White Nationalists March in Poland

[Klimax]

It was the irony of polish nazis that amused me.

That never cease to amaze and amuse here too. Bonus points for having nationalistic patry lead by half-Japanese...

 

[Mycroft]

No that isn't it. The resurgence of fascism in Poland post-dates the introduction of capitalism, so it's more likely that the thing feeding the nationalist fascist ideals is seeing what they suffer right now under capitalism as hardships imposed by "foreigners".

The march itself attracted a mix of radical right-wing politicians from Europe as well as Polish far-right activists. Fliers distributed promoting the march read in Polish, “Black Column on the Independence March for blood and nation, against Marxism and liberalism.” One of the first speakers was Roberto Fiore, leader of the openly fascist Italian political party Forza Nuova.

Anti-Muslim sentiment was prevalent throughout the event, with many banners depicting the star and crescent symbol with a red line through it. Other anti-Muslim banners read, “Islam = terror,” and another large banner depicted Islam and a refugee who had a bomb strapped to his stomach as Trojan horses.

https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch...timent-prevail-polands-independence-day-march

I'll step out on a limb and suggest the anti-communist fliers and banners suggest it isn't capitalism they're upset with. Looks like a combination of Muslim immigration and anti-communism.

But hey, if you have evidence of your own, let's see it.

 

[caveman1917]

It was the irony of polish nazis that amused me.

Except that there is no irony. Eastern European nazis have never seen themselves as untermenschen, that was the German nazis, and even then the situation's a tad more complicated than that. The irony is only there because your liberal-propagandist view of history requires you to reduce the political phenomenon of nazism to "members of the German NSDAP". But if you're so married to that particular view of history then I could easily tell you things that would Totally Blow Your Mind^TM such as that a lot of the grunt work for the Holocaust was done by...wait for it...Slavic Eastern European nazis.

 

[quadraginta]

that makes no sense, who considers Slavs white? Next people will claim Italians are white.

And then who knows where it could go.

Spanish?

 

[caveman1917]

https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch...timent-prevail-polands-independence-day-march

I'll step out on a limb and suggest the anti-communist fliers and banners suggest it isn't capitalism they're upset with. Looks like a combination of Muslim immigration and anti-communism.

Breaking News! Far-right groups spread leaflets espousing far-right political positions!

But hey, if you have evidence of your own, let's see it.

You seriously want to argue that they adopt anti-communism because of their history under it? Fine, can you show us on the doll where Hitler and the rest of the NSDAP were hurt by those awful, evil communists? It was probably in their private parts, seeing as it was so traumatizing that they even ended up explicitly calling their alliance the Anti-Comintern.

Yet again we find your amusing anti-communism landing you straight into making silly excuses for nazis.

 

[Mycroft]

Breaking News! Far-right groups spread leaflets espousing far-right political positions!

Nobody claimed it's surprising, only that it goes against your suggestion that it's anti-capitalism that motivates them.

You seriously want to argue that they adopt anti-communism because of their history under it?

Their parents and grandparents do have first hand experience and they do have access to all of western Europe for contrast.

, can you show us on the doll where Hitler and the rest of the NSDAP were hurt by those awful, evil communists? It was probably in their private parts, seeing as it was so traumatizing that they even ended up explicitly calling their alliance the Anti-Comintern.

Historically, wasn't it was the other way around? Russia lost some eleven million soldiers and God only knows how many civilians confronting the NSDAP? Furthermore, when they were able to put up a fight, it was largely aided by US lend/lease programs.

But that's a weird shift in topic. Your graphic and brutal imagery should be applied to the Polish oppression suffered under Soviet rule.

Yet again we find your amusing anti-communism landing you straight into making silly excuses for nazis.

I'm not anti-communist, I'm against communism being applied by force. If you and a bunch of like minded people want to pool your resources and start a commune somewhere and practice communism together, that's wonderful. I wish you all the best. If it works out I may even join you.

