who perpetrated this Libyan massacre?

[little grey rabbit]

It should be pointed out that the Libyan government's death toll

The Libyan government said on Tuesday that 300 people had died in the protests, including 111 soldiers.

If, and I stress if true, it would be hard to argue that the army's response was totally disproportionate. Less disproportionate that Operation Cast Lead.

Of course, I know you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs, but all the security-defense establishment ever seem to end up with is lots of broken eggs and no fricking omelette

 

[Caustic Logic]

Yeah, true. I should include the rest of that short piece. Its date, old now, is Feb 23.

Belhassen, who heads the Paris-based IFHR, said the toll was based on military sources for Tripoli and on Libyan rights groups assessments in Benghazi and elsewhere.

The Libyan government said on Tuesday that 300 people had died in the protests, including 111 soldiers.

I don't know about these rights groups, or just what evidence made anyone clear who killed those 130 soldiers in the first days of this civil war.

What I recall about the number of deaths in Tripoli is that Gaddafi's numbers wound up pretty close with outside estimates. Apparently there is some discrepancy, with Triploi's on the side that makes them look better, of course. It seems that at this time, they simply weren't acknowledging these massacred at al-Baida (were they counting lives lost, or lives taken, and tallying accordingly, with these "under investigation," etc.?) 130 is itself higher than the entire number of soldier deaths cited then.

Eventually, that video was found (or faked? Anyone?) and they decided these were killed by rebels.

The huge discrepancy in death tolls comes in mostly on the Benghazi side, where one tally figures in these deaths as attributed to the government/on the protester side. That seems to be in question.

And that was the desperate plight nearly a month ago in besieged Benghhazi, with a government kill rate possibly exaggerated by at least 130%.

 

[little grey rabbit]

As for the executed in Al Baida, if it is Al Baida - it was only 15 or so people. At least that is what most reports say. OK, "only" is the wrong world, but "only" in comparision to 130.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20110223/wl_time/08599205349000

Many were captured during fierce clashes between residents and Gaddafi's forces last week; and in the ensuing chaos, a group of men from al-Baida executed 15 of the suspected mercenaries on Friday and Saturday in front of the town's court house. They were hanged, says the country's former Justice Minister Mustafa Mohamed Abd Al-Jalil (who recently quit and joined the revolution): it wasn't entirely planned, but the people here were enraged.

However, there were also reports of 50 being burnt to death when the mob set fire to the prison holding prisoners. 15 looks about right for that video - which of course doesn't exclude plenty more outside the short time frame of that video in other places.

 

[Caustic Logic]

First, Rolfe ... you mentioned that this story was in the news over there. Did you mean the massacre story, or the massacre story having some sort of problem? If the latter, or the former, I suppose, any links handy?

As for the executed in Al Baida, if it is Al Baida - it was only 15 or so people. At least that is what most reports say. OK, "only" is the wrong world, but "only" in comparision to 130.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20110223/wl_time/08599205349000


However, there were also reports of 50 being burnt to death when the mob set fire to the prison holding prisoners. 15 looks about right for that video - which of course doesn't exclude plenty more outside the short time frame of that video in other places.

These guys weren't burnt or hanged, it seems. From what I'm seeing, 130 is the number at al-Baida, executed, hands bound, like these. (including the "survivor"?) If so, it's looking like peaceful protesters / citizen-fighters responsible for at least 198 unnecessary killings there, including the two hanged police officers. It might be higher.

The pre-massacre video shows nine prisoners, one (#4) about 16 years old or so, lined up on a couch. The later video shows at least 20-25 corpses, and is widely cited as being of this massacre. That's not the full 130, if there were that many, but it's more than the nine we saw alive.

These are the prisoners seen in the Libyan TV video:

That this video and the aftermath line up is based on the Libyan TV analysis. I think the three prisoners of the nine appearing dead (not for posting here) are pretty good guesses. The ones they identified by color, build, and clothing, are #6, #8, and #9 as shown here. I kind of think the one laying across #6's backside, with his brains all over his blue camo legs and the ground, is #5. But it's hard to tell with no face.

He spends half the video pleading with, explaining, begging, to the captor #2 as I've called him, just off camera (that's #1, unseen). #2 has a long beard, holding a walking stick, possible robe (or is that a Gandalf/Osama leap of imagination?) He patiently comforts the distressed young man, then finally makes him shut up and sit down. Later he dramatically turns to the big black guy, #9, causing a brief moment of total fright, as seen here.

