Who started both World Wars?

[dafydd]

What do you mean, I got all my information from history books.
Point is, you don't like the historians liars like Buchanan, Scheil, Schultze-Rhonhof, Irving and many others whom I refer to.

Your problem.

ftfy

 

[TSR]

Sure, the Poles were not willing to give the German town of Danzig back, stolen by the alllies in Versailles, so an armed conflict was indeed inevitable. BTW this is the Polish crisis situtation. I did read Schultze-Rhonhof about that topic, not Scheil.

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Of course not -- you haven't actually read Sheil at all.

"It is not Danzig that is at stake. For us it is a matter of expanding our Lebensraum in the east" - Hitler.

I know you really *really* want that quote to go awway, but it's not gonna.
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The writer of this wikipedia article (were you likely got your unsourced quote from) 'forgets' to mention these 'unacceptable conditions'.

It's not unsourced, you been given the source five times, including this one: Der Welt, September 1, 2009.

< checks > It's not even unsourced ***in the article you cite***.

But thanks for the link: it details even more criticism of this half-baked "historian" than that about which I had known.

Care to try and address these criticisms of your authority-whom-you-do-not-cite-as-authority?
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Sure, it was Hitler who created these tensions by starting to kill Germans living in Poland.

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Speaking of unsourced, what evidence do you offer of the killing of Germans qua Germans in Danzig?
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The writer admits that the Poles were making 'martial sounds' and 'forgets' to say why: because the Poles had a British and French war garantee in their pockets and encouragement from Roosevelt to 'stay firm' and derived a false sense of security from it.

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No, the author states that the supposed *partial* "martial sounds" were in fact, meaningless -- and you completely skipped the part about the Nazis deliberately escalating tensions, and having been ready to attack in June '39.

The only thing false about the sense of security was the assumption that the Nazis would behave themselves -- and that was only false in the short term.

Remind me again, who was it got their *sses handed to them in the long run? Seems like Gdańsk is still there, solidly Polish, and a very important place in the eventual downfall of the USSR.
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What do you expect? Getting Danzig back meant war with Poland.

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"It is not Danzig that is at stake. For us it is a matter of expanding our Lebensraum in the east" - Hitler.
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The you quote this:

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No, *then* there is reference to a speech Hitler gave August 22, '39 to the Wehrmacht, discussing the need to defeat of Poland and destroy its leadership.

Funny that you missed that.

Now, why don't you tell us *whose* summary you're using here? Because that passage does *not* appear in the transcripts, as you seem to be implying.
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Scheil does not deny that. Stalin wanted to move westwards. Icebreaker, word not invented by Suvorov but used by all Soviet officers of the time.

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And your evidence for this "all Soviet officers of the time" claim is?

Answer: Suvorov's bald assertion that it was so.
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For you?
I am fighting against 30 of the likes like you, without any substantial problem, bringing you guys to a near meltdown yesterday, that you prevented. Credit to you for this.

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The only meltdown here was yours, until I goaded you into actually reporting those posts you felt were in violation, which resulted in more of *your* posts being moved than anyone else's and two warnings for you versus ... exactly zero for anyone else of whom I am aware.
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Sure, just deny that documents you do not like, don't exist.

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I don't deny that it might exist, just that it has not been *shown* to exist.

I have here a memorandum, stating that 9/11-investigator is a poopyhead.

Therefore, you are a poopyhead. Go ahead: deny that memorandum exists.
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[9/11-investigator]

http://www.lietuvos.org/istorija/1940_1990/Why_Hitler_Attacked_Russia.htm

Independent angle (von thadden) as to why Hitler attacked the USSR. For future reference.

Many Soviet documents captured by the Germans during the course of the war, as well as German intelligence reports on the Soviet buildup in 1941, amply justify Hitler's decision to strike. Presented before an impartial tribunal, this evidence surely would have exonerated the German military and political leadership. Unfortunately, all of these documents were confiscated and kept by the victorious Allies.

Author: Daniel W. Michaels retired from the US Department of Defense after 40 years of service. He is a Columbia University graduate (Phi Beta Kappa, 1954), and a Fulbright exchange student to Germany (1957). He writes from his home in Washington, DC.

 

[Wroclaw]

I'm going to presume to speak again for the group. NOBODY HERE trusts your translations of material. Please transcribe the points in German and we'll translate them ourselves.

 

[TSR]

Author: Daniel W. Michaels retired from the US Department of Defense
after 40 years of service.

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... as a janitor.

G'head: prove me wrong.
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He is a Columbia University graduate (Phi Beta Kappa, 1954),

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In geology. Which is, of course, a primary qualification for some to comment about history.

Hey Nick Terry: when did *you* get your degree in geology?
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and a Fulbright exchange student to Germany (1957).

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... where he studied International Relations, in that he slept with a couple of German girls.

Is there any particular expertise or training in, you know, that whole history thingy in his past?
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He writes from his home in Washington, DC.

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Oh, my bad. He lives in D.C., so anything he has to say about WWII is automatically gospel.

Wait.


Who was it that was *just* whining (dishonestly) about that whole, you know, unsourced thingy?






Meanwhile the 16 Questions go unanswered.
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[Nick Terry]

For your information, your hero prof Nick comes from the world of sex, drugs and rock and roll:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killswitch_Engage

That the ideal preparation for a career as holo enforcer.

Why, thanks for highlighting another Wikipedia article which quotes me.

