made it into Germany. Nothing of this is told in the official school books. In 1939 the Danzig and corridor issue was less pressing than the situation of the German minority in Poland. Hitler wanted to solve all these problems at once and had communicated this with the British and French. Hitler postponed 3 times an already settled date for the attack. Reason: Hitler needed time for negotiations. In the days before the outbreak of the war there was a shuttle diplomacy going on between London and Berlin with a Swedish mediator, Birger Dahlerus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birger_Dahlerus
From 3 independent sources (Berlin, London-Foreign Office, Dahlerus) the events can be confirmed.
Even before Versailles, Poland had taken German lands, like West-Prussia (70% German population). In 1933 the Polisgh army is almost 3 times that of Germany (300k v 100k). Poland is seen as a threat, even under democratic Weimar times. 1934 friendship treaty between Hitler and Pilsoedski. They both agree to divide pieces of Czechoslowakia (an artificial state created in Versailles) in 1938. Poland had captured land from all it’s neigsbours. Nowdays Poland would be called a rogue state. Meanwhile Danzig was not Polish but under UN jurisdiction.
Wer wollte den Krieg? (4 von 16)
Germany needed a transport link between the Reich and the cut-off East-Prussia region, formost because of energy deliveries. Poland received transfer payments in Zlotty. After 1933 Germany was not able to pay this amount and Poland started to close one of the 8 railway links after the other. From this the German wish to have an Autobahn emerges. This problem was already recognized by no one else than Churchill who addressed this issue in the House of Commons in 1932, that is before the rise of Hitler! He said that no prospect of permanent peace was to be expected before the issue had been settled once and for all. Hitler believed he had 2 trump cards to achieve his goals: in contrast to the Weimar governments he was willing to give in to a demand of Poland, namely to recognize that silesia would permanatly become Polish. Furthermore was Hitler willing to permanently handover the German city of Oderberg, situated in Czechoslvakia and conquered by the Poles. All this in return for his wished (corridor, Danzig, protection German minorities). Between 1933-1938 are the relations between Germany and Poland rather well. Begin 1939 Hitler proposes to make Danzig official German but economically it can remain Polish. Begin 1939 Poland is seen as a pariah state because of it’s aggressive behavior since Versailles. Begin 1939 Hitloer makes his mistake and invades Czechoslovakia. The British need Allies against Germany and they offer Poland an assistance treaty. Poland agrees. Partial Polish mobilization and heads towards East-Prussia. In reaction Hitler asks his Wehrmacht to prepare for a war against Poland. Poland refuses to negotiate about Danzig, which is declared as a Polish city (which it never was, it was the result of the Allied f888-up in Versailles, and 97% of the population wanted to be part of the Reich). Hitler asks Germany to negotiate with the Poles about the issue. Hitler proposes a plesbicite in Danzig to decide about it’s future. This was the last proposition from Germany’s side before the war.
Wer wollte den Krieg? (5 von 16)
Extremely interesting discovery by the speaker… before the Hitler-Stalin pact came about there had been negotiations between Russia, France and Britain. The latter two wanted a pact with Russia. In a secret annex they had offered the 3 Baltic states to Russia!!!! This would be later part of the agreement between Russia and Germany as well, but our noble Allies had offered the same thing!! So much for the ludicrous idea that Britain (and France) cared about the independenca of states; they were merely conduction Realpolitik! No difference in moral substance between Germans and British here. During following negotiations leading to the Molotov-Ribbentrop agreement there is consequent talk of independence for the Baltic states. When Ribbentrop travels to Moscow, 7 days before the start of the war, in order to sign the non-agression agreement, he expects to have to sign the independence for the 3 Baltic states. Ribbentrop is surprised when he learns what the content of the secret annex is, namely the division of Eastern Europe in spheres of influence between Germany and Russia. He phones Hitler, who is surprised as well. But he needs the non-agression agreement with Russia in order to intervene in the ever more pressing Polish situation. The secret annex was a surprise coupe of the Soviets, not something the Germans had asked for.
Wer wollte den Krieg? (6 von 16)
Because of a leak in the German ambassy, Roosevelt knew next morning about the content of the secret annex and that Poland was to be divided between Germany and Russia. Roosevelt never informed the Poles about this. He merely advised the Poles not to give in on the Danzig issue. With other words, Roosevelt was not interested in peace, but in war. If Poland would have known the content of the secret annex it had been certain that they would have give in to the German demands.
1:20 – end.