Other captors later.

 

[Rolfe]

It was in the news for having problems. The BBC related just what you have pointed out - that the interview with the "dying victim" seemed to have been edited in, and the apparent victim wasn't in the same condition as the dead people (no head wound, not tied up).

I'm afraid I wasn't paying a huge amount of attention at the time. I didn't pick up on which side was being accused of what.

Rolfe.

 

[little grey rabbit]

The only one I was absolutely appeared shot with tied hands was #8 - he has a distinctive top that can be recognised. I didnt freeze frame the video to be certain about the other claims - however I expect they are true.

Did the people interrogating/haranguing them get shown at any point?

 

[Caustic Logic]

It was in the news for having problems. The BBC related just what you have pointed out - that the interview with the "dying victim" seemed to have been edited in, and the apparent victim wasn't in the same condition as the dead people (no head wound, not tied up).

I'm afraid I wasn't paying a huge amount of attention at the time. I didn't pick up on which side was being accused of what.

Rolfe.

That'll do. It's only one of two problems, however. That looks strange (and really the whole idea is strange - how many other soldiers did it take to tie up and execute 130? Really?). But we also have, and no one seems to care, good proof of either Gaddafi's media's ability to organize a very convincing fake video to explain this, or good evidence we've all been hoodwinked and are blowing up Libya to help hand it over to uncivilized war criminals with no compunction about denying this and fobbing it off on the enemy.

To clarify my CT, by the way, it's that. It was probably not planned as a false flag op, but as a massacred of hated enemies. Someone among them, or someone else, decided it looked very bad for their side, and was too big to hide, so the cover story was made.

And the survivor is only one half of that. The larger and more cited and more credible seeming support is the IFHR's statement this was a government job. Just what that was based on isn't clear.

 

[Caustic Logic]

The only one I was absolutely appeared shot with tied hands was #8 - he has a distinctive top that can be recognised. I didnt freeze frame the video to be certain about the other claims - however I expect they are true.

Did the people interrogating/haranguing them get shown at any point?

Yep. Well, #2 seems to talk a lot, and other people on the captors side re shown. I don't know how many people speak . no audio analysis yet, little point. I have screen caps of five captors. Tomorrow. One looks fully caucasian (Russian/Chechen?) and carries an assault rifle. A machete-type blade is seen across the screen at one point.

I wish I could understand Arabic.

 

[little grey rabbit]

I don't think the "survivor" was really planned as a cover story, rather to create propaganda about Gadaffi sending African mercenaries to massacres democratically uprising protesters.

Deceit 1: "Muammar sent us". This creates the first narrative - Gadaffi is sending mercenaries to massacre peaceful demonstrators. They "confessed" and were summarily executed - as they deserved. Whether or not they were soldiers or mercenaries or just ordinary soldiers trying to do their job or just random Africans or a combination - who can say? The "survivor" is just trying to add more "proof" as in the twisted minds of the cameraman and friends this was really good stuff.

Intermission: Someone leaks the footage to the Government side and it is broadcast on TV. The media control center alarm bells ring - this looks horrific.

Deceit 2: Construct a 2nd narrative and claim that these were soldiers executed on Gadaffi's personal orders for refusing to fire on protesters.


Not that I guess that it makes any difference to the victims, but these people will never appear in any glossy publications of Amnesty or Human Rights Watch. Their only comment, should it come to their notice at all, would be an expression of regret that they weren't Dafurese - in which they could have been used in some excellent and highly successful fund raising campaigns.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Huh. For a holocaust-denying "troll" - as the sayings go - you keep showing a capability for saying things that make total sense to me (within the few spots we're discussing anything lately). It's true that "muammar sent us" (not even said on-screen, that we see, so poorly capitalized on if it was acting) does not, in itself, say "and then ordered us shot for refusing to shoot you guys." Not even what the mockumentarian narrator adduced from it,

These guys have been killed here. You can see the bullet shells strewn all over. He said from AzZawiyah, he said Mu’ammar sent him… Give him water. Alright alright, don’t give him too much, you might kill him.

clearly says that.

Deceit 2, as you call it, if it exists as a deceit, occurred somewhere prior to the announcement of the IFHR's conclusions. That's all I could say for sure.

Intermission: Someone leaks the footage to the Government side and it is broadcast on TV. The media control center alarm bells ring - this looks horrific.