FYI, I'd earned my PhD several months before writing that review. It is possible to have hobbies, you know...

But I'm curious: how is writing as a music journalist the 'ideal' preparation for teaching about the Holocaust? Or are you completely clueless about popular culture as well as modern history?

 

[Wroclaw]

Note that my opponents never adressed:

1. the damning quote from the NMT site avalon from Robert Jackson.

You're making the mistake of thinking that the ideas Jackson is citing (France the real aggressor, Norway invaded by Germany to prevent the UK from doing same) constitute his opinions.

They do not.

He is citing moral equivalency arguments made by other people.

After all, in the same paragraph, he states:

Now, if the question comes up, what is a judge to do about it I would say that, before one is judged guilty of being an aggressor, we must not only let him deny it, but say we will hear his case. I am quite sure a British or American judge would say to a defendant, "You may prove your claim", unless we had something like this which says, "No political, military, or other considerations excuse going to war". In other words, states have got to settle their grievances peacefully. I am afraid there is great risk in omitting this, and I see no risk in putting it in. It may be criticized, but I see no such risk in putting it in as in leaving it out. We did not think it necessary originally, but more recently we have.

Not exactly what you're getting at, is it?

2. the fact the Churchill was a paid stooge by the Jews.

He wasn't. Arguably, Churchill allowed Jews to be murdered rather than let them emigrate to Palestine, due to the (probably justified) fear that a Jewish presence in Palestine would undermine British colonialism and de-stabilized the Suez Canal.

By the way, are you aware that Churchill routinely had Jews from Axis countries detained in the UK from 1939 forward?

3. the German peace offers

You have cited one author and refuse to cite him in the original language. Furthermore, you chose rather the controversial historian.

So I'd say that point is far from proven.

 

[dafydd]

You're making the mistake of thinking that the ideas Jackson is citing (France the real aggressor, Norway invaded by Germany to prevent the UK from doing same) constitute his opinions.

They do not.

He is citing moral equivalency arguments made by other people.

After all, in the same paragraph, he states:



Not exactly what you're getting at, is it?



He wasn't. Arguably, Churchill allowed Jews to be murdered rather than let them emigrate to Palestine, due to the (probably justified) fear that a Jewish presence in Palestine would undermine British colonialism and de-stabilized the Suez Canal.

By the way, are you aware that Churchill routinely had Jews from Axis countries detained in the UK from 1939 forward?



You have cited one author and refuse to cite him in the original language. Furthermore, you chose rather the controversial historian.

So I'd say that point is far from proven.

When has Nein ever proved anything here?

 

[TSR]

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Well, it would appear that anything in that post that *wasn't* a personal attack on another member was off topic to the question of who started both world wars.

If you disagree, you can always appeal.

It the appropriate forum
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Sorry *in* the appropriate forum.
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[Harpo]

That is why Hess had to be strangled in Spandau in 1987 by the British secret service (under the responsibility of war criminal Tony Blair, who ordered the murder of David Kelly as well)

So Tony Blair was the Prime Minister in 1987?

Your understanding of (modern) history, as evidenced by your 3,500+ posts, is non-existent.

Nazi apologist is still making excuses for his vanquished heroes. What a maroon!!

 

[TSR]

So Tony Blair was the Prime Minister in 1987?

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No, worse: he was a member of the Shadow Cabinet, and it that's not ominous, nothing is.

I mean, let's face it -- his long form birth certificate lists Z'ha'dum as his place of birth...
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[Corsair 115]

I mean, let's face it -- his long form birth certificate lists Z'ha'dum as his place of birth...

And the doctor was listed as one Mr. Morden...

 

[Tolls]

So Tony Blair was the Prime Minister in 1987?

Your understanding of (modern) history, as evidenced by your 3,500+ posts, is non-existent.

Nazi apologist is still making excuses for his vanquished heroes. What a maroon!!

Oh, I missed that one!
Should we be building up a list of our Dutch Investigators historical howlers?

 

[Craig4]

So Tony Blair was the Prime Minister in 1987?

Your understanding of (modern) history, as evidenced by your 3,500+ posts, is non-existent.

Nazi apologist is still making excuses for his vanquished heroes. What a maroon!!

I'm not to worried about our Dutch friend leading the next revolution. I think he'd get lots of followers but only out of a morbid sense of curiosity.

 

[Wroclaw]

I think we're all seriously underestimating the international reach that could be obtained in 1987 by the Member of Parliament for the Sedgefield constituency.

 

[TSR]

You hardly ever are able to corner me like you did in these 2 examples, forcing me to admit a mistake, meaning that I am very well subjected to reason and that your case is not as strong as you would like.

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That's more because you hardly ever admit it, than you not making them.

Which is why The 16 Questions are still unanswered.
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[dafydd]

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That's more because you hardly ever admit it, than you not making them.

Which is why The 16 Questions are still unanswered.
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Nein would rather tell us about his ignorance of history. I haven't forgotten the Russians at Waterloo.

 

[Tolls]

Nein would rather tell us about his ignorance of history. I haven't forgotten the Russians at Waterloo.

Maybe he's doing this as an Animal House tribute?

 

[Craig4]

Nein would rather tell us about his ignorance of history. I haven't forgotten the Russians at Waterloo.

I'd say we have nothing to fear from the Nazi rally lots of support. Jeering, mocking crowds perhaps but not support.

 

[Jono]

So who started WW1 and WW2?

Europeans.