When Did the Apollo Hoax Nonesnese start?

To those ignorant about space and astronomy, of course.

Of course. But every fictional story asks the viewer to suspend at least some disbelief. I can't watch Mission To Mars without cringing at the comically wrong orbital mechanics. But it works for the target audience. It conveys (however inaccurately) the impression that changing a dynamic state in space is resource-constrained, and that's a valuable bit of knowledge to instill.

So John Glenn was only joking when he said he was "sitting on top of two million parts -- all built by the lowest bidder" ?

Probably, but perhaps not.

In some cases the development and manufacturing contracts are let separately, and perhaps on a separate pricing basis. The Apollo guidance computer was designed by MIT but manufactured by Raytheon. The former had the brains and the latter had the nimble-fingered ladies who threaded the ROM ropes and placed the components on the boards. This was done for reasons of specialization.

For other smaller production runs, the contracts may be let together or integrated. Grumman was the prime development contractor for the Apollo lunar module and also the prime manufacturing and integration contractor. It would be entirely appropriate for a long-duration, Apollo-compatible ECS to be let as a development/manufacturing contract to, say, Hamilton-Standard on a cost-plus basis.

So while the development contract may be let on a cost-plus basis, the manufacturing contract may be a fixed-cost contract because there are fewer unknowns in that operation. I believe that was the case with the Atlas. Several development contracts were let, one to Convair who developed the winning design. Then perhaps other manufacturing contracts were let at fixed cost, then other refurbishment and adaption contracts for conversion into a manned booster. Lockheed got involved at some point, but I don't recall exactly how.

Probably the most amusing example of this from Apollo was the crawler-transporter. Bucyrus-Erie won the development contract and produced the winning design over its competitor Marion, but Marion won the manufacturing contract, building B-E's design.
 
I am no engineer but it is pretty clear to me that the hoaxers arguments if you follow them fall apart fairly quickly when clear minded and informed analysis is applied to them.

But that take hard work and application it is far easier to twist and turn in ever decreasingly absurd positions.

My final words on Apollo, a staggering amazing feat carried out be courageous and brave people, hopefully all the competeing space agencies can satrt working together to go back on a more permanent footing.

ESA has Arianne 5 a very capable heavy lift vehicle, the Jules verne robot capsule conceivalbly could be retrofited to be manned, NASA could train the astrounauts, the russians and Chinese and iNdians could provide creews as well as ESA and NASA
 
In a limited sense yes.......

I posted the following to the Apollohoax forum back in '04, but it also seems relevant here.

Link to original thread

What I meant was that people making comparisions between Kubricks 2001 & the Apollo 11 may have been the cause of the Moon Hoax belief.

In a limited sense yes.......There are some people that would respond to fraud claims based on the appearance/similarities of film. "Yeah, that's just like 2001! it's fake! It's Hollywood!" But this is only a fraction of "fraud responders", it may well even be a small minority of doubters who would have started out this way. Bill Kaysing for example was an early fraud advocate. His views were not not so based. He believed the Saturn V was not a capable machine among other objections which he so voiced in a self published book early on.

Seeing is believing types would fall into the category to which you refer, and so seeing something not quite right, or seeing something Stanley Kubrick movie-esque might well elicit a , "yeah, this may well all be fake".

Most people that come to the conclusion that Apollo is fake on there own, people that decide on Apollo fraudulence INDEPENDENTLY, primarily come to such a conclusion based on plausibility concerns. They see holes in the story here and there, and as they doubt, the force of the doubt mounts. As they read the story as possibly scripted/not real. they read/find/see more errors of one kind or another, whether it is waving flags, problems with radiation tolerance, guidance issues, and indeed, inconsistencies with regard to claims about the photos and the doubter's views of the world's visual realities.

It is an interesting point you raise simply because most present day fraud advocates probably do not know Kubrick, not well anyway, but his film may have got the fake moon rock rolling for many. Those responding to that notion years back may have created a cultural milieu, wherein if not broadly accepted, at least fraud might be, was, and now IS a possibility.

Check out the brilliant William Karel film OPERATION LUNE in which Kubrick's roll in the "fraud" is key. Here, Karel presents a vision of Apollo reality in which whether they landed or not is rather immaterial in one sense. What is important is having credible, though altogether fake photos of the landing, whether the actual landing was staged or "real". Karel's views are otta' site, otta' this world , will really get ya' thinking about the role of images in our culture, and Kubrick's work in particular.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVtiL0MnLqg
 
Last edited:
Oh, you mean the FAKE documentary about Kubrick's involvement with Apollo?

"It is finally revealed that this is a mockumentary as the end credits roll over a montage of blooper reels, with the main participants laughing over the absurdity of their lines or questioning if particular ones would give the joke away too soon. Besides being a comedic documentary, it is also an exercise in Jean Baudrillard's theories of hyperreality. In a 2004 interview, the director was asked why he would elect to make a film "closer to a comedy than a serious film"; Karel replied that in the wake of having made serious documentaries, the objective was "de faire un film drôle" (to make a funny film).[1]
Several of the fictitious interviewees, such as Dave Bowman, Jack Torrance, and Dimitri Muffley are named after characters from movies directed by Kubrick. "
 
Karel's thesis is that if you put it on television, it doesn't matter what you say -- some rube will believe it.