How the state TV would get ahold of such a video as this, if it's what it seems, is a good question. Non-wiki-leaked to Tripoli makes some sense - someone conscientious enough to rip a copy for "their mosque's library," only to let the government see this so the world could see it. A few have now. Alternately, we have other methods of interception (capture of someone with a copy, unlikely, or interception upon internet transmission, etc.) for this this being Behind the Scenes of the al-Baida Massacre.

Otherwise, there are two main possibilities. And again, this deserves de-bunking or attempts. The alternatives I see, and some more details, will be in the next post.

 

[Caustic Logic]

So ... the alternatives to these two videos being before-and-after are this:

1 - A Gaddafi lie, faked to "explain" their al-Baida massacre as on the hands of barbaric Islamist rebels.
2 - It's a genuine public criticism of some soldier/merc types, unconnected to the al-Baida massacre (which could have happened in any number of ways, just by that).

If 1, it seems a masterful job to me - very well-acted and just consistent enough. But why bother? No one in the world deciding about the bombing targets has seen it or will likely be convinced by anything on Daffy Gaddafi's TV.

As for number 2, first I need to clarify the claim that the videos go together is perhaps explained in the newscast (must find a translator). But it's partly visible on-screen, and we can double-check it. I was going to upload those screen caps and just offer external links, but Photobucket isn't letting me. For now anyway, the video (Yotube link - again, graphic) - time stamps they used to say prisoners #6, 8 and 9 as I've got them here: #6 4:00, #9 4:07, #8 4:18.

The one they decided was #6 might have too much hair at the top (angles, off-center bald spot, etc.), buth otherwise is consistent. #9 is entirely consistent, but not a clear match - few would be that build and dressed the same, so it's a good guess. #8 by the more distinctive civilian striped sweater and otherwise apparent match is the strongest. All three combined, about 1/3 of those seen in the before video, amongst about 1/5 of the total victims reported, makes sense.

Now, for the captors/haraguers, and all those not on the couch, that can be glimpsed. #1 is the cameraman, and #2 someone I almost think is an Imam or something. See above. He seems to be directing things, deciding who speaks. He might be the only questioner. I'll check that later. The rest of them:

# 3 - masked, leans briefly on couch to the right of prisoner #9. Holding ... a cell phone?

#4 - quite Caucasian of a half-Russian look (?). Seems to be guarding, a pro. At one point steps over and says something to the prisoners in the left corner.

#5 - also apparently a guard, a pro of some type. Ethnicity and such, ambiguous. Has a certain sensitivity, maybe not 100% happy to be there.

#6 - this one is odd. Black, possibly female, possibly shrill, juts in at #9 briefly from low. Weraing ... something weird.

Someone is holding a machete at one point - from the side of the room (right), perhaps #3. It seems there are several other people in the room behind the camera, in a very social scene. Outside the window lattices can be seen it's night, and a crowd of people is watching from outside.

Alright then. Discuss.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Sorry, didn't mean to sound bossy. I just thought that with images to work from, people might take an interest in this story. I find it fascinating. What's up with everyone else (aside from LGR of course)? Is it boring? Too obvious and mundane? Too confusing? Eyes glazing over?

 

[Caustic Logic]

Youtube comments from an informed viewer:

Propaganda delivered by Libyan State TV, supposedly showing the revolutionaries maltreating Libyan soldiers, the first video shows an interrogation of Gaddafi soldiers by revolutionaries, I agree the questioning was haphazard and noisy, but they dont look abused, beaten, tied or maltreated. the 2nd video shows executed soldiers, which libyan state TV claims were executed by the revolutionaries, but in fact they were killed by pro-gaddafi troops for disobeying orders, the validity of this..(cont)

(cont) can be easily verified by watching many other videos that clearly demonstrate pro-gaddafi executions. The only video which I cannot defend is the hanging, the person in question should have been captured and had a fair trial, my only comment is, these incidents are very rare, and most videos show the protesters actually protecting the pro-gaddafi troops from angry mobs. The comments the "news reader" made at the end were false, she said that the interrogators asked their prisoners.(cont)

(cont) who their "emir" was, trying to invoke fear of islamists, in truth the interrogators asked who the commanding officer was "dobaat" then asked who is the boss "raees" then "they asked who is "emir", so to try to portray them as islamists is incorrect, she was also trying to insinuate that the Eastern part of libya were in a war against the western part of libya. In summary , this is the type of "news" that the people in tripoli are subjected to 24 hours a day.

