White Nationalists March in Poland

[caveman1917]

And you know better

Of course I do. It's not that hard to know better than neo-nazis, you should try it once.

Do you think they don't notice that Western Europe is so much nicer and more prosperous than Eastern Europe?

It is now, after the fall of the Warsaw pact. Before that it was the other way around. Which you could easily determine by noticing that out of the groups which resettled from East Germany to West Germany almost all chose to return just a few years later.

the decades long oppression of Poland

Only exists in your head. The Polish aristocracy was oppressed, as well as the more brutal members of the military of the previous regime and various fascist groups, which can only be applauded.

can be mocked

Just like white people complaining about being oppressed by black people because they're not allowed to lynch them anymore can be mocked.

I am quite admiring of socialists who implement socialism without violence, coersion, or stealing. The other kind are bitter, angry people who are quite prone to killing people in large numbers. The former generally take extreme measures to avoid killing people.

Oh please. You're doing nothing but whine about how the rulers and collaborators of a brutal military dictatorship (the Polish second republic) ended up being "oppressed" after the communists took over. How dare the communists free the servants of the ruling aristocracy, those commies are just soooo oppressive! It makes your political position quite clear.

 

[Oystein]

...

I guess that's what I was getting at. There are quite a few people in Europe who are not happy with the high rates of immigration, and I think some of them have good reasons.

None of them can be in Poland, or Hungary or Slovakia, for there is practically zero immigration. Lots of emmigration, though.

In Germany, there is a strong negative correlation between local percentage of immigrants on one hand, and racist crime or votes for neonazi parties on the other: the more immigrants people actually interact with, have personal experiences with, the LESS likely they are to support right-wing nonsense.

 

[Mycroft]

Of course I do. It's not that hard to know better than neo-nazis, you should try it once.

Being smarter than neo-Nazis is a very low bar. An even lower bar is being smarter than an anarcho-communist.

I think if you want to tell them communism is their solution that you will need very compelling evidence. They have literally generations of experience with that and it's left

It is now, after the fall of the Warsaw pact. Before that it was the other way around.

You're claiming that life in Soviet Poland was better than, say life in Western Germany at the same period?

Let's see your evidence.

Which you could easily determine by noticing that out of the groups which resettled from East Germany to West Germany almost all chose to return just a few years later.

Very confused thinking on your part. That they wanted to leave in the first place is evidence that things were not better before, that they wanted to return a few years later is evidence that things had improved.

What changed? Where did these improvements come from?

Only exists in your head. The Polish aristocracy was oppressed, as well as the more brutal members of the military of the previous regime and various fascist groups, which can only be applauded.

I suppose in your mind this covers the Katyn massacre, the internment of the Polish soldiers, the rigged elections, the NKVD prissoner massacre, the mass deportations, the arrests of politicians, scientist, civil servants, clergy and anyone who could be called "intelligentsia". In your mind they all "had it comming"?

Just like white people complaining about being oppressed by black people because they're not allowed to lynch them anymore can be mocked.

Is equality for black people the same as Soviet imperialism? I don't think so. One is elevating a minority to the same privileged class as the majority, the other is brutal murder, theft and oppression.

Oh please. You're doing nothing but whine about how the rulers and collaborators of a brutal military dictatorship (the Polish second republic) ended up being "oppressed" after the communists took over. How dare the communists free the servants of the ruling aristocracy, those commies are just soooo oppressive! It makes your political position quite clear.

That was so awful that the Soviet Union was justified in collaborating with the Nazis to destroy it?

I can name lots and lots of examples of Soviet oppression of the Polish people after the soviets took over, but it's much harder to find examples of how the Polish were oppressed by their own government before. Can you name some?

 

[caveman1917]

You're claiming that life in Soviet Poland was better than, say life in Western Germany at the same period?

Let's see your evidence.

I thought you had "generations of experience" to listen to?

Very confused thinking on your part. That they wanted to leave in the first place is evidence that things were not better before, that they wanted to return a few years later is evidence that things had improved.

No, that they wanted to leave is evidence that they believed in an advertised socio-economic system. That they wanted to return a few years later is evidence that their experience with the reality of said socio-economic system enabled them to finally understand that it only works as advertised when you're part of the few aristocrats rather than the many servants.

What changed?

They stopped being total morons.

Where did these improvements come from?

Their confrontation with the actual reality of said socio-economic system rather than merely its propaganda.

Is equality for black people the same as Soviet imperialism?

