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WHATTTT????? Oprah... ***BLEEP***

It seems like there is a channel for every subject. It kind of makes sense that there is a channel for being a complete moron.

ETA: Does anybody else think it's odd that Jenny McCarthy blogs about having PMS? http://www.oprah.com/bi/jenny-mccarthy
 
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Well, I don't think there is any imminent danger that vaccines could be banned, but by influencing large numbers of people in a democracy, there is a possibility that vaccines could be made optional and that enough people would opt out that preventable diseases could increase.

I don't think they'll ever be made optional. I am concerned, though, that not vaccinating could become the latest trend among the mainstream. .
 
http://www.slate.com/id/2217798/pagenum/all/#p2

Chastising a celebrity is an exercise in futility. You feel like a kitten being held by the scruff of its neck, scrabbling wildly in the air without drawing blood. Pointless as this may be, though, I will try to talk some sense into Oprah Winfrey, who has decided to go into business with vaccine skeptic Jenny McCarthy.
javascript:toolAction('print','2217798')There is abundant evidence that vaccines don't cause autism. More than a dozen studies, as well as trend data from California and other states, show that neither the mercury-containing preservative thimerosal nor the measles-mumps-rubella vaccine causes autism. In March, a federal court dismissed both of these theories in a most definitive way after hearing weeks of testimony and gathering thousands of pages of evidence.

Excellent article. Gotta give kudos when we can, since the media rarely gets it this right.
 
Well, in the US, it has to be a cause in the "clear and present" sense to be considered as not protected speech. Given the vagaries of epidemics, it is nearly impossible to imagine enough people citing a single instance of speech as being the proximate cause for their children's lack of vaccinations, and also having that group of people being key in an epidemic spreading, all the while imagining that there is not a lawyer somewhere in the country who couldn't at least claim that a "resonable person" would see the speech as a benign suggestion . . .
I almost (N.B., I said "almost") wish it were easier to curtail speech when I hear about things like this, but our intelligent speech simply must overwhelm the pro-disease speech.
We should be as loud as they are.
No, we should be louder and more obnoxious. To all those who argue that we shouldn't stoop to "their" level, I remind you all that the USA is a nation at "their" level, and is not likely to be coaxed onto the ladder of awareness by offering citations to peer-reviewed studies.
We need ads with naked hunks imploring housewives to vaccinate.
We need ads implying that not vaccinating your children will make you fat.
It's America (well, it's the USA in this case, but Canada is watching hockey right now), and America is not going to listen to a reasoned argument.
Yes, it's dirty and wrong, but loud and stupid is the only language that gets airtime.

There's some merit to this. I generally think the high road approach is the one to take in most situations, "don't stoop to their level" and all of that, but really, how do you counter propaganda and lies when no one wants to hear about anything but propaganda and lies?

I think that's one of the reasons that stuff like this can get headlines so quickly, and spread so easily: people like quick, easy answers they don't have to think about, they like being told what to think. Science and skepticism try not to tell you what to think, but give you the facts and let you figure it out, or at most, give and answer with supporting facts that you're supposed to check yourself. When science does make an argument from authority, the authority making the claim is usually an expert in a field that the public doesn't even understand - which is exactly why that scientist qualifies as an authority, and exactly why the public doesn't understand why they should listen to him/her.

We need a PR wing, I think. I would hesitate to go as far as the "vaccinate because it'll keep you from getting fat" sort of stuff, but there ought to be more stuff out there promoting good science, sound advice from educated people instead of celebrities or anyone with internet access, and general critical thinking. Further, the public seems to have the long-term memory of a goldfish, so people need to be reminded of the things they take for granted.

e.g. Why don't people die of smallpox or come down with polio all of the time? And how many people used to, before vaccination, how many are likely to if we stop vaccinating, etc.

The other problem with this sort of thing is that there's just enough skepticism in the public mind to not trust ads like this that are sponsored by the people selling the product they claim is beneficial. (That whole "big pharma is teh EVUL!" side of the anti-vax nonsense.)

But I think we should get out there and speak up. Get on TV, on the talk shows and the radio. Every time someone launches into something as harmful as anti-vax, we should fire back twice as hard. I think this should be done with all forms of woo. Psychics, astrologers, ghost hunters, ufologists, Anything that promotes credulous thinking, especially for self-serving reasons, should be fought and exposed as the lie it is.

