who perpetrated this Libyan massacre?

Caustic Logic

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Before I nod off, it occurred to me to put this before the forum community. Warning: all subject matter is gruesome, of the type now tolerated by Youtube and Facebook as essential for the cause of freedom in Libya.

First, the rebel version, complete with survivor, who I guess explained the truth of the massacre. I find the camera's pronographic zooming in on the gore disquieting, and the encounter with the thirsty dying martyr strange as well.
http://www.libyafeb17.com/2011/03/g...dafi-forces-for-refusing-to-shoot-protesters/
video page acc. text said:
This is the real movie that demonstrates the falsity of Gaddafi run state tv which accused the rebels of executing these soldiers after muting the audio and filtering sections of it. The fact of the footage is that there was a group of Libyan soldiers who refused to obey orders to shoot their fellow Libyans and they were executed by the regime and its mercenaries. We can see at the end of the footage a dying soldier who is being encouraged to say the testimony of faith. We ask God to accept the martyrs of this nation.
Translation:
Cameraman: These guys have been killed here. You can see the bullet shells strewn all over._Cameraman: He said from AzZawiyah, he said Mu’ammar sent him…_Man: Say there is no god except God_Another man: There is no god except God_Cameraman: Give him water. Alright alright, don’t give him too much, you might kill him.
Click to expand...

Then, the Libyan TV version, complete with a whole alternate beginning.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8POHluG86IU
It's a different shot of the same scene later on, quite a few dead, all with hands tied, heads blown open. without the survivor - his space is just empty in this version. Who are all these guys, capptives and captors, and what is going on between these two videos? Did the state news just edit out the telltale survivor, and fake that intro, or was their purpose leaving that out only to show "the ret of the story?" What is the story? How did they get this extra footage? Etc.?

(Arabic speakers would help in this one)
 
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Bump.

My own understanding is that the captors in the version run on Libyan TV are the racist Islamist type of western rebels, the good guys we're so hot to protect. The captives seem to be genuine military types, at least in part, and some black guys. The captors are haranguing them and brandishing weapons. They're bound and just waiting.

The edited video, without this, leaves the killers unclear. The cameraman and the group he's with are part of the murder team, I think, the dying victim is acting, and the story that the soldiers were killed by their own is something they made up, to make this a false flag massacre to be blamed on Gaddafi.

I don't claim that all the other such incidents were the same, but it's possible at least some of hem are, and that the human rights abuses we're bombing Libya for are at least partly carried out by our heroes, with their stories simply taken as fact, in the name of freedom, panic, and swift action.

Anyone care to disagree?
 
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This was on the TV news here, and it was being presented as the people who had actually carried out the massacre faking up a false victim (who wasn't bound or shot like the others, and was in a position which was empty in another video of the same scene) so as to blame the massacre they had carried out on the other guys.

Which side was which in this narrative, I was never entirely sure. We all like to think the anti-Gadaffi rebels are the good guys, I suppose.

Rolfe.
 
Well, that's a really helpful comment - not. According to the BBC, the interview with the "victim" was probably a fake. Who was faking against whom I'm less clear.

Rolfe.
 
Yep, swooping in for the unfounded ridicule.

The captors don't seem like regime types, the captives do. The before segment clarifies the after, the conclusions shared by the camera crew and the "dying survivor" clarify it in the entirely opposite direction. Right?

But this was on the news in the UK? How was it presented there, Rolfe? You make it sound like the overall impression was ambiguous - how did that impression come about?
 
Regardless, the democratic uprising was certainly lynching people in the streets in the 2nd video.
The 2nd video also shows that democratic uprising beating up an African in the vicinity of the executed men. The living man who says "Mu'ammar sent us" doesn't sound consistant with the alleged scenario of soldiers being executed for refusing to fire on protestors. And while it is not impossible, it is unlikely that the army would execute such soldiers and then retreat to allow them to be found by a civilian mob.

This appears consistent with the opposition first executing people who they believe were acting for the Government - and then trying to construct another narrative on top of it when they realised it looked bad.

However, if the will of people as expressed by the democratic uprising says these people must have their hands tied behind their back and shot as a good leftist (Who Would Wikileaks Summarily Execute?) I would like to add my approval here.
 
Actually good observations, for a holocaust denier. ;)

Not a popular conspiracy theory at the moment, huh?

Got others ... those defecting fighter pilots with the orders to "fire on protesters" - made up to start the no-fly discussion.

... the rebel-flown Gaddafi regime Mig fighter shot down over Beghazi ... staged, intended as a frame-up, but then ... ?? What did happen with that? I should go check.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Why unfounded? you see a conspirace in everything. Just calling it as I see it.
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Everything? Really?

So this episode is just as the rebels presented it then? And the Gaddafi regime faked the alternate intro with CGI, or what?

It's no fluke either. Googling for reported incidents, I found few that gave any details of these mass killings of soldiers who refused to fire. Here's one:
130 Libyan soldiers were executed because they refused to open fire against the protestants, according to the International Federal Human Rights organization.
A video posted online shows the dead bodies of 130 soldiers with their hands tied behind their back. The soldiers were executed at Al-Baida, close to Benghazi.
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The video linked to is the one in discussion.
http://www.xianet.net/2011/02/libya...s-killed-soldiers-and-the-massacre-continues/

The number of people killed in this atrocity is 130. Libyan state TV are the ones who showed the video of who their captors were. The rebel and western-accepted version has all that removed, and some mud-covered non-bound, non-shot guy clearly from a different set of people, in that empty spot near the wall, explaining what "really" happened.

