When it comes to math ...

[Modified]

When I worked retail, this was usually a sure sign to me of which of my fellow cashiers would last, and which wouldn't: how easily they made change, or how easily they counted their drawer down. Some would lose their minds if the customer offered up a few coins after they'd typed in $20.00 as the payment, because the register didn't say the right change anymore, and they couldn't figure out what the new change was (a couple had to be, um, relieved, when they yelled at customers for doing that).

I once gave a cashier a 50 and she gave me change for a twenty. She insisted I give her the change back so she could rescind the transaction and start over. I said "Why don't you just give me thirty dollars more?" and got a blank stare.

 

[Towlie]

I once gave a cashier a 50 and she gave me change for a twenty. She insisted I give her the change back so she could rescind the transaction and start over. I said "Why don't you just give me thirty dollars more?" and got a blank stare.

Nowadays cashiers let their terminals figure everything out for them. I once ordered a sandwich, fries, and a drink at McDonalds. The clerk clumsily punched the order in and said "that'll be $54.95" without even blinking.

 

[Amapola]

The difference is, nobody is ever proud of sucking at drawing.

They are, actually... I can't tell you how many times someone has said to me, "I can't even draw a straight line!" (pronounced with smug satisfaction). (And you thought drawing a cat face was easy!)

Well, I can draw. For evidence I offer this. In high school I experienced the same things that have been talked about here - social awkwardness, not being "cool" etc.

Now, no question math is more applicable to daily life than the ability to draw. But I think this is more the way people treat an outlier (as has been mentioned before, someone not in the center of the bell curve) than math particularly being singled out. I think people like to feel part of a group. To change that, well, most would have to be good at whatever - math, drawing etc. Then that would be what people desired, because that would be the norm for the group. Right now, it is not the norm for most to be good at math.

I suck at math. I suck at basic arithmetic. And I have to use it in my work, constantly... therefore I have struggled my whole life with it, and forced myself to do it all the time. I still suck at it... I *always* check my answers with a calculator when I am finished figuring it, because I make mistakes, and I can not afford to do that. If you are working out how many grams of gold need to be cast, and a gram of gold is going to cost you $X, you have to get it right. For me it never mattered if being good at math was cool or not cool, it's just a chore I have to get through - like washing dishes, or laundry.

 

[Uncayimmy]

They are, actually... I can't tell you how many times someone has said to me, "I can't even draw a straight line!" (pronounced with smug satisfaction). (And you thought drawing a cat face was easy!)

I have said that very line on many occasions. Never once have I felt smug doing so. It's a way of saying, "I find what you do amazing, especially considering that for me even something as simple as a straight line is difficult!"

 

[fuelair]

Math is hard. Math requires work. Many people don't like the idea of getting an answer wrong. Many people need to be less lazy and work harder in school.

Can you tell I just got done grading a bunch of physics labs?

Just curious: any of them get the math answer(s) wrong because they didn't have the concept down?

 

[fuelair]

LOL!

Have you ever (I mean this as a genuine "have you ever" not a snotty "have you ever") talked with the less mathematically inclined about how they approach relatively simple math problems? Let me give you an example:

175/7=?

How do you approach it? In my mind I just know 7*20=140. I then subtract 140 from 175 (actually, I don't - mind just automatically says "35" without any effort). What is 35/7? It's 5, of course. Thus my answer is 25. It's easy for me to hold those numbers in my head.

If I did it the long division (as taught in elementary school) way in my head, I would find it frustrating and, quite frankly, intimidating without a piece of paper and a pencil.

I spent many years in software development. My last boss, a man in his 70s who taught college as well as programmed computers for many moons, and I discussed how to teach programmers to think creatively. We both agreed that either your mind works a certain way or it doesn't. Nobody taught me how to solve the above problem like I did. Likewise, even though you could show programmers all sorts of clever ways to approach problems, some never come up with them on their own. To use a metaphor, they always use the long division method because that's a solid formula that always yields the right answer with a predictable number of steps.

Example: Suppose you had to write a program to determine the value of X given that X was an integer from 0 to 100.

* One guy loops a counter called i from 0 to 100 checking if x=i each time around. When they match, he quits and gives the answer.

* Another guy, who thinks he's being clever because he just read about a function that returns a random integer within a range, sets up an infinite loop generating a random number i and checking if x=1. Yech.

* Still another guy sees the above code and thinks, "Well, since the random number generator might repeat a number, I'm going to keep track of the numbers I've already checked so I don't check them again! I'm so smart!" This is a double-yech.

* The smart programmer writes a program that starts with the number 50 (1/2 of the range). He then checks if x>50. If not, he divides his starting number in half and checks if x>25. With just a few iterations he'll find the value of x.