Wer wollte den Krieg (1 von 16)
Gert Schultze-Rohnhof wanted to find out if the Germans could have known between 1933-39 that Hitler was preparing for war. For this purpose he studied the expenditures for defense in that era. From this he wanted to conclude about the motives. So, if it was true that Hitler prepared for an Angriffskrieg then that should be clear from a comparative study. In Germany these figures cannot be found (except for the marines). SR had to rely on foreign data. His subject of interest was: “who started ww2?”.
1933-------------------Germany--------- French + Allies (Belgium, Poland, Czechoslowakia, Lituania)
Divisions------------------1------------------12
Grossverbaende ---------1------------------97
1939
Army----------------------1------------------2.5
A large majority of the Germans greeted the rearmament in 1933 because they were fed up that foreigner troops like French, Belgians, Poles and Lithuanians could do what the wanted in Germany. Germans wanted to be protected and a Reichswehr of 10 divisions could not deliver that security.
Even in 1939 one cannot accuse the Germans of overlooking aggressive intent of its own government considering the relative strength of the Army of Germany and it’s opponents.
Troubles in Europe increase after Germany demanded Danzig back in 1933. Just like everybody else the speaker always thought that Hitler wanted to solve the Danzig matter in 1939 with outrageous force. The classical explanation is that Hitler wanted not just Danzig but the rest of Poland as well.
Wer wollte den Krieg? (2 von 16)
The speaker reads this ‘quote’ from Hitler than can be found in any history schoolbook: “Ich habe nur Angst, daß mir noch im letzten Moment irgendein Schweinehund einen Vermittlungsplan vorlegt.” This statement was added during the Nuremberg trial into the protokol to be used as ‘proof’ against the main defendants. But in contrast until hours before the start of hostilities Hitler had given permission to Goering to negotiate with the British ambassy in Berlin in order to solve the Danzig issue without war. In the 10 days before the start of the war Hitler had asked the Italian, French and British government to mediate in order to avoid war. Hitler had send a 16 point proposition to the Polish government to solve differences. The Poles did not even want to read the proposition. It had to be sent via London. Cooper instructed the British media to paint the German propositions in the bleakest possible light. Britain was not interested in solving the crisis. Britain made sure that the proposition was not made public, not even in Germany. If they had the declaration of war of Britain and France would have met with a storm of protest. In the last 10 days before the war there were intensive negotiatons between London and Berlin. The issue was: the return of Danzig in the
Reich and the permission to build an Autobahn between the Reich and Danzig/East-Prussia. What is always downplayed is the precarious position of non-Polish citizens in the newly created Poland after 1919. Under the many minorities there were: Ukrainians (5M), Jews (2.5M), Germans (2M), and many more. 19 million Poles tried to linguistically ‘Polinize’ these 11 million non-Poles and to make them Catholic as well. The Poles ignored international treaties that told them the acknowledge minority rights. Minorities were supposed to disappear. 1 million Germans had already emigrated because they could not stand the conditions under which they had to live. The Poles applied torture to upport their ruthless assimilation policies.
Wer wollte den Krieg? (3 von 16)
It was so bad that 757,000 Jews moved from Poland to Germany between 1934-38, even after the persecution of the Jews there had already begun! In 1939 dramatic deterioration of the situation of the German minority in Poland. Confisation of farms, companies, violence in the street. Fleeing was difficult, people were shot. 80,000 German refugees had made it into Germany. Nothing of this is told in the official school books. In 1939 the Danzig and corridor issue was less pressing than the situation of the German minority in Poland. Hitler wanted to solve all these problems at once and had communicated this with the British and French. Hitler postponed 3 times an already settled date for the attack. Reason: Hitler needed time for negotiations. In the days before the outbreak of the war there was a shuttle diplomacy going on between London and Berlin with a Swedish mediator, Birger Dahlerus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birger_Dahlerus
From 3 independent sources (Berlin, London-Foreign Office, Dahlerus) the events can be confirmed.
Even before Versailles, Poland had taken German lands, like West-Prussia (70% German population). In 1933 the Polisgh army is almost 3 times that of Germany (300k v 100k). Poland is seen as a threat, even under democratic Weimar times. 1934 friendship treaty between Hitler and Pilsoedski. They both agree to divide pieces of Czechoslowakia (an artificial state created in Versailles) in 1938. Poland had captured land from all it’s neigsbours. Nowdays Poland would be called a rogue state. Meanwhile Danzig was not Polish but under UN jurisdiction.