Stanley Kubrick's 2001 significantly raised the bar for space epics, in terms both of dramatic verisimilitude and of visual effects. I correspond on and off with Tony Frewin, one of Kubrick's assistants and the screenwriter of Color Me Kubrick. Frewin has long desired to repudiate the rumors that Kubrick helped fake the Moon landings, but fears he'll just be dismissed as a "Kubrick shill."
 
It's been a long time favorite of mine- I bought it as sincere until I kept noticing all the Kubrickian names popping up. Needless to say, the barabric yawps of YT say it's TOTEZ TRUE, MAN!!!11
 
You are missing the point which Karel addresses directly in the outtakes....

Oh, you mean the FAKE documentary about Kubrick's involvement with Apollo?

"It is finally revealed that this is a mockumentary as the end credits roll over a montage of blooper reels, with the main participants laughing over the absurdity of their lines or questioning if particular ones would give the joke away too soon. Besides being a comedic documentary, it is also an exercise in Jean Baudrillard's theories of hyperreality. In a 2004 interview, the director was asked why he would elect to make a film "closer to a comedy than a serious film"; Karel replied that in the wake of having made serious documentaries, the objective was "de faire un film drôle" (to make a funny film).[1]
Several of the fictitious interviewees, such as Dave Bowman, Jack Torrance, and Dimitri Muffley are named after characters from movies directed by Kubrick. "

You are missing Karel's point BaaBaa, a point which Karel addresses directly, states very EXPLICITLY, in the outtakes.....

This is NOT a documentary/mockumentary in ANY genuine/literal sense, and it is NOT about Apollo fraud per se. It is an artistic piece which makes a strong statement about the strange realities of our culture. After the conclusion of the film, there is a great interview with Karel in which he talks about the film's inception and his views as regards his own film. Specifically, what the film's intent was, what Karel's intent was/is in making the film.

The film was made for television, and the television company that commissioned its production began by asking Karel to make a film, the theme of which would deal with the role of images in western culture. By images, Karel means media in its broadest sense, including artistic media like his film itself, and in this way, the film is remarkably and beautifully self referential in addition to the film’s addressing the theme of images in culture directly, a brilliant twist indeed, this self referential second turn of the screw!

Karel states in the interview that he initially thought about using the JFK assassination as the film’s “subject matter”. Here “subject matter” does not mean that the film was to be be a genuine documentary/mockumentary which would seek to comment in some direct way on the JFK assassination, speak to the assassination’s occult realities per se, but rather, this would be a film about the role of imagery in the context of the JFK issue, and more importantly, a commentary on the role of imagery as regards general public perception of ANY IMPORTANT CULTURAL ISSUE/EVENT FOR THAT MATTER(WW II, a political debate, Apollo, the OJ Simpson case, etc.). How do images impact/manipulate/color/influence/distort/refine/damage/provoke/alter/create/DEFINE our culture’s perception of the truth, the JFK assassination’s realities, or the realities of ANY MAJOR CULTURAL EVENT.

Karel decided against the Kennedy assassination setting as he said that he did not want “death” to be a major part of the film’s landscape. Conspiracy theories were/are great however for their controversy lends itself well to the notion that the unknown truth is subject to distortion or crystalline clarity of perception depending on the prism, images through which these controversial events are viewed.

Karel settled on the subject of Apollo because it was present tense topical at the time he made the film. There were 300 web sites he mentioned in which Apollo was discussed, presumably in some sense contentiously.

Karel makes it a point in his film to leave the question of the landing’s reality ambiguous. IN KAREL’S FILM, IT IS NOT CLEAR AT ALL AS TO WHETHER ASTRONAUTS LANDED OR DID NOT LAND ON THE MOON AND THIS IS INTENTIOANL AS THE POINT OF THE FILM IS THAT THE REALITY IS OF SECONDARY IMPORTANTANCE, THE IMAGES PRESENTING THE REALITY ARE WHAT MATTERS, AND IN THE CASE OF APOLLO SPECIFICALLY, MATTERED MOST, AND IRRESPECTIVE OF APOLLO "TRUTH" DEFINED ITS "REALITY" . So it did not matter if the Apollo 11 astronauts landed or not. Nixon as prez of the U.S. needed photos to prove this occurred. Whether it did occur or not was almost IRRELEVANT.

Karel’s film is NOT ABOUT APOLLO. He could have said the same thing using the JFK assassination as the film’s setting, or the SUPER BOWL for that matter. The film is not a film about Apollo as fraud, not a film addressing conspiracy concerns. It is a film about the role of media and images, their POWER, in our culture, the way in which they DEFINE OUR REALITY, OUR HISTORY IRRESPECTIVE OF WHAT EVENTS DID IN FACT FORM AND DISOLVE IN SPACE-TIME.

