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When it comes to math ...

I have a B.S. in physics with a math minor and an M.S. in physics. I have taught math, physical science, physics, and astronomy for 10+ years at both the high-school and college level... and I still need to use paper and pencil when doing long division.

That's why our teachers taught us how to write this stuff down :)
 
One other thing (not 100% of the reason, but perhaps somewhat to the point), mathematics requires logical thought ... there's no getting around it. Even though many mathematical problems can be approached differently, each requires a logical method to solve them. Critical thinking, to a degree. And I believe most of us are experience learners, not think-it-through-carefully learners. My mother was head of the mortgage department in a bank for over 30 years, she could balance a checkbook with half her brain tied behind her back. But ask her how many degrees in a triangle, or try to explain why 2x + 2x = 4x ... and she just couldn't get it. I also once worked with an electrician who just couldn't understand the Metric System. I then explained to him that 1) it's much easier to work with than the clumsy English system, and 2) everything he used with his work was metric (amps, watts, etc.). Go figure.
 
attitude & laziness

A couple of ideas come to mind from my own experience.

First, I think that the natural state for the human mind is one of intellectual laziness. People don't like to think and will deliberately avoid it if possible. As an example, I have offered over the years to teach any number of people how to play chess beyond the level of making random moves. The standard response is something in the way of "oh, no, you have to think to do that". It is quite common to use the need to think as the excuse to not even try.

Second is the attitude problem already noted by others. It is not just socially acceptable, but really socially preferable to be ignorant of math, science, or anything else that requires thinking. My wife has taught math & science in middle school, and now teaches high school. It is the norm for students who are good at math & science too be ridiculed openly for it. Hence, I think this attitude is something learned, not something that comes with us for being human.

It may well be that the attitude and the laziness are related. If we change the way schooling is done from the earliest years on, to eliminate the attitude that prefers ignorance of math & science, then we may well eliminate the laziness as well.

But brains are complicated things and it may not be so simple. Witness the ability of so many people to hold powerful personal convictions about topics in science (string theory, for instance) about which they actually know next too nothing. The strength of conviction does not come from knowledge, so where does it come from? Somewhere hidden in the brain?
 
But brains are complicated things and it may not be so simple. Witness the ability of so many people to hold powerful personal convictions about topics in science (string theory, for instance) about which they actually know next too nothing. The strength of conviction does not come from knowledge, so where does it come from? Somewhere hidden in the brain?

Established paradigms are next to impossible to change.

Here's an experiment you might like to try, since both you and your wife are in education. Ask fellow educators (of almost any field) what is it that makes air go into a normal household vacuum cleaner ... in other words, how does it work, in very general terms. I'll bet you almost 100% will say that the somehow air gets sucked into it when in fact, there is no suction involved at all. The air inside is first PUSHED out of some volume by means of a compressor wheel creating a low pressure zone behind it. This in turn allows the higher pressure ambient air to again be PUSHED into the device, taking along with it as much nearby debris as it can. There is no pulling (suction), only pushing. See how many get that right.
 
First, I think that the natural state for the human mind is one of intellectual laziness. People don't like to think and will deliberately avoid it if possible. As an example, I have offered over the years to teach any number of people how to play chess beyond the level of making random moves. The standard response is something in the way of "oh, no, you have to think to do that". It is quite common to use the need to think as the excuse to not even try.

The real reason they avoid it may be slightly different, though. The problem, I suspect, is that the enjoyment payoff from learning the activity and doing it well seems too far removed from the effort. That is, there's a perception that they will need to put in a LOT of effort before they get any enjoyment out of it. And if they aren't confident in their own intelligence, then they may also suspect that even after lessons they'll keep losing and won't enjoy the game. So the "you have to think" excuse may be exactly that: an excuse, and not the real reason.
 
There is no pulling (suction), only pushing. See how many get that right.

That's a bad question to ask because of possible ambiguities about what suction means.

The basic science question I really like is where does most of the mass of a tree come from. It starts out as a seed and ends up as this huge chunk of wood, and all that mass had to come from somewhere. Common answers are the soil and water, but the real answer is that most of the mass comes from the air.
 
That's a bad question to ask because of possible ambiguities about what suction means.

Bottom line, though, is that nothing is pulled into the vacuum cleaner --- and it is that false paradigm that I think is commonly accepted.
 
I completely failed to follow your thoughts there. I can usually do simple arithmetic in my head - this does not extend to most division.
I'm not sure I can explain my mental process. It's really as if my brain subconsciously "sees" an easy method based on things I already know. In this case I "automatically" know that 7*20 is less than 175 and that 7*30 is more than 175. So I know right off the bat that the answer is 20-something. So I do the first part (7*20), then do the rest (175-140=35, so what is 35/7?). I solve a few simple problems to get my answer. As I think about it, it really is like long division.

It is only quite recently that I internalised the idea that 57 + 48 = (50 + 40) + (7 + 8). Let me tell you that realisation made mental arithmetic a whole lot easier! I never picked up the similar trick for division though.
There's nothing wrong with what you do, I just do that problem differently. I use two steps. 57 + 40=97, then 97 + 8=105. If I did it the pencil and paper way in my head, it would be pain in the ass (see below).