How do you teach that? I never taught programming, but I did supervise and train a number of programmers. In my experience programmers either came up with that last solution or they didn't.

For me, the long division in my head for 175/7 is just as easy and as quick- but I understand your point.

 

[Amapola]

I have said that very line on many occasions. Never once have I felt smug doing so. It's a way of saying, "I find what you do amazing, especially considering that for me even something as simple as a straight line is difficult!"

I went out to breakfast with some friends this morning and brought up the topic of this thread because I thought it was pretty interesting. They felt it had somewhat to do with the age of the person involved. Both my friends told me that they were bad at math, but had absolutely no pride in it. In fact they regretted it and had taken steps to improve because it made them feel a little guilty to be so bad at math. (This is similar to the way I feel about it.) So I think at least the three of us would say, although we are all bad at math, we are amazed and appreciative of those who are good at it.

My friends felt however that kids in high school don't have this same type of attitude. They work with the local 4-H kids, and one of them teaches riding lessons to children in the summer and skiing to kids in the winter. Their feeling was that "kids these days" actually *do* think it is not cool to be good at math. That may just apply to the kids they have worked with, in this area. I surmise from reading this thread the phenomenon is more wide-spread.

So what about that? Is age a factor? Is there some age - over 40, say, where you don't tend to find the idea of being bad at math cool?

 

[borealys]

I have said that very line on many occasions. Never once have I felt smug doing so. It's a way of saying, "I find what you do amazing, especially considering that for me even something as simple as a straight line is difficult!"

The same way I don't feel smug when I say that I suck at mental arithmetic. Most people I talk to get that, though a few haven't, and have gotten snotty with me. There's a bit of oversensitivity to it in some circles, a tendency to assume that when certain kinds of people (say, linguistics majors) claim to be bad at math, that they're proud of it, rather than merely stating a fact.

Of course, often when I say it, I'm usually not just stating a fact. What I'm really saying is "please don't ask me to do that calculation in my head ... it'll be painful for both of us, and chances are I'll get it wrong."

Similarly, I have a coworker who often comments in my presence that she can barely draw a straight line. What she really means most of the time is that she'd like me to draw whatever it is that needs drawing, because I can draw moderately well.

 

[borealys]

My friends felt however that kids in high school don't have this same type of attitude. They work with the local 4-H kids, and one of them teaches riding lessons to children in the summer and skiing to kids in the winter. Their feeling was that "kids these days" actually *do* think it is not cool to be good at math. That may just apply to the kids they have worked with, in this area. I surmise from reading this thread the phenomenon is more wide-spread.

So what about that? Is age a factor? Is there some age - over 40, say, where you don't tend to find the idea of being bad at math cool?

Kids who are good at school in general (maybe especially math, I don't know) are often bullied, and called names like "brainer" that, really, in a culture that valued intelligence, ought not to be insults at all.

I have it on good authority (from a friend of a friend who happened to have been the girl who bullied me the most mercilessly in grade school) that that sort of bullying is often done out of feeling threatened by kids who seem to be smarter than you.

There were times as a kid that I would be tempted to throw a math test, just to make myself less of a target. I didn't, partly because I didn't really believe it would help (though if K was telling the truth, it just might have), and partly because I just couldn't bring myself to give a wrong answer when I knew the right one.

It wasn't so much that being bad at math was cool as that being good at math was uncool. A fine distinction, but possibly an important one.

 

[Terry]

I hate to derail this thread, but the attitude you describe is the reason so much software today runs slower than it should. We have a crop of programmers who look at each little piece of inefficient code as not being a big deal.

Premature optimization is the root of all evil (or at least most of it) in programming.

If the final program is too slow, it should be profiled, and the problematic area fixed.

 

[Amapola]

Kids who are good at school in general (maybe especially math, I don't know) are often bullied, and called names like "brainer" that, really, in a culture that valued intelligence, ought not to be insults at all.

I have it on good authority (from a friend of a friend who happened to have been the girl who bullied me the most mercilessly in grade school) that that sort of bullying is often done out of feeling threatened by kids who seem to be smarter than you.

There were times as a kid that I would be tempted to throw a math test, just to make myself less of a target. I didn't, partly because I didn't really believe it would help (though if K was telling the truth, it just might have), and partly because I just couldn't bring myself to give a wrong answer when I knew the right one.

It wasn't so much that being bad at math was cool as that being good at math was uncool. A fine distinction, but possibly an important one.

Maybe along the lines of, "Don't listen to them, they're just jealous!" sort of thing? That makes sense, in a weird sort of way.

 

[Uncayimmy]

If the final program is too slow, it should be profiled, and the problematic area fixed.