And, before I convince myself I'm some sort of rabid zealot, let's remember that, if these things are true, they'll stand up to the criticisms, right? If there really are ghosts out there, no amount of saying "there are no ghosts" will make them disappear - any more than saying "there are ghosts" will make ghosts appear where there are none. If someone IS right about vaccines or astrology, or whatever, then questioning them, challenging them is the best way to help them prove it. But if there isn't any truth to their claim, then it needs to be exposed and the public needs to understand WHY.

OK, I tend to ramble. Sorry. Hopefully someone sees my point, though.
 
There's some merit to this. I generally think the high road approach is the one to take in most situations, "don't stoop to their level" and all of that, but really, how do you counter propaganda and lies when no one wants to hear about anything but propaganda and lies?

I think that's one of the reasons that stuff like this can get headlines so quickly, and spread so easily: people like quick, easy answers they don't have to think about, they like being told what to think. Science and skepticism try not to tell you what to think, but give you the facts and let you figure it out, or at most, give and answer with supporting facts that you're supposed to check yourself. When science does make an argument from authority, the authority making the claim is usually an expert in a field that the public doesn't even understand - which is exactly why that scientist qualifies as an authority, and exactly why the public doesn't understand why they should listen to him/her.

We need a PR wing, I think. I would hesitate to go as far as the "vaccinate because it'll keep you from getting fat" sort of stuff, but there ought to be more stuff out there promoting good science, sound advice from educated people instead of celebrities or anyone with internet access, and general critical thinking. Further, the public seems to have the long-term memory of a goldfish, so people need to be reminded of the things they take for granted.

e.g. Why don't people die of smallpox or come down with polio all of the time? And how many people used to, before vaccination, how many are likely to if we stop vaccinating, etc.

The other problem with this sort of thing is that there's just enough skepticism in the public mind to not trust ads like this that are sponsored by the people selling the product they claim is beneficial. (That whole "big pharma is teh EVUL!" side of the anti-vax nonsense.)

But I think we should get out there and speak up. Get on TV, on the talk shows and the radio. Every time someone launches into something as harmful as anti-vax, we should fire back twice as hard. I think this should be done with all forms of woo. Psychics, astrologers, ghost hunters, ufologists, Anything that promotes credulous thinking, especially for self-serving reasons, should be fought and exposed as the lie it is.

And, before I convince myself I'm some sort of rabid zealot, let's remember that, if these things are true, they'll stand up to the criticisms, right? If there really are ghosts out there, no amount of saying "there are no ghosts" will make them disappear - any more than saying "there are ghosts" will make ghosts appear where there are none. If someone IS right about vaccines or astrology, or whatever, then questioning them, challenging them is the best way to help them prove it. But if there isn't any truth to their claim, then it needs to be exposed and the public needs to understand WHY.

OK, I tend to ramble. Sorry. Hopefully someone sees my point, though.

We can't do the PR thing becuase we need truth in advertising.

Look at the anti drug campaigns. The government tells kids that smoking weed will turn them into crack whores.
Then they find out that it only makes you eat twinkies and watch Star Trek reruns and they never again believe what the government tells them.

Sadly the best approach would be to highlight the cases where kids die due to lack of vaccination.

How badly does that suck? We've got the whole third world as a horrible example.
 
I respectfully suggest we find a spare brain that is not in use and mail it to her instead. :eek:

Why? Hers is, presumably, perfectly good, and has never been used... :p

She looks good naked
Evidence? :D

(just kidding, I know there's a lot of her ... um... available out there.)

We can't do the PR thing becuase we need truth in advertising.
Why? The woos don't bother with truth...

Look at the anti drug campaigns. The government tells kids that smoking weed will turn them into crack whores.
Then they find out that it only makes you eat twinkies and watch Star Trek reruns and they never again believe what the government tells them.

Well, yeah, but has there ever been much reason to believe anything the government tells anybody?

Sadly the best approach would be to highlight the cases where kids die due to lack of vaccination.

How badly does that suck? We've got the whole third world as a horrible example.