It's when you want to steal someone else's stuff and force them to practice communism with you that I have a problem.



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[TubbaBlubba]

Furthermore, when they were able to put up a fight, it was largely aided by US lend/lease programs.

That's a bit of a mythical exaggeration. Lend-lease was a big help in the later phases of the war, but Russia's own production always dwarfed Germany's. Already by the Battle of Moscow, the tide had turned against the Germans, who had massively underestimated the Russian morale, manpower reserves and the administrative capabilities of the Soviet government. They were absolutely shocked when well over a million men turned up as if from nowhere.

Barbarossa was never going to succeed - there was no way to destroy the Russian army and government without thinning the German front too much.

 

[ponderingturtle]

That's a bit of a mythical exaggeration. Lend-lease was a big help in the later phases of the war, but Russia's own production always dwarfed Germany's. Already by the Battle of Moscow, the tide had turned against the Germans, who had massively underestimated the Russian morale, manpower reserves and the administrative capabilities of the Soviet government. They were absolutely shocked when well over a million men turned up as if from nowhere.

Barbarossa was never going to succeed - there was no way to destroy the Russian army and government without thinning the German front too much.

Possibly if they were say less brutal than Stalin. The germans were not exactly hated when they started to move in, but their ideology didn't exactly lend themselves to liberating the russian people

 

[TubbaBlubba]

Possibly if they were say less brutal than Stalin. The germans were not exactly hated when they started to move in, but their ideology didn't exactly lend themselves to liberating the russian people

The brutality was a logistical necessity to keep the army fed though.

 

[caveman1917]

Nobody claimed it's surprising, only that it goes against your suggestion that it's anti-capitalism that motivates them.

Of course they're not motivated by anti-capitalism, they're motivated by interpreting the hardships they face now (under capitalism) as imposed by immigrants and leftists.

But that's a weird shift in topic.

There is no shift in topic, you claimed that nazi anti-communism is a result of the oppression they faced under Soviet rule. A ridiculous position you've still failed to back up, so do show us where Hitler and the rest of the NSDAP were oppressed by those awful, evil communists. Were they oppressed by the Bavarian SSR or something?

Your graphic and brutal imagery should be applied to the Polish oppression suffered under Soviet rule.

Commies took away, snif, their castles and, snif snif, their servants! And they weren't even allowed to go on pogroms against Jews and other minorities anymore, or send leftists to concentration camps, that's just so oppressive! Just imagine if, like, in the US people wouldn't be allowed to lynch ******* or imprison leftists anymore, it would be so oppressive!

But don't worry Mycroft, you can help.

I'm not anti-communist

Of course you are.

 

[caveman1917]

Possibly if they were say less brutal than Stalin. The germans were not exactly hated when they started to move in, but their ideology didn't exactly lend themselves to liberating the russian people

The Russian SSR would probably be the place the nazis were hated the most when they occupied it, in the sense of the least collaborators and the most partisans. Mostly true for the USSR in general as opposed to the rest of Europe, although the western part of the Ukrainian SSR did have high collaboration rates.

 

[caveman1917]

The brutality was a logistical necessity to keep the army fed though.

They fed their army on Jews, communists, etc? I knew the Nazis were brutal, but I didn't know they were cannibals.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

They fed their army on Jews, communists, etc? I knew the Nazis were brutal, but I didn't know they were cannibals.

Don't be wilfully obtuse. Obviously not the mass killings. What I'm saying is, the army relied on being able to plunder the land to keep itself fed. There's no way the Germans could have invaded that was "not brutal" enough to get Russians on their side.

 

[sir drinks-a-lot]

How White Nationally were these White Nationalists?

 

[Civet]

How White Nationally were these White Nationalists?

From the videos they looked an unimpressive lot. I suspect some of them may have been merely White Locally. Perhaps even just White Around the House. In all seriousness, though, some of the BBC coverage indicated that not all of the participants were there to promote racism or xenophobia. A large but impossible to quantify number seem to have been just normal Polish patriots celebrating the holiday.