Karel’s film, OPERATION LUNE, is only relevant to this thread in the sense that it INDIRECTLY touches on the subject of the role of imagery in the case of Apollo in particular. To be sure, Karel must have his own views with respect to Apollo, fake vs. real. But he doesn’t tip his hand here, tell us what he thinks about Apollo’s authenticity, in his own film. Apollo is an incidental , though brilliantly employed backdrop. Check the film out. As I go along and think about it more and more, it strikes me more and more as the little masterpiece which it indeed it is, simply fabulous, especially its self referential aspects which I have not even touched on here in this brief discussion. The first time I saw the film, I did not realize how flat out great it was/is. Check it out, Karel has something to say about us that is astonishing, true and frightening.
 
Last edited:
I disagree, I think the film presents Apollo "??authenticity??" ambiguously....

No, Karel's movie makes no sense if you think he seriously questions the Moon landings. I talked to Karel. He believes they're real.

I disagree, I think the film presents Apollo authenticity/inauthenticity in an ambiguous light, and I believe that to be intentional on the part of Karel. Were you correct Jay, there would be direct reference to the reality of the landing in the film. NO such direct reference to Apollo authenticity is made.....

Regardless, the film is not about Apollo inauthenticity/authenticity. It is a film about imagery in our "modern" culture.....
 
Last edited:
The point of the film is NOT what Karel believes or not by the way....

No, Karel's movie makes no sense if you think he seriously questions the Moon landings. I talked to Karel. He believes they're real.

The point of the film is NOT what Karel believes or not by the way...Not knowing Karel, I would have ventured to guess that more likely than not, Karel would be an Apollo believer. This has little or nothing to do with the film. Karel's presentation of Apollo's reality in the film is intentionally indefinite....
 
You said Karel believes the landings to be real,

What part of "I talked to Karel" was unclear?

You said Karel believes the landings to be real. You did not say Karel features this personal point of view in his film. You did not say Karel told you he featured this personal point of view in his film. He does not. It is not a film about what he believes. Ask him that question, "does the film present Apollo as authentic vs inauthentic". HE will say neither. The question is left open and is not relevant to the film's theme.
 
Last edited:
Ask him that question, "does the film present Apollo as authentic vs inauthentic". HE will say neither. The question is left open and is not relevant to the film's theme.

You are not Karel. You don't speak for Karel. I don't care what you think Karel must have meant. I talked to Karel himself.
 
The point of the film is NOT what Karel believes or not by the way...Not knowing Karel, I would have ventured to guess that more likely than not...

Now why would you rely on "guesses" when we have Jay right here to tell us what Karel intended??


...or will you call Jay, a liar, again??
 
Last edited:
Until the credits roll, and you realize he's been kidding all along and is now letting you in on the joke.

That would involve Patrick1000 watching the whole thing. Based on his past efforts I imagine he skimmed just enough to wing it with his original post and as so many times before got caught out.

It's also funny that CT's tend to get hung up on Kubrick so much when the Moon sequences are so far removed from Apollo. Countdown from the same year is perhaps a more realistic template, and it still falls far short of recreating vacuum and low gravity. Of course the sensible explanation for Diamonds are Forever, 2001, and Countdown is that Apollo was a huge project that grabbed people's imagination and film makers, or at least the studios, wanted to tap into that.
 
Now why would you rely on "guesses" when we have Jay right here to tell us what Karel intended?

There was a lot of discussion about the film when it first came out. It seemed very important to determine exactly what Karel had in mind, since so many people were portraying him as a conspiracy theorist. So even though it took a while, I finally reached him to ascertain his intent.

His point in a nutshell is, "See how easy it is for me, using a trusted format, to erode faith in a conclusion that shouldn't even be questioned." The credit sequence is crucial, since it exposes that the entire preceding documentary was completely staged and was not meant to be taken seriously. It is revealed as a send-up, through and through. If you leave the show thinking Karel really was trying to question the Moon landings, you got the wrong idea. You're supposed to wonder at how easy it was to be swayed into error, even when there were signs along the way that you shouldn't be taking this seriously.

So crucial is the credit-sequence "punchline" that Karel had to write into the license that the credits couldn't be altered, as some local markets were substituting it with their own remastered credits in order to segue into the next program.

But if you think Karel has any legitimate goal to stirring up doubt about the authenticity of the Moon landings, you're very, very wrong. He's doing it only so that he can "zing" you in the credits and make you either very proud for sticking to your guns or very silly for believing the gunk.
 
The point of the film is NOT what Karel believes or not by the way...Not knowing Karel, I would have ventured to guess that more likely than not, Karel would be an Apollo believer. This has little or nothing to do with the film. Karel's presentation of Apollo's reality in the film is intentionally indefinite....

LOL, why does the CIA guy only speak Russian?

The intent is clear.
 

Back
Top Bottom