Just to be clear, we were talking about typing time being a factor in the decision about which method to use. That's different than "premature optimization," something I acknowledged regarding getting the bang for your buck in time spent on optimization.

I will say this in response to what you wrote: If you're discovering and dealing with the problem in the final program, it's too late in the game. It's far more expensive at that point. There's a difference between being casual about wasting processing power and RAM versus being incredibly stingy with it. I've met far more of the former, and found the latter easier to manage.

 

[Uncayimmy]

My friends felt however that kids in high school don't have this same type of attitude. They work with the local 4-H kids, and one of them teaches riding lessons to children in the summer and skiing to kids in the winter. Their feeling was that "kids these days" actually *do* think it is not cool to be good at math. That may just apply to the kids they have worked with, in this area. I surmise from reading this thread the phenomenon is more wide-spread.

So what about that? Is age a factor? Is there some age - over 40, say, where you don't tend to find the idea of being bad at math cool?

Note: My reaction to the generational stuff almost always starts from the position that the current generation is not fundamentally much different from the prior but that neither generation realizes it. With that confession out of the way...

I'm 43. I believe art reflects life. The movies from when I was coming up seem to reflect intelligence as a less than desirable trait: The Breakfast Club, Fast Times at Ridgemont High, Revenge of the Nerds. The stereotype of the brainy nerd has been around as long as I can remember. In my school system I was part of the first wave of gifted and talented programs. Trust me, it was not something you bragged about or which brought you respect.

YMMV.

 

[Modified]

If the final program is too slow, it should be profiled, and the problematic area fixed.

Optimization in the small at the cost of clarity is rarely worth it, but a good portion of real world speed issues involve the choice of algorithms or high-level design problems. Not to mention that a ten second execution time for some process may be considered acceptable when it could take one millisecond.

 

[GreyICE]

Why is it that whenever it comes to mathematics (including basic arithmetic and/or geometry) so many folks, including highly skilled individuals in their fields, fail so miserably? Just watch any game show or listen to any radio talk show (or just your average Joe).

Theory: Game shows are, in fact, designed to be stressful and difficult. This is how you get Elephant/Moon answers - bad reactions to stress.

 

[arthwollipot]

You used the word "math" then gave these examples. But I would NOT call those examples of math but examples of arithmetic.

Where does arithmetic end and math begin?

 

[GreyICE]

Where does arithmetic end and math begin?

Math doesn't have numbers. If it uses numbers, it's basically arithmetic.

 

[borealys]

Maybe along the lines of, "Don't listen to them, they're just jealous!" sort of thing? That makes sense, in a weird sort of way.

I heard that line so very, very many times when I was in grade school. I never once believed it. It was astonishing to learn that, in this one case at least, it was true.

But it does fit in with a general observation that, when you're a certain age, the coolest thing to be is just like everyone else. The worst bullying I experienced happened in the 10-13 age range, which happened to be the age where wearing the "right" clothing brand, listening to the "right" music, and watching the "right" TV shows was the most important (YMMV on the age group that's the worst for this. I found high school much better than middle school). Being different was uncool. Being different in a way that made you in any way "better" than anyone else was uncool and threatening. Some kids were able to compensate thanks to above-average social skills, and got to be both brainy and popular. The rest of us weren't so lucky.

For adults to think being bad at math is somehow "cool" is probably a sign that they've never really matured socially past that middle school worldview. Either that, or they're still intimidated by the brainers of the world, and are clinging to an old defense mechanism.

 

[drkitten]

Here's an experiment you might like to try, since both you and your wife are in education. Ask fellow educators (of almost any field) what is it that makes air go into a normal household vacuum cleaner ... in other words, how does it work, in very general terms. I'll bet you almost 100% will say that the somehow air gets sucked into it when in fact, there is no suction involved at all.

So what? You specifically asked for an answer "in very general terms" and now you're complaining when "very general terms" involves oversimplification?

See how many get that right.

Almost all of them will get it right. Applying an unfair grading standard will not change that.

Similarly, "sucking water up a straw" is a completely legitimate colloquialism, even though what actually happens is the water being pushed up by atmospheric pressure. Unless you are a hydraulic engineer and need to move water up more than about 30 feet, the difference isn't really that important.

 

[Uncayimmy]

Similarly, "sucking water up a straw" is a completely legitimate colloquialism, even though what actually happens is the water being pushed up by atmospheric pressure. Unless you are a hydraulic engineer and need to move water up more than about 30 feet, the difference isn't really that important.

A creative science teacher could take that one question and have it fill an hour of informative discussion. It can lead to discussions about barometers, suction cups, boiling points, why Hamburger Helper has a different directions for higher elevations, SCUBA diving, and countless other topics. It's not about fooling people; it's about getting them to think about wonder of the ordinary things around them.