ETA: That's in the one at Facebook. The version I just found does not feature the survivor, nor the pre-slaughter footage.

The last line in that video, as translated above - "don't give him too much (water), you might kill him," almost reads as a sick joke. Sick people, however, might take pains to pan in on the gore of the heads they just exploded with a fascinated "eww!" The Facebook version of the video at least does that.

:eek:
 
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You might wonder if the cameraman was Mohammed Nabbous
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_Nabbous

Although there is absolutely no reason to think it is - there are probably plenty of people running around with video cameras.

Anyways, if you want a conspiracy theory then mine would be that the tall, suave Nabbous who spoke with quick fire brillance, engineering graduate of Oxford university was either a fiction or his death by sniper on roof was a fiction.

Not the slightest bit of proof - just it has a "death of Neda in Iran" feel to it.

In that grimy warren of hallways and former interrogation cells, reclaimed from the regime and plastered floor to ceiling with graffiti slogans and cartoons, his name was intoned gravely, even reverently.
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little grey rabbit said:
You might wonder if the cameraman was Mohammed Nabbous
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_Nabbous

Although there is absolutely no reason to think it is - there are probably plenty of people running around with video cameras.

Anyways, if you want a conspiracy theory then mine would be that the tall, suave Nabbous who spoke with quick fire brillance, engineering graduate of Oxford university was either a fiction or his death by sniper on roof was a fiction.

Not the slightest bit of proof - just it has a "death of Neda in Iran" feel to it.
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Interesting and, some would say, detestable idea. As you say, no evidence, and so on.

The article I cited above mentions support for the rebels' theory from the International Federation for Human Rights (I presume, though the name was mangled.) I checked their website, http://www.fidh.org/-english-
They seem pretty balanced, impartial, and evidence-oriented, and not the slightest bit alarmist or political.
http://www.fidh.org/Libya-Strategy-of-scorched-earth-desire-for
I didn't find anything on there about a report or anything to support the finding they're credited with, but it sounds about right. This is the closest, an oblique reference, from the link above:
New credible information, and sometimes still difficult to verify, regarding the murders of soldiers refusing to follow orders [...] suggest that Gaddafi has effectively decided to implement a mass extermination of those participating in the protests and furthermore, the systematic repression of civilians. The intention announced by Gaddafi in a speech on Feb. 22, to eradicate the “rats” should be taken seriously.
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Also, FIDH cite the plight of back African migrants. The human rights abuses perpetrated against them by rebel forces, as shown to some extent in the video under discussion, later on, and in articles like this), finally makes the word "genocide" almost applicable as a real danger in Libya. This all goes unmentioned in their report, with the real threat being their racist deployment as mercenaries and "Human shields" in Gaddafi's army.
http://www.fidh.org/Colonel-Qaddhafi-forces-enrollment-of-African
 
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Interesting and detestable ideas are my specialty.

I will be interested if there is a big fuss made for the funeral of the matyr. Although I daresay there are a few martyrs in Benghazi - and a few in Tripoli too for that matter.
 
BTW, if you look at the second link again - what would be obvious if one understood arabic - the beginning of the clip is a number of people being harangued. These people are the ones who end up being shot. And the person who asks for water in the feb17.com version and says Gadaffi sent them appears to be just a stooge or actor.

Or as C.S Lewis put it in "That Hideous Strength"

“No Emperor ...” began Merlin, and then his voice died away. Presently he said, “This is a cold age in which I have awaked. If all this west part of the world is apostate, might it be lawful, in our great need, to look farther ... beyond Christendom? Should we not find some even among the heathen who are not wholly corrupt? There were tales in my day of some such: men who knew not the articles of our most holy Faith but who worshipped God as they could and acknowledged the Law of Nature. Sir, I believe it
would be lawful to seek help even there—beyond Byzantium. I know not where .. Babylon, Arabia, or Cathay.”
Ransom shook his head. “The poison was brewed in these West lands, but it has spat itself everywhere by now. However far you went you would find the machines, the crowded cities, the empty thrones, the false writings: men maddened with false promises and soured with true miseries, cut off from Earth their mother and from the Father in Heaven. The shadow of one dark wing is over all Tellus.”
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LOL!

No.

I'm finally looking for all the news stories that have surfaced about this. Not to read all, just scanning. This is Wikipedia's source for the IFHR claim of the al-Baida massacre. http://www.news24.com/Africa/News/Libya-130-soldiers-executed-20110223
Paris - At least 640 people have been killed in Libya in protests against the regime of Muammar Gaddafi since they started last week, the International Federation for Human Rights (IFHR) said on Wednesday.

The figure is more than double the official Libyan government toll of 300 dead, and includes 275 dead in Tripoli and 230 dead in the protest epicentre in the eastern city of Benghazi, the IFHR's Souhayr Belhassen told AFP.

The Benghazi toll includes "130 soldiers who were executed by their officers in Benghazi for refusing to fire on crowds" of protesters, she said.
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So we can see the truth of this incident is of great significance to the human rights aspect of this war. Gaddafi conceded to I believe all Tripoli deaths, but only a handfull in the Benghazi area where the government swore it hadn't attacked at all (I think?).

We have reason to believe now that 130 of these reported 230 lives were taken by rebel hands. Any comment?
 
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