But third world examples would be dismissed as deaths for other reasons. Better examples would be anti-vax victims from the modern world. Still, you're right that pointing out tragedies is a Suck strategy.
 
We can't do the PR thing becuase we need truth in advertising.
I wasn't advocating lying, just putting a prettier, flashier face on it. Jenny McCarthy wants to get on the air and spout her crazy all over the place? Fine, we get House, half of E.R., Grey's Anatomy, Scrubs, whoever, to do a bunch of PSAs explaining the virtues of vaccination. (Sort of the old "I'm not a doctor, but I play one on TV..." but no costumes, and nothing cheesy like that line I just used.) And another series going into the numbers of how many people had polio/smallpox/whatever before we vaccinated, and how quickly that changed with the vaccine. This could be done using numbers in the US, or in third-world countries where we're just starting to distribute the vaccines. And another explaining the ONLY "scientific" study that ever found a link between autism and vaccines, and just how completely and utterly discredited it has been, and exactly why.

Get celebrities who like to advocate causes to speak up about science, reason, skepticism, and critical thinking. Sponsor ads with pretty, headline-grabbing people, but have them read from a script that's written by scientists, and is based on facts, not opinion. Have other ads where celebrities explain WHY they defer to experts on things, and how they like to shape their beliefs based on evidence and studies performed by qualified people, not some nutjob with a blog or a microphone.

Turn it into something trendy. Sure, the ideas of "trendiness" and celebrity-worship are contrary to critical thinking, but you're not going to win anyone over by, effectively, if not literally, making fun of or insulting their way of thinking. Use the tools that are already there: people want to mimic celebrities? Fine, get a bunch of celebrities to tell people to stop mimicking them. It won't work for everyone, but if it gets enough people moving in the right direction, it'll carry over to other parts of society.

Again, I ramble. And I seriously doubt anything like this would really happen, but it's a novel idea.

Part of the problem, and this isn't a celebrity only thing, is that the level-headed people/celebrities tend to keep quiet and go about their lives, while the crazies like to shout and scream until they get their way. We should be encouraging the quieter, more sensible people/celebrities to speak up - not shout and scream, but speak up clearly and effectively, to counter the nutjobs.
 
e.g. Why don't people die of smallpox or come down with polio all of the time? And how many people used to, before vaccination, how many are likely to if we stop vaccinating, etc.

RNA viruses don't have the checks and balances like dna viruses (polio) have to keep them from mutating as much, and therefore our vaccines work better on dna viruses and for longer. RNA viruses (flu, HIV) mutate much more and therefore can have survivors that get around anything our immune systems (with the aid of vaccines or not) can try to do to thwart them.
Get celebrities who like to advocate causes to speak up about science, reason, skepticism, and critical thinking. Sponsor ads with pretty, headline-grabbing people, but have them read from a script that's written by scientists, and is based on facts, not opinion.

Yeah, good luck finding a celebrity that will pay any attention to science and even get the point of the topic right. You have to remember that these people didn't exactly go to science class-ever, they went to acting classes. You also have to pay them, and Oprah has way more money than any scientist does. Until science becomes advertising funded, entertainment based, and much easier for people to grasp (but we don't want it dumbed down anyways), it will always be difficult to get these subjects noticed over Hannah Montana and playboy bunnies.

Are there any existing celebs that would have a clue? We have science celebs (Phil Plait), but they are not as well known as most of the no-minds out there. Why do people even listen to celebs, they don't know a darn thing!!!

The thing to do is make science more interesting, since it is, and get media to pick up science based shows (mythbusters). People with the resources should make shows that appeal to people about biology too. There are some cartoons for kids, but not many that get really in depth on how the immune system works, how vaccines work, etc. Dispelling antivax myths from childhood with just interesting facts on the reality of it all would be great if more people could get educated on it and spread the word instead of misinformation.

Rather than dumbing it down, start with the basics and go up from there. Our science educations are even getting severely lacking, so rather than getting existing celebrities, put on science shows and make charismatic scientists into celebrities.
 