So despite three of the massacred soldiers in the unrelated incident matching so well three in that "interrogation," this guy is sure the events are totally separate. And you can know this if you watch enough videos of other regime executions - they always have people in them who match other people in unrelated videos.

War? Ha! just protest and repression. Pack o lies, it is! Death to Gaddafi! Long live the Emirate of Somalia on the Mediterranean!

 

[Caustic Logic]

Just a quick update - here and elsewhere I've been met with questions about whether this video is of "130 soldiers/mercs," killed by whoever. I've deferred to the articles saying so, but I've now watched three different recordings of this set, and none of them show any other bodies nearby at all. There are 22 dead here, 23 counting the "dying soldier." I found an article from Time (mentioned by LGR above) that spoke with a captured mercenary among "roughly 200" held in an old school at Shehat, 5 miles east of al-Baida:

“Given their claim that there were once 325 of them — flown in from Libya's southern town of Sabha — the remaining men consider themselves lucky. Many were captured during fierce clashes between residents and Gaddafi's forces last week; in the ensuing chaos, a group of men from al-Baida executed 15 of the suspected mercenaries on Feb. 18 and 19 in front of the town's courthouse. They were hanged, says the country's former Justice Minister Mustafa Mohamed Abd al-Jalil (who has quit and joined the revolution). It wasn't entirely planned, but the people here were enraged.

So now I'm leaning to app. 125-130 of them, in toto, killed in and around al-Baida the intense fighting and after, not all at this one site. Fifteen confirmed hanged elsewhere, some other incidents I haven't sorted out, and here are 22 more, executed by gunshots. 130 total or so, as IFHR said, and ... all killed by their commanding officers (who then melted away?) for refusing to shoot protesters? If that 130 does indeed include the fifteen hanged, we know the number's at least partly wrong. It's clear these 22 are included in that also, and if the video from al-Libya is connected as it seems, we have at least 37 of those 130 killed by the civilian protesters themselves.

 

[little grey rabbit]

Sorry, didn't mean to sound bossy. I just thought that with images to work from, people might take an interest in this story. I find it fascinating. What's up with everyone else (aside from LGR of course)? Is it boring? Too obvious and mundane? Too confusing? Eyes glazing over?

Its really not surprising. There are certain places on the internet where certain people gather and these certain people - no matter how noisy or contentious their disputes - have an agenda which they will not allow to be disturbed by actual facts.

I don't know if you remember the Iranian elections and the Death of Neda?
Press-TV did a short TV documentary that show it was a fake.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEb4QHR4k9Y
I think this youtube is unanswerable really.

But the minute it came out I knew it was staged and using the arguments above and many others I tried to show (on a JREF-like forum) that it was an obvious fake. Like you find here with this obvious execution by the insurgents - complete and utter silence.

You could take this Press-TV video and send it to every journalist in the Western World and you would get the same response - as a complete and a total silence as if you were in Stalinist Russia or Goebbel's Germany.

So why be so surprised that no one seems at all interested in this execution of men with hands tied behind their back? Of course, if it had been possible to blame the Libyan Government the heavens could not have contained the outrage of the BBC, CNN, ABC, NYTimes, Reuters, AP, AFP, The Guardian et al.......

 

[dafydd]

Sorry, didn't mean to sound bossy. I just thought that with images to work from, people might take an interest in this story. I find it fascinating. What's up with everyone else (aside from LGR of course)? Is it boring? Too obvious and mundane? Too confusing? Eyes glazing over?

In don't care.

 

[dafydd]

Its really not surprising. There are certain places on the internet where certain people gather and these certain people - no matter how noisy or contentious their disputes - have an agenda which they will not allow to be disturbed by actual facts.

I don't know if you remember the Iranian elections and the Death of Neda?
Press-TV did a short TV documentary that show it was a fake.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEb4QHR4k9Y
I think this youtube is unanswerable really.

But the minute it came out I knew it was staged and using the arguments above and many others I tried to show (on a JREF-like forum) that it was an obvious fake. Like you find here with this obvious execution by the insurgents - complete and utter silence.

You could take this Press-TV video and send it to every journalist in the Western World and you would get the same response - as a complete and a total silence as if you were in Stalinist Russia or Goebbel's Germany.

So why be so surprised that no one seems at all interested in this execution of men with hands tied behind their back? Of course, if it had been possible to blame the Libyan Government the heavens could not have contained the outrage of the BBC, CNN, ABC, NYTimes, Reuters, AP, AFP, The Guardian et al.......