 

[sir drinks-a-lot]

From the videos they looked an unimpressive lot.

Ah! I missed the videos.

I suspect some of them may have been merely White Locally. Perhaps even just White Around the House.

Hah! That reminds me of the time when David Letterman had then President Obama on the show and asked him "how long have you been a black man?"

In all seriousness, though, some of the BBC coverage indicated that not all of the participants were there to promote racism or xenophobia. A large but impossible to quantify number seem to have been just normal Polish patriots celebrating the holiday.

I guess that's what I was getting at. There are quite a few people in Europe who are not happy with the high rates of immigration, and I think some of them have good reasons.

 

[Civet]

I guess that's what I was getting at. There are quite a few people in Europe who are not happy with the high rates of immigration, and I think some of them have good reasons.

Oh, absolutely. My European contacts skew heavily western Europe so I don't know anywhere near as much about the eastern nations, but there definitely seem to be loads of folks with concerns about cultural integration, economic issues and crime concerns who aren't at all what I'd recognize as bigots in the white supremacist sense. Not all that different from what I see in immigration debates here in the US, really.

 

[Mycroft]

That's a bit of a mythical exaggeration. Lend-lease was a big help in the later phases of the war, but Russia's own production always dwarfed Germany's. Already by the Battle of Moscow, the tide had turned against the Germans, who had massively underestimated the Russian morale, manpower reserves and the administrative capabilities of the Soviet government. They were absolutely shocked when well over a million men turned up as if from nowhere.

Barbarossa was never going to succeed - there was no way to destroy the Russian army and government without thinning the German front too much.

Arguing about WWII is off topic, I only wanted to remind Caveman1917, who wants to claim communism beats fascism as though it's a rock/paper/scissors truism, that the reality is the communists took a hard beating at the hands of the Nazis.

Yes, Russia's production dwarfed Germany's, as it should have. Russia had more than double the population and the access to resources, yet when Germany invaded they went deep and slaughtered Russians by the millions even while fighting another war on its other front. Yes, the Russians repelled them eventually, but at a staggering cost in humans lives.

 

[Mycroft]

Of course they're not motivated by anti-capitalism, they're motivated by interpreting the hardships they face now (under capitalism) as imposed by immigrants and leftists.

And you know better and want to correct them, telling them all their problems are caused by capitalism and communism is their solution.

Do you think they don't notice that Western Europe is so much nicer and more prosperous than Eastern Europe?

There is no shift in topic, you claimed that nazi anti-communism is a result of the oppression they faced under Soviet rule.

No, I did not claim that. I suppose suggesting you go back and read it again would be too hard for you?

A ridiculous position you've still failed to back up, so do show us where Hitler and the rest of the NSDAP were oppressed by those awful, evil communists. Were they oppressed by the Bavarian SSR or something?

You seem to be referencing a discussion that doesn't involve me?

Commies took away, snif, their castles and, snif snif, their servants! <snip!>

If I'm understanding your meme correctly, the decades long oppression of Poland can be mocked because at least one of the victims was wealthy, and wealthy people are to be dehumanized, along with all the non-wealthy people who suffered too?

Of course you are.

I am quite admiring of socialists who implement socialism without violence, coersion, or stealing. The other kind are bitter, angry people who are quite prone to killing people in large numbers. The former generally take extreme measures to avoid killing people.

 

[Mycroft]

From the videos they looked an unimpressive lot. I suspect some of them may have been merely White Locally. Perhaps even just White Around the House. In all seriousness, though, some of the BBC coverage indicated that not all of the participants were there to promote racism or xenophobia. A large but impossible to quantify number seem to have been just normal Polish patriots celebrating the holiday.

That's the impression I get too.

Just like in Ukraine, there are real racist elements, but there are also others who want to exaggerate to unrealistic proportions.