Intriguingly, yes. Racial equality is one of the many achievements of the USSR.

I can name lots and lots of examples of Soviet oppression of the Polish people after the soviets took over

Bet you 10$ you can't name a single one. Or at least not a single one where the oppression is based on being a member of the "Polish people" as such, rather than just happenstance. For example expropriating a Polish wealthy landowner and redistributing the land is not oppression of the "Polish people" as such, given that the recipients of the land are equally Polish. Same for, say, expropriating large estates to house the homeless.

but it's much harder to find examples of how the Polish were oppressed by their own government before. Can you name some?

If you close your eyes really hard it's totally possible to miss that military dictatorship rigging elections, imprisoning political opponents - especially communists, and brutally suppressing dissent.

 

[Mycroft]

I thought you had "generations of experience" to listen to?

An opinion poll as evidence, how adorable!

No, that they wanted to leave is evidence that they believed in an advertised socio-economic system. That they wanted to return a few years later is evidence that their experience with the reality of said socio-economic system enabled them to finally understand that it only works as advertised when you're part of the few aristocrats rather than the many servants.

Germany is still working to bring it's Eastern population up to parity.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2009/11/underestimating-east-germany/307776/

They had the advantage of being grafted onto one of the most powerful economies in Europe. Other former Soviet satellite nations haven’t had that advantage and are still struggling.

Their confrontation with the actual reality of said socio-economic system rather than merely its propaganda.

They believed capitalism was magical and wealth would come without work. Of course they were disappointed. It didn’t help that the transition was abrupt and mismanaged.

Intriguingly, yes. Racial equality is one of the many achievements of the USSR.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Russia#Racism_by_targeted_group

Bet you 10$ you can't name a single one. Or at least not a single one where the oppression is based on being a member of the "Polish people" as such, rather than just happenstance. For example expropriating a Polish wealthy landowner and redistributing the land is not oppression of the "Polish people" as such, given that the recipients of the land are equally Polish. Same for, say, expropriating large estates to house the homeless.

I already did that when I named the Katyn massacre, the internment of Polish soldiers, the rigged elections, the NKVD prisoner massacre and mass deportations. I suppose I could go on, that’s depressing research.

Expropriating land and taking it for the state is not the equivalent redistributing to the people, although I can see how it may seem like it in your bizarre anarcho-communist worldview.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

Yes, Russia's production dwarfed Germany's, as it should have. Russia had more than double the population and the access to resources, yet when Germany invaded they went deep and slaughtered Russians by the millions even while fighting another war on its other front. Yes, the Russians repelled them eventually, but at a staggering cost in humans lives.

That was literally the most massive invasion in history, so it's hard to say whether Russia was "hit harder" than it should have been. ANY invading force has a tremendous advantage until they begin to stretch their supply lines. The Germans had local numerical superiority up to Moscow or so, yet took massive losses themselves. Of course the crippled officer corps hurt (but properly contextualized it's a bit more complex than "stalin paranoid" - military intervention in politics was a partially justified fear), but much of it was a matter of the limited responses an invaded nation can muster at first.

The whole operation was an insane suicide mission that no remotely rational person should have ever considered. Those are remarkably hard to defend oneself against. The trajectory followed by Russia is not really that unique - massive setbacks at first, followed by re-organisation and effective resistance, followed by victory. It's telling that Stalin was confident enough about Moscow to not have a detailed escape plan.

I'm not sure Communism is relevant. The Soviet administration was insanely efficient at times, and some politically appointed military comissars like Kruschev and Beria ended up being huge boons.

 

[caveman1917]

An opinion poll as evidence, how adorable!

Amusing to see how fast you backpedal from your "generations of experience", which supposedly explains nazis' anti-communism, once you realize that those generations say the exact opposite of what you want them to say.

Have you ever considered rather changing your worldview in accordance with actual data and evidence? It might help with that tenuous grasp on reality you seem to have.

They believed capitalism was magical and wealth would come without work.

Like our earlier Amelia's family? Obviously the aristocracy and wealthy land and factory owners were doing all the work, and their servants were slacking lazy asses - that follows directly from observing that the former have the wealth and not the latter.

The only people who actually believe capitalism is a meritocracy are either total morons or bourgeoisie who feel the need to stroke their own ego.

Of course they were disappointed. It didn’t help that the transition was abrupt and mismanaged.