Your Nazi heroes executed many people with and without their hands tied behind their backs.

 

[Caustic Logic]

In don't care.

Well thanks for saying so. I shan't pick on you for speaking up with what I guess is a pretty representative view. Gaddafi's forces are being bombed in the dozens or hundreds and his regime overthrown for a number of reported crimes like this, their responsibility for 130 murders of their own defecting soldiers in the al-Baida area. Even though the rebels killed probably all of them in cold blood. And we're handin over control of the country to those blaming-others Islamist, terrorist, war criminals.

"Boring! Bring on th col.'s death, I HATE that slimy little worm! In an inexplicably acute way, considering I've never met him and don't really know what evil he's ordered compared to just been accused of!"

LGR: Watched the video. I'm not convinced of the whole allegation, but it does look like she pours that blood on her own face. I'd rather not go into it any more here, though.

I made one more observation about the body match-up between al-Libya's video and the rebels' video of "another Gaddafi massacre." Again, prisoner #8 is undeniably in both videos. Same sweater, pants, skin, and gangly build. The corpse version has a notable hunched-back. And the prisoner of same description sits with a permanent slouch entirely consistent with such a defect. It's undeniable - at least two of these nine are not shown among the 22 dead (unless with changed clothes - the kid, #4 is one of those maybe spared), but at least this one, and as many as six of the others, are in both videos.

Here's my detailed article on it:
http://12-7-9-11.blogspot.com/2011/03/behind-scenes-of-al-baida-massacre.html

 

[dafydd]

Well thanks for saying so. I shan't pick on you for speaking up with what I guess is a pretty representative view. Gaddafi's forces are being bombed in the dozens or hundreds and his regime overthrown for a number of reported crimes like this, their responsibility for 130 murders of their own defecting soldiers in the al-Baida area. Even though the rebels killed probably all of them in cold blood. And we're handin over control of the country to those blaming-others Islamist, terrorist, war criminals.

"Boring! Bring on th col.'s death, I HATE that slimy little worm! In an inexplicably acute way, considering I've never met him and don't really know what evil he's ordered compared to just been accused of!"

LGR: Watched the video. I'm not convinced of the whole allegation, but it does look like she pours that blood on her own face. I'd rather not go into it any more here, though.

I made one more observation about the body match-up between al-Libya's video and the rebels' video of "another Gaddafi massacre." Again, prisoner #8 is undeniably in both videos. Same sweater, pants, skin, and gangly build. The corpse version has a notable hunched-back. And the prisoner of same description sits with a permanent slouch entirely consistent with such a defect. It's undeniable - at least two of these nine are not shown among the 22 dead (unless with changed clothes - the kid, #4 is one of those maybe spared), but at least this one, and as many as six of the others, are in both videos.

Here's my detailed article on it:
http://12-7-9-11.blogspot.com/2011/03/behind-scenes-of-al-baida-massacre.html

Does it worry you that you are cosying up to a Holocaust denying Jew hater? That is is the reason why nobody else is joining in.

 

[Rolfe]

Does it worry you that you are cosying up to a Holocaust denying Jew hater? That is is the reason why nobody else is joining in.

I think that is a profoundly misguided point of view. Caustic Logic started this thread, presenting his own case, to be judged on its own merits. For whatever reason, LGR chimed in.

Does this latter development make Caustic Logic's points invalid, per se?

LGR seems to change his position on everything and anything more often than he changes his socks. More often than not, he appears merely to be taking the line he thinks most likely to cause general outrage, for the sheer hell of it. If that doesn't work, he changes to a different position in the hope that will do the trick.

I don't really mind one way or the other. But on a personal note, it will be a very sad day indeed when I can't get people online hopping mad by saying "The Illuminati did it" or tell them about the One True Crematorium at Birkenau.

Well, I believe I can get people hopping mad.

This strikes me as a pretty honest confession of deliberate trolling, simply to get a reaction. Which is not against the FM, by the way. It can be quite amusing. Others do it too - I've seen Unloved Rebel playing the same game.

So whether LGR is indeed "a Holocaust-denying Jew hater" or not seems to be an entirely moot point to me. I've also seen him make quite perceptive and constructive points when he isn't in trolling mode.

So in my view, agree or disagree with Caustic Logic on the merits or otherwise of the arguments he's presenting. To dismiss these arguments purely on the grounds that a self-confessed troll whom you believe holds some repellent positions is also participating in the discussion is perverse.

Rolfe.