Who Killed the EV-1?

[dropzone]

The EV-1 was only leased, not purchased, because it was experimental. Yes, the leasers were beta-testers paying for the privilege. The lease thing also shows how the experiment was closed-ended, as the lease cost was much lower than what an actual, profit implied, purchase price would be, the lease cost being there only to sort out the riff-raff. GM made no bones about it being experimental. CTers, however, do not.

 

[dropzone]

Note: I live in an area where the winter temperatures regularly dip to the 0F or lower point. I need my car to get me to work, which most recently was 24 miles one way. A battery that loses capacity as it cools from its optimal, longest range, 80F, is very likely to strand me far from home in the dead of winter. This I don't need. A gas/electric hybrid makes some sense, though when running on gas alone they are even more underpowered than my Datsun 510 wagon with an automatic.

Note: Datsun 510 fans, please note the "with an automatic." A Borg-Warner automatic. The mofo could scarcely get out of its own way.

 

[Arus808]

A gas/electric hybrid makes some sense, though when running on gas alone they are even more underpowered than my Datsun 510 wagon with an automatic.

Note: Datsun 510 fans, please note the "with an automatic." A Borg-Warner automatic. The mofo could scarcely get out of its own way.

that is also a concern with these electric cars; extreme heat and extreme cold. how would these cars function?


By the way, I learned to drive manual on a Datsun B210 when I was 11 years old. Our next car was a Datsun Maxima hatch and then a Datsun Maxima Station Wagon. We also owned a Datsun 240 that was apple Green. My family was a huge Datsun (pre Nissan) ownership till I "broke" off and went the way of Honda. ^_^

 

[JoeyDonuts]

A gas/electric hybrid makes some sense, though when running on gas alone they are even more underpowered than my Datsun 510 wagon with an automatic.

I understand that one feature of the Chevy Volt's IC engine is to heat the battery compartment to acceptable operating temperature in cold weather conditions. I know over-heat conditions can degrade battery performance as well. Not sure how they planned to address that.

 

[Eddie Dane]

I caught a documentary on electric cars on German TV yesterday.

They had a guy from MIT on who'd greatly improved battery technology.
He couldn't sell his greatly improved battery design to the car industry, they showed no interest. He's doing good business with a power tool manufacturer (Bosch?), who jumped right on it.

The documentary claimed that car manufacturers are just not that happy about building cars with "outside" technology, because they have spend 100 years refining their internal combustion technology. Their engines are full of patents they own themselves, rather than an outside party.

I have no idea, just repeating what I heard.

 

[Cuddles]

Hydrogen comes from water via electrolysis as an alternative to taking it from methane? Yes I know presently it's way too expensive to do that and extracting it from other fossil fuels is the preferred method. It doesn't *have* to come from fossil fuel though.

And the electricity to split the water comes from...

Hydrogen fuel cells are not an alternative to electric cars, they are simply a different kind of battery for them. Obviously our electricity doesn't have to come from fossil fuels, but the fact is that at the moment it does. As long as that's true, changing to electric cars will make very little difference. And for all the fuss politicians like to make about carbon, there are really no serious plans to significantly increase the proportion of renewables and nuclear for our current power needs, let alone by the amount required to provide for all our transport as well.

It's going to take a huge scientific jump forwards in our collective understanding to produce non-fossil fuel powered cars that are comparable or better than present day cars.

This may be an important point to think about. Do we really need them to be comparable or better than present day cars? Range is often pointed out as one of the major issues but, as has already been noted in this thread, most journeys don't actually need a huge range. As for performance, there's no need for cars to go at 100mph and accelerate to 60 in a few seconds. Sure it can be fun, but if it's a choice between something a little less powerful and not having a car at all, I know which I'd choose.

I think a big part of the problem with electric cars is that people reject them as not being as good as modern cars, rather than just considering whether they're good enough.

Note: I live in an area where the winter temperatures regularly dip to the 0F or lower point. I need my car to get me to work, which most recently was 24 miles one way. A battery that loses capacity as it cools from its optimal, longest range, 80F, is very likely to strand me far from home in the dead of winter.

This is one area where fuel cells have a big advantage over batteries, and even over internal combustion. There is no problem with capacity reducing, as with batteries, and no chance of the fuel freezing, as with petrol and diesel. The efficiency will be lower at lower temperatures, but since the cell will be self-heating, and will often have a small external heater anyway, that's more of a minor inconvenience than a major problem.

 

[TjW]

This may be an important point to think about. Do we really need them to be comparable or better than present day cars?

Only if you want to sell them.
Electric cars will do ninety percent of what people do with cars.
They cost more.
A more expensive product with less utility is a tough sell.

 

[Ambrosia]

Hydrogen fuel cells are not an alternative to electric cars, they are simply a different kind of battery for them.

In which case I have misunderstood hydrogen fuelled cars.

This may be an important point to think about. Do we really need them to be comparable or better than present day cars?

I think a big part of the problem with electric cars is that people reject them as not being as good as modern cars, rather than just considering whether they're good enough.

Barring some major motivational change in customers yes. People grow accustomed to a certain lifestyle and will fight tooth and nail not to return to the old lifestyle.

Until oil is so costly that combustion engines are out of reach for the consumer they will never accept a n other powered car that is 'inferior' to what they are used to. Never mind it being perfectly adequate for what they actually need.

Most people don't need a dual core PC with 4GB RAM, or a 40" Plasma 1080 TV or 8Mb broadband.

You can't sell Pentium desktops with 32MB RAM, 21" CRT TVs, or dialup internet access these days despite all of the above being perfectly adequate for most peoples use.

Speed and size are ingrained into our society as being good things.

 

[WildCat]

But if I had the option to buy a vehicle I could plug in every night and drive to and from work every day? Hell yes, I'd take it.

Even if that car cost $80,000? Which is, IIRC, what it cost GM to make them.

 

[JoeyDonuts]

Even if that car cost $80,000? Which is, IIRC, what it cost GM to make them.

Yeesh. Well, a solution that bankrupts the company producing it isn't going to be a solution for very long. I guess in my enthusiasm about never going to a filling station again, I forgot about economic equilibrium.

 

[LONGTABBER PE]

Only if you want to sell them.
Electric cars will do ninety percent of what people do with cars.
They cost more.
A more expensive product with less utility is a tough sell.

Its even more than that- its about the entire infrastructure.

If these vehicles were out there in substantial numbers- there would have to be Chilton manuals, parts at every parts house and service outlets like GoodYear, Precision Tune and such trained to service them as well as the home mechanic.

The majority of people avoid dealers because of price and wait. ( except for warranty work, dealers are usually the most expensive place to go and you always have to leave it for days) Also dealers dont have enough bays to keep a fleet going.

Now you are talking literally BILLIONS of dollars to build a support system for these vehicles.

Then theres the service cost. ( these vehicles arent going to be maintenance/repair free- nothing made by man is)

The batteries alone cost more than many decent used cars. Theres little to be done to reduce that due to the way these batteries work. Cells would probably be even worse.

If they cannot bring the maintenance costs down as well- the public wont accept it.