It wasn't abrupt or mismanaged. Quite the opposite, it could easily take a couple of years for people in East Germany to be included in the groups which were to resettle in West Germany. One constant throughout the cold war though is that most of the people in those groups chose to return to East Germany just a few years later.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Russia#Racism_by_targeted_group

Thank you for proving my point. Yes, after the "communist oppression" of nationalists and fascists ended they regained the freedom to harass and attack minorities, including full-blown pogroms such as at Rostock.

I already did that when I named the Katyn massacre, the internment of Polish soldiers, the rigged elections, the NKVD prisoner massacre and mass deportations. I suppose I could go on, that’s depressing research.

Still misrepresenting those as oppression against the "Polish people"? I suppose it suits your nationalist propaganda to do so. Do you also think denazification was oppression of the "Deutsche Volk"?

Expropriating land and taking it for the state is not the equivalent redistributing to the people, although I can see how it may seem like it in your bizarre anarcho-communist worldview.

Meh. If you expropriate a wealthy landowner and then house the homeless in the estates and call it a "state facility against homelessness" then sure, it might have been expropriated by the state as opposed to by the people. However it would be no less a misrepresentation to call that "oppression of the Polish people" given that those homeless are equally Polish - and a lot more of them at that.

 

[sir drinks-a-lot]

None of them can be in Poland, or Hungary or Slovakia, for there is practically zero immigration. Lots of emmigration, though.

This is a non-sequitur. They can still have opinions on the immigration rates of the rest of Europe, and they can still have good reasons for not wanting high immigration into their own countries. Heck, I'm an American, and I think the immigration policies in parts of Europe are going to be disastrous, if they haven't been already.

In Germany, there is a strong negative correlation between local percentage of immigrants on one hand, and racist crime or votes for neonazi parties on the other: the more immigrants people actually interact with, have personal experiences with, the LESS likely they are to support right-wing nonsense.

Cite? Your wording seems to have a lot of wiggle room. How do you define "right-wing nonsense"? Anything other than fully open borders, or...?

 

[uke2se]

That was literally the most massive invasion in history, so it's hard to say whether Russia was "hit harder" than it should have been. ANY invading force has a tremendous advantage until they begin to stretch their supply lines. The Germans had local numerical superiority up to Moscow or so, yet took massive losses themselves. Of course the crippled officer corps hurt (but properly contextualized it's a bit more complex than "stalin paranoid" - military intervention in politics was a partially justified fear), but much of it was a matter of the limited responses an invaded nation can muster at first.

The whole operation was an insane suicide mission that no remotely rational person should have ever considered. Those are remarkably hard to defend oneself against. The trajectory followed by Russia is not really that unique - massive setbacks at first, followed by re-organisation and effective resistance, followed by victory. It's telling that Stalin was confident enough about Moscow to not have a detailed escape plan.

I'm not sure Communism is relevant. The Soviet administration was insanely efficient at times, and some politically appointed military comissars like Kruschev and Beria ended up being huge boons.

Good analysis. For another example, see the Korean war.

 

[Civet]

Didn't want to start a new thread, but Polish nationalism is in the news again. They're facing EU sanctions because of some changes to their judiciary. Be interesting to see where this goes.

 

[dann]

An important aspect of the current rise in Polish nationalism is the role played by Donald Trump. This article is in German, and I don't know how well Google translate will handle it: Trump als Chance (junge Welt, Oct. 13, 2017). junge Welt is a left-wing newspaper.

 

[Civet]

I'm starting to develop a mild interest in Polish politics. They're currently having a bit of a row with Israel over some laws related to how people are allowed to discuss the Holocaust.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-42848842

 

[Hlafordlaes]

Gosh, why bother with argument if all you need do is legislate the truth? Real time-saver.

 

[ddt]

I'm starting to develop a mild interest in Polish politics. They're currently having a bit of a row with Israel over some laws related to how people are allowed to discuss the Holocaust.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-42848842

Geesh, talk about sensitive. Sure, the phrase "Polish death camp" is unfortunate, but I'm not aware of anyone who uses it to imply that they were set up and/or operated by Poles. It is, however, a matter of historical record that they were located in Poland. Is the phrase "death camp on Polish territory" also verboten according to the new law?

Israeli officials are opposed to the proposed law, suggesting it will limit discussion of Polish involvement in the Holocaust.

"This is a shameful disregard of the truth," said Israel's Education and Diaspora Affairs Minister Naftali Bennett.

"It is a historic fact that many Poles aided in the murder of Jews, handed them in, abused them, and even killed Jews during and after the Holocaust."