Wer wollte den Krieg? (4 von 16)
Germany needed a transport link between the Reich and the cut-off East-Prussia region, formost because of energy deliveries. Poland received transfer payments in Zlotty. After 1933 Germany was not able to pay this amount and Poland started to close one of the 8 railway links after the other. From this the German wish to have an Autobahn emerges. This problem was already recognized by no one else than Churchill who addressed this issue in the House of Commons in 1932, that is before the rise of Hitler! He said that no prospect of permanent peace was to be expected before the issue had been settled once and for all. Hitler believed he had 2 trump cards to achieve his goals: in contrast to the Weimar governments he was willing to give in to a demand of Poland, namely to recognize that silesia would permanatly become Polish. Furthermore was Hitler willing to permanently handover the German city of Oderberg, situated in Czechoslvakia and conquered by the Poles. All this in return for his wished (corridor, Danzig, protection German minorities). Between 1933-1938 are the relations between Germany and Poland rather well. Begin 1939 Hitler proposes to make Danzig official German but economically it can remain Polish. Begin 1939 Poland is seen as a pariah state because of it’s aggressive behavior since Versailles. Begin 1939 Hitloer makes his mistake and invades Czechoslovakia. The British need Allies against Germany and they offer Poland an assistance treaty. Poland agrees. Partial Polish mobilization and heads towards East-Prussia. In reaction Hitler asks his Wehrmacht to prepare for a war against Poland. Poland refuses to negotiate about Danzig, which is declared as a Polish city (which it never was, it was the result of the Allied f888-up in Versailles, and 97% of the population wanted to be part of the Reich). Hitler asks Germany to negotiate with the Poles about the issue. Hitler proposes a plesbicite in Danzig to decide about it’s future. This was the last proposition from Germany’s side before the war.
Wer wollte den Krieg? (5 von 16)
Extremely interesting discovery by the speaker… before the Hitler-Stalin pact came about there had been negotiations between Russia, France and Britain. The latter two wanted a pact with Russia. In a secret annex they had offered the 3 Baltic states to Russia!!!! This would be later part of the agreement between Russia and Germany as well, but our noble Allies had offered the same thing!! So much for the ludicrous idea that Britain (and France) cared about the independenca of states; they were merely conduction Realpolitik! No difference in moral substance between Germans and British here. During following negotiations leading to the Molotov-Ribbentrop agreement there is consequent talk of independence for the Baltic states. When Ribbentrop travels to Moscow, 7 days before the start of the war, in order to sign the non-agression agreement, he expects to have to sign the independence for the 3 Baltic states. Ribbentrop is surprised when he learns what the content of the secret annex is, namely the division of Eastern Europe in spheres of influence between Germany and Russia. He phones Hitler, who is surprised as well. But he needs the non-agression agreement with Russia in order to intervene in the ever more pressing Polish situation. The secret annex was a surprise coupe of the Soviets, not something the Germans had asked for.
Wer wollte den Krieg? (6 von 16)
Because of a leak in the German ambassy, Roosevelt knew next morning about the content of the secret annex and that Poland was to be divided between Germany and Russia. Roosevelt never informed the Poles about this. He merely advised the Poles not to give in on the Danzig issue. With other words, Roosevelt was not interested in peace, but in war. If Poland would have known the content of the secret annex it had been certain that they would have give in to the German demands.
1:20 – end.
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9/11-investigator
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Our cowboy from Texas thinks that the US is the center of the world and that when other than english language sources are used, it was part of an 'obfuscation technique'. That is the attitude of Hillbillies who accidently were catapulted into world power (to be ended by the end of this decade at the latest).
aggle-rithm
Ardent Formulist
Well, first of all, I'm not a cowboy. Never have been. Neither me nor anyone I know owns a horse, a gun, or a single cow.
Your ignorance of other cultures is showing.
Second, how do you know what I think?
I'll tell you what I think. I think that you are well aware that this is an English language forum, and the chances that everyone in your intended audience speak German are very low.
Third, I do not trust the summary you have posted. You have a history of revealing only what supports your agenda.
9/11-investigator
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Interesting remark in the light of your next, namely that you do not speak German.
I am sure there are German speakers her, like Childlike_Empress and probably cloggies like ddt (and this stalker Hans?), who will confirm that the translation/summary is basically correct. It took me 2 hours but it was well worth the time investment. It is now clear to me that Hitler never sought war with Poland from early on. And that nobody cared about Poland. Neither Russia, Germany, Britain, France or America.
