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who perpetrated this Libyan massacre?

Thank you, Rolfe, for explaining that so I didn't have to try. It seems Daffydd is taking the easiest way out of something he'd rather not discuss. Such a paradox, as other member won't even put their names on that denial by speaking up in defense of it like that. So again, thanks also DD. Silent masses: not impressed.

No answer to the video findings? It's okay ... you don't have to care. There's a holocaust denier (or revisionist, anyway, I don't know his thing there) involved, so it must be bunk. And hey, here's another easy one I'm getting at Youtube a lot - this apparently real and very relevant video was shown on Libyan state TV. Instant propaganda dismissal option! It must be fake somehow, can't be bothered to support that assumption with anything, bye-bye.

Man it's easy to dismiss things and move on. Easier yet to do it anonymous and silent-like. Plenty of potential politicians and military leaders at this forum. Go team us!
 
dafydd said:
Does it worry you that you are cosying up to a Holocaust denying Jew hater?
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I haven't seen the signs of Jew-hate yet, but in general, it tends to the unsettling, to some extent. Not anything to panic over. I would notice any slide towards holocaust denial or similar lunacy, if that's what you mean. And I haven't felt a thing. I know just where I am, solid footing, right in front of the best evidence available about this killing of 22 loyalists, and the best viewpoint to be able to put it together correctly. I dare you to test your own viewpoint against the evidence.

And again, the link to my pretty exhaustive article, since the evidence goes beyond the videos shown to the events before that set the stage:
Behind the Scenes of the al-Baida massacre.

I did realize off the bat that LGR's involvement, as helpful as it was, would give a lot of people an easy excuse to sit it out. Looks like that was right on.

That is is the reason why nobody else is joining in.
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Oh, is it? You might be right, in fact, from what I've seen. IMO, it's a lame excuse, but if it helps, I'll try this:

LGR, would you mind terribly, even though you're the only one who's been willing to discuss this for real, sitting it out from here on, at least until a few more lurkers can bear to speak up?

It's worth a try. Maybe someone will finally pop on down to the silent treatment dungeon and explain why this is all Libyan propaganda fake video irrelevant smear-tactics against the peaceful protesters of eastern Libya, from the Islamic Emirate of Dernah to rebel capital Banghazi, to the western front lines we're creating for them.

Anyway, no one's the boss of anyone else here, but could you maybe make one last post for now to make it officially safe? 'Twould be appreciated if so, and I'd owe you one.
 
Libya seems to be a bit of a hell-hole all round. Gadaffi is generally acknowledged to be a murderous tyrant, and just look at the start of the 1984 footage of the murder of Yvonne Fletcher. That's how long this has been going on for - and longer.

The thing is, why is anyone assuming that any anti-Gadaffi rebellion is going to be composed entirely of starry-eyed idealists with no other thought than to deliver freedom and democracy to their beloved homeland? I'm sure some of them do fit that description, but all? Gimme a break.

This sort of development is the perfect opportunity for other factions within Libya to make their bid for power - factions that may well be just as unpleasant as Gadaffi or even more so. The probability of such factions joining themselves with the rebels and trying to advance their own cause and gain favour with the western powers under the umbrella of the "popular protest" seems to me to be about 100%.

I can even name one of them. Jalil.

This is nasty vicious in-fighting, and I very much doubt that there are any good guys in the story. And the coalition seems mainly focussed on getting what it wants out the other end - a regime that will be pliable and sell all the oil everyone wants.

Meh.

Rolfe.
 
Caustic Logic said:
Thank you, Rolfe, for explaining that so I didn't have to try. It seems Daffydd is taking the easiest way out of something he'd rather not discuss. Such a paradox, as other member won't even put their names on that denial by speaking up in defense of it like that. So again, thanks also DD. Silent masses: not impressed.

No answer to the video findings? It's okay ... you don't have to care. There's a holocaust denier (or revisionist, anyway, I don't know his thing there) involved, so it must be bunk. And hey, here's another easy one I'm getting at Youtube a lot - this apparently real and very relevant video was shown on Libyan state TV. Instant propaganda dismissal option! It must be fake somehow, can't be bothered to support that assumption with anything, bye-bye.

Man it's easy to dismiss things and move on. Easier yet to do it anonymous and silent-like. Plenty of potential politicians and military leaders at this forum. Go team us!
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I'll join in if LGR condemns the Nazis for executing millions. The sight of him crying crocodile tears over this is repellent.
 
dafydd said:
I'll join in if LGR condemns the Nazis for executing millions. The sight of him crying crocodile tears over this is repellent.
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What on earth does that have to do with the discussion of the Libyan situation? You intend to give LGR the power to silence you in any thread at all, simply by making a post in it?

And has it occurred to you that LGR is simply trolling on the holocaust denial thing, and your reaction is exactly what he was hoping to achieve?

Rolfe.
 
Rolfe said:
What on earth does that have to do with the discussion of the Libyan situation? You intend to give LGR the power to silence you in any thread at all, simply by making a post in it?