It is also historic fact that many Poles put their lives on the line to hide and protect their Jewish neighbours. But leave it to Netanyahu and his cronies to go around and accuse anyone of antisemitism.

 

[Vixen]

Geesh, talk about sensitive. Sure, the phrase "Polish death camp" is unfortunate, but I'm not aware of anyone who uses it to imply that they were set up and/or operated by Poles. It is, however, a matter of historical record that they were located in Poland. Is the phrase "death camp on Polish territory" also verboten according to the new law?

It is also historic fact that many Poles put their lives on the line to hide and protect their Jewish neighbours. But leave it to Netanyahu and his cronies to go around and accuse anyone of antisemitism.

I don't think that is the point of the motion to ban the use of the phrase 'Polish Death Camps', but rather refer to 'Nazi Death Camps'. Poles are sensitive to the fact, they feel victims of the Nazis themselves. It's an identity thing.

Many Jews in Israel - or at least the ones I encountered in Jerusalem - adorned themselves sartorically in C16 Warsaw clothing, some with exaggeratedly huge cossack-style hats. Half the people in my plane flying to Tel Aviv were dressed in a more toned down 'Stamford Hill' way, long sidelocks and rabbi hats, and likewise on my recent flight to Gdansk. (Poland.)

It's to do with saying, hey, we are also the victims of Nazi Germany, we want to be loved, we identify strongly with our Polish heritage, Jew and Pole, alike. It's to do with self-esteem.

So yes, the proposal by Netanyahu makes sense to me.

 

[Mycroft]

...But leave it to Netanyahu and his cronies to go around and accuse anyone of antisemitism.

Where is that happening?

 

[Hlafordlaes]

Where is that happening?

I seem to recall Bibi doing a war dance around Obama with some GOP buddies over the Iran nuke question, which for people like this corrupt little man, can and should only be resolved using extreme military measures. I believe Obama was smeared from day one of his administration simply because he disagreed with, gosh, Israel's illegal settlements, and therefore could, and should, be used as an easy - and btw, subtly racist - foil.

Like Trump, Bibi is fast undoing all things that tether the country to a sober, responsible role in the world, and in both cases, making a complete mockery of any claims to "democratic values" by either nation. Both are dedicated to a single-state, religiously authoritarian solution in Israel and Palestine, and their followers are all too quick to paint others with the antisemitic brush.

But hey, nice benchmark. The people of "Never Again," marching arm in arm now with those who link arms with Nazis. Kool-aid has never been cooler.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I don't think that is the point of the motion to ban the use of the phrase 'Polish Death Camps', but rather refer to 'Nazi Death Camps'. Poles are sensitive to the fact, they feel victims of the Nazis themselves. It's an identity thing.

Those who of course do not identify with the Nazis, unlike the 60K marching who are fine with being seen as nazis.

 

[carlvs]

<snip>

It is also historic fact that many Poles put their lives on the line to hide and protect their Jewish neighbours. But leave it to Netanyahu and his cronies to go around and accuse anyone of antisemitism.

However, the story is a bit more complicated, as this article states:

... the Nazis also “drew upon some Polish agencies, such as Polish police forces and railroad personnel, in the guarding of ghettos and the deportation of Jews to the killing centers.” Individual Poles, the museum writes, “often helped in the identification, denunciation, and hunting down of Jews in hiding, often profiting from the associated blackmail, and actively participated in the plunder of Jewish property.”

A notorious example of Polish persecution of Jews is the 1941 massacre at Jedwabne, during which Polish villagers reportedly herded hundreds of Jewish women and children in a barn and set it on fire, burning the victims alive. (Though historians maintain that locals’ involvement in the massacre was a matter of historical record, some Poles have denied Polish complicity)...

 

[Mycroft]

I seem to recall Bibi doing a war dance around Obama with some GOP buddies over the Iran nuke question, which for people like this corrupt little man, can and should only be resolved using extreme military measures. I believe Obama was smeared from day one of his administration simply because he disagreed with, gosh, Israel's illegal settlements, and therefore could, and should, be used as an easy - and btw, subtly racist - foil.

Obama was criticized for not supporting Israel as strongly as previous administrations, but I don't recall anyone, certainly not Netenyahu, calling him an anti-Semite over it. I can't tell from reading that paragraph, are you claiming he did?

But hey, nice benchmark. The people of "Never Again," marching arm in arm now with those who link arms with Nazis. Kool-aid has never been cooler.

Where do you see this happening?