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aggle-rithm
Ardent Formulist
Interesting remark in the light of your next, namely that you do not speak German.
I actually do speak a little German (from my days studying music), but not enough to grasp the nuances of the sites you linked to.
Anyway, ignorance of a language is one thing. Attempting to extrapolate someone's personality traits based on their geographic location is something else entirely.
And yet, he was quite vocal from early on that we wanted the lands that separated the main part of Germany from East Prussia. How would he get that without war? He never proposed to the international community that it just be handed over to him, and Poland certainly wasn't going to part with it willingly.
Why would Russia care about Poland? Half the land that comprised it was taken from Russia after WWI.
If the other nations didn't care about Poland, then why was it reconstituted from Russian and German territory after WWI?
Andy_Ross
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I did the same with the Royal Navy. I met a lot of US Navy, Deutsche Marine, Royal Netherlands Navy, Marine nationale, Marina Militare, Armada Española, Kongelige Danske Marine and even the Russian Navy and apart from one of your Senior Chiefs in a bar in Naples I liked them all.
Gawdzilla Sama
TImeToSweepTheLeg
You still claim this. You still haven't proved it.
9/11-investigator
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Pity you do not speak German, otherwise the General-Major could have convinced you. Now you will never know.
Gawdzilla Sama
TImeToSweepTheLeg
One source? You're easily impressed.
For your version to be true the other versions would have to be false. You haven't falsified them. You've just provided propaganda for your claims.
9/11-investigator
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Do not take it too seriously. Sometimes I feel the urge to insult back.
He never said that. He only wanted a corridor, that is an Autobahn, that would connect The Reich to East-Prussia, not lands.
Danzig was not in Polish hands but under UN administration. The new insight is that he negotiated until a few days before the start of the war, via the British to get Danzig back. It was taken from the Germans by the guys that set up Germany for the rise of a Hitler because of this horrendous Versailles treaty. I mean the Allies.
Not Russia, but Britain ostensibly went to war with Germany because of poor Poland, boohoo. Poland, this rogue state created more or less out of thin air from German and Russian territory after WW1.
First of all to keep Germany as small as possible. Poland was shifted westwards like a big bag of potatoes, at the expense of Germany and to the gain of Russia.
Amazer
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Look, if you can't even get simple facts straight.... how am I trust your other sources?
Seriously... Danzig was under in UN administration in the 1930s?
MG1962
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Yes and he woudl know - given he was 4 months old when the war broke out. But I guess why should we doubt a person who admits his opinion goes against all other historians
But please tell me why his opinion should carry so much more weight than any other
ddt
Mafia Penguin
Do you really think I'm going to bother watching your videos? Your Generalmajor a.D. Schultze is a crackpot. The German wiki-page says about his book:
wiki said:
And the FAZ (the right-of-center German quality paper) recension says:
FAZ said:
About Schultze's position to primary sources, the FAZ quotes him:
FAZ said:
The reference to Helmut Metzmacher, "Deutsch-Englische Ausgleichsbemühungen im Sommer 1939", Vierteljahreshefte für Zeitgeschichte, 1966, 14. Jg. Nr 4, is ludicrous. I only skimmed the 40-page article, but he clearly describes how Hitler decided half July that he wasn't interested in the economic perks Britain proposed; instead initiated talks with the USSR. And that Hitler clearly was only interested in a "military solution" for Poland.
Sorry, I'm too lazy now to translate the German quotes.
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ddt
Mafia Penguin
That source, Schultze, is too. He uses the "dtv Atlas zur Weltgeschichte" as source - a 2 tome pocket book covering world history.
Gawdzilla Sama
TImeToSweepTheLeg
For everybody who may find it useful, a little checklist I picked up at Purdue:
Souce-Nature-Intent
The source of the evidence must be considered. (Like it or not, von Daniken isn't a good source.)
The nature of the evidence must be considered. (If trained observers see something in the ionosphere, it should be given more weight than if I see something up there.)
The intent of the evidence must be considered. (Is the evidence meant to prove that the Holocaust never happened or to give Nazism a boost in the rating at the expense of the millions who died at their hands.)
Souce-Nature-Intent
The source of the evidence must be considered. (Like it or not, von Daniken isn't a good source.)
The nature of the evidence must be considered. (If trained observers see something in the ionosphere, it should be given more weight than if I see something up there.)
The intent of the evidence must be considered. (Is the evidence meant to prove that the Holocaust never happened or to give Nazism a boost in the rating at the expense of the millions who died at their hands.)
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