My question, though, demonstrated my point. People have different mental processes and perhaps what you could call emotional responses to those processes. In your example, my method comes automatically and with ease. It feels good/right. Your method feels "contrived" to me, and it "bothers" me that it takes three steps instead of two. That's not a dig on you or anyone else who does it that way because it's really a great way of doing it.


What do you find intimidating about it? You only have to hold a one number in your head to calculate this the 'traditional' way, divide 7 into 17 remember the answer and carry the remainder. No divide again and combine. Don't you picture it in your head like you were writing it down? That's how I do it anyway.
That is an excellent question. No, I do not picture anything in my head at all. Zero. Nada. My ex-wife was a visual person as well as a school teacher. We had many discussions on this subject when we were much younger.

It was a startling realization for me that people actually pictured things in their head like that. Likewise she was blown away that people did not visualize things like she did. She did the math much like you describe. She couldn't fathom how I could do it without "seeing" anything.

Each year in the classroom she would discuss our dog, Buck, a black Labrador retriever. She would ask the kids by a show of hands how many automatically created a mental picture of a black Lab. It was always about half the class. The other half had no mental image unless they deliberately took the effort to create one. For them it was more like the brain automatically recalled facts about black Labs. That's how it works for me.

Even as I sit here and try to picture the long division in my head, I find it very difficult to create and hold those images. I can do it, but it takes me several times as long as my "natural" method. And I have to shut my eyes.

This is why I have empathy for people who find the process intimidating.
 
My average math scores. but exemplary language scores, and the fact that i can't 'music', makes me a believer in the guy's theory of different "intellects". Book named "The Seven Intellects" or some such. He posits that different parts of the brain are used for different intellectual functions. His theory is supposedly discredited, but not to me. Maybe they discredited it by using a mathematical system? ;)

I scored a 4 on the BBC test, but without pencil or calculator. Nor Googling pounds and euros exchange rates. Neither English monetry values. Got the chord question right, but only because the drawing was to scale. A Man has got to know how to live with his limitations.
 
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Second is the attitude problem already noted by others. It is not just socially acceptable, but really socially preferable to be ignorant of math, science, or anything else that requires thinking. My wife has taught math & science in middle school, and now teaches high school. It is the norm for students who are good at math & science too be ridiculed openly for it. Hence, I think this attitude is something learned, not something that comes with us for being human.
That is such an interesting phenomenon. Here's my armchair analysis:

People, especially kids and teens, want to be accepted. People have a natural and negative reaction to those that are different. If you're outside of the meat of the bell curve, you're different. Thus, you're not accepted. Pointing this out brings the rest closer together.

If you're going to be outside the bell curve, it had better be for something admirable such as sports. It's admirable to be gifted athletically, which probably has roots in evolution (mate with the strong). Same goes for cheerleaders - mate with the attractive and athletic.

The culture in the USA at least doesn't admire intelligence the way we admire athleticism. We admire money, and we all know that intelligence and money don't always correlate. Some of the most financially successful people from my high school were not the sharpest tools in the shed. Our valedictorian is a scientist for NOAA (yawn). Meanwhile the handsome and lovable but not-so-bright "Kevin" is a highly successful real estate agent with a hot wife and gorgeous kids.

So, any ideas for making intelligence and education a goal worthy of admiration?
 
So, any ideas for making intelligence and education a goal worthy of admiration?

Use a not-high-school judgment system?

I guess if you are going to start breeding right out of high school, your judgment may be valid. But I'll bet other NOAA scientist are in love with your valedictorian.

Personally, I'm not concerned with "the meat of the bell curve". I'm not in advertising.
 
Use a not-high-school judgment system?

I guess if you are going to start breeding right out of high school, your judgment may be valid. But I'll bet other NOAA scientist are in love with your valedictorian.
My judgment is valid whether you breed or not because I am not using it to justify anything. I am giving an armchair explanation for something we all observe. Many of us here value intellectual pursuits and quite frankly, look down on people who do not. We call them intellectually lazy. What we need to do is understand why some people don't value it the way we do and look for a way to change their value system or at least accept it.

BTW, I dated that valedictorian for a while, not that her love life was essential at all to my point.

Personally, I'm not concerned with "the meat of the bell curve". I'm not in advertising.
That comes across as intellectual snobbery. For the longest time it was thought that women were not equal to men intellectually. The culture had to change for it to be acceptable for a woman to become a lawyer, doctor, or crane operator as well as or instead of a mother. It took time and effort and a lot of what you refer to as "advertising" to get to make it socially acceptable.

My question was a sincere one. How do you change a culture to value intellectual pursuits considering what is currently valued socially?
 
I do all kinds of things with numbers all the time.
I'm an engineer, I live with and by numbers.
There's so many ways to look at them and play with them.
What bothers me more than innumeracy, is illiteracy!
This is a solely visual media, and accuracy in language is vital to getting one's ideas across.
Having to interpret what passes for communications nowadays on many forums is quite off-putting!
(And a surprising number of engineers are barely literate!)
 
uncaYimmy said:
My question was a sincere one. How do you change a culture to value intellectual pursuits considering what is currently valued socially?
If we knew how to do that, atheism probably wouldn't be the most hated class in America either. Tough question.
 
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Maybe people don't like maths because it is so easy to be proven to be unequivocably wrong.
 
Try these. They're all easy to do in your head once you know the secret:

47 X 53 = ?

92 X 88 = ?

76 X 84 = ?
 

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