And has it occurred to you that LGR is simply trolling on the holocaust denial thing, and your reaction is exactly what he was hoping to achieve?

Rolfe.
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A question was asked about why nobody was joining in. I gave my opinion.
 
yawn ...

Okay, I wasn't able to get a confirmation of LGR staying out, but he seems to be staying out. Anyone else care to contest what I've shown here?

Or discuss the possible conspiracy theory angles here? Earlier I focused on the rebel end of passing off this massacre of 22, and about 100-110 others, off as their enemy's work.

But really, the possible conspiracy that matters more is the outside support that claim received. Information was available showing that a large force of loyalists was overcome near al-Baida by Feb 21 at the latest, leaving the rebels the only ones in much position to kill anyone in numbers.

The 200 survivors of this overwhelmed force give their original numbers as 325, yet when 130 soldiers are reported killed there at that time, as of the 22 found on the 23rd, human rights groups were announcing, the same day, that Gaddafi's omnipotent commanding officers were responsible for each and every one of those executions. And this was a good chunk of the scary, panic-inducing story of total genocide requiring urgent action.

So ... is that some internationalist conspiracy to use propaganda for promoting regime change in Libya, or just slightly careless work/leaning towards the side of caution vis-a-vis ignoring possible holocausts? Which wound up serving as war-supporting propaganda?

Or were there two separate mass-killings of loyalists, of 125 by the "protesters," for shooting at them, and of 130 by the regime for refusing to shoot those "protesters?"
 
dafydd said:
War is a dirty game,it always has been so.
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Well, Caustic Logic, if that comment wasn't ample reward for investigations I don't know what is.

Of course I am sure if you were to ask Daffyd about the appalling case of Eman Al-Obeidi the very heavens themselves could not contain his outrage and compassion.
 
little grey rabbit said:
Well, Caustic Logic, if that comment wasn't ample reward for investigations I don't know what is.

Of course I am sure if you were to ask Daffyd about the appalling case of Eman Al-Obeidi the very heavens themselves could not contain his outrage and compassion.
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Never heard of him. It's Dafydd.
 
dafydd said:
War is a dirty game,it always has been so.
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Yes indeed. Dirtier yet when you go into it with grossly inaccurate information, and dirtier yet again when that's just what you want, to obscure the real, structural motives.

But that wasn't much of a response, or worth the game-playing. Little Gray Rabbit, sorry for trying. Everyone, carry on.
 
Caustic Logic said:
Yes indeed. Dirtier yet when you go into it with grossly inaccurate information, and dirtier yet again when that's just what you want, to obscure the real, structural motives.

.
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Just like LGR's information about the Holocaust.
 
little grey rabbit said:
Terrible new video!

http://www.libyafeb17.com/2011/03/t...to-praise-gaddafi-shots-fired-ending-unclear/
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I've about run the course with the main video, and this seems a good spot to discuss something like this other rather suspect video.

Premise: Gaddafi soldier decides to make a propaganda video of himself forcing a rebel to praise Gaddafi. Shoots him in both legs (unseen), rebels is crawling, leaving blood trails, falls on his back. Soldier looks down, demands praise for Gaddafi, gets only "God is Great." Oh, heroism and bravery! They will not surrender to this cartoonish brutality! Camera pans suddenly away at sound of shots, no head explosion to fake, handy. Also allows alternate endings ... who shot who at just that moment? Did the hero survive? Those camo legs scattering suggests forces came under fire from elsewhere at the heroic moment! ... is that camo consistent with Libyan forces? None that I recall seeing.

Anyway, these kinds of things will surely improve with time. The NED will establish a special-effects department, probably an iPhone app to access off-site CG artists with a massive data base of consistent animations with adjustable lighting, etc. Anything to help freedom.
 
In a situation like Libya you get people settling old scores and getting revenge. It always happens.
 
Caustic Logic said:
I've about run the course with the main video, and this seems a good spot to discuss something like this other rather suspect video.

Premise: Gaddafi soldier decides to make a propaganda video of himself forcing a rebel to praise Gaddafi. Shoots him in both legs (unseen), rebels is crawling, leaving blood trails, falls on his back. Soldier looks down, demands praise for Gaddafi, gets only "God is Great." Oh, heroism and bravery! They will not surrender to this cartoonish brutality! Camera pans suddenly away at sound of shots, no head explosion to fake, handy. Also allows alternate endings ... who shot who at just that moment? Did the hero survive? Those camo legs scattering suggests forces came under fire from elsewhere at the heroic moment! ... is that camo consistent with Libyan forces? None that I recall seeing.

Anyway, these kinds of things will surely improve with time. The NED will establish a special-effects department, probably an iPhone app to access off-site CG artists with a massive data base of consistent animations with adjustable lighting, etc. Anything to help freedom.
Click to expand...

It has now appeared on Al Jazeera as a "news story"
http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-april-2
but this time the actor has had his status upgraded to that of doctor.
There is some more footage with a big discontinuity gap - no sign of exploded head or chest though.
 
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