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The recommended book is the "The Anatomy Coloring Book" -- not exactly the sort of thing with PubMed references. :boggled:

I love the Anatomy Coloring Book! :D

Seriously, best study tool ever. Except for its page on the ear. Didn't have the level of detail I had to learn. *grumbles incoherently about Deiters cells and osseus spiral laminae*

Not that I'd cite it to prove a point or anything, but still. Love it. ;)


Chastising a celebrity is an exercise in futility. You feel like a kitten being held by the scruff of its neck, scrabbling wildly in the air without drawing blood. Pointless as this may be, though, I will try to talk some sense into Oprah Winfrey, who has decided to go into business with vaccine skeptic Jenny McCarthy.

One small nitpick. I hate hate hate the term "vaccine skeptic" to describe these people. Not believing the conventional wisdom does not, in and of itself, make you a skeptic. Sometimes it just makes you an idiot. In this case, a dangerous idiot.
 
I love the Anatomy Coloring Book! :D

Seriously, best study tool ever. Except for its page on the ear. Didn't have the level of detail I had to learn. *grumbles incoherently about Deiters cells and osseus spiral laminae*

Not that I'd cite it to prove a point or anything, but still. Love it. ;)




One small nitpick. I hate hate hate the term "vaccine skeptic" to describe these people. Not believing the conventional wisdom does not, in and of itself, make you a skeptic. Sometimes it just makes you an idiot. In this case, a dangerous idiot.
I just want to clarify that I didn't say that, it is quoted from the link I posted (as indicated by "posted by" instead of "quote"). I totally agree with you. McCarthy isn't using an ounce of critical thinking, therefore she is not a "skeptic", but a misinformed ***BEEEP*** who thinks there is no "sugar" in fruit juice.
 
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Ugh. I just read the comments. The usual ridiculous claims that doctors DISCOURAGE nursing (mine only ever encouraged it, funny how reality has no meaning to the antivaxxers though).

*doubletake*

What? Who in the bloody world thinks that doctors discourage nursing? (I'm assuming you are talking about breastfeeding)

Shoot, even the evil AAP (according to antivaxxers) says

"The AAP is here to help you with breastfeeding whether you are a parent, professional, advocate for breastfeeding — or all 3. Advocating for children through the protection, promotion, and support of breastfeeding is a high priority for the AAP. "

Consider the AAP Policy on Breastfeeding:

http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/pediatrics;115/2/496
"Pediatricians and other health care professionals should recommend human milk for all infants in whom breastfeeding is not specifically contraindicated and provide parents with complete, current information on the benefits and techniques of breastfeeding to ensure that their feeding decision is a fully informed one.147–149
When direct breastfeeding is not possible, expressed human milk should be provided"

Does that sound like they are discouraging breastfeeding?

Then again, what does the AAP know? They also recommend vaccination.


I'm assuming the "doctors" were so ill prepared to deal with the actual antivax claims (that vaccines aren't tested, etc.) that they weren't able to fire back any stats or facts on vaccine testing or vaccine ingredients at all (I haven't had time to watch it).

So, this is yet another media platform conquered by ignorance. Yeah, good going guys. Let's just stick the antivaxxers up on a pedestal and worship them while we're at it.

I have a lot I could say about this, but I will just say I don't really hold it against the doctors on the TV show. This is kind of like random anthropologists debating creationists. They think that everything will be fine because they are experts, and the facts are on their side. So when it comes to an honest debate, they will be fine. Of course, they aren't prepared for the dishonesty and denial of reality that they will face, and so they get steamrolled. This is a tough enough situation for pediatricians, much less your random GPs (or in this case, MPs - Media Practicioners)

OK, we'd prefer it doesn't happen but it will. The question is what are they going to do about it? Now, as I said, I don't hold it against the doctors for getting blindsided, but they do need to address it. For example, have a show with folks like Paul Offitt or the president of the AAP, and have them respond to the claims that were made. Show a clip where they make some nonsense claim and then have them respond and explain why it is silly.

If the doctors have integrity, that is the type of thing they will do. I'll give them a chance. However, if they let it go unchecked, then we have got a problem...
 
I just posted this on the The Doctors website under the McFructose video clips:

Okay. Let's say for the sake of argument that only two vaccines have been looked at (which I don't for a second accept as fact at this time.) Well, number one, why haven't ANTI-VACCINE DOCTORS looked at all the other vaccines, instead of complaining about it? Has the doctor in the audience looked at other vaccines, or convinced anyone else to look at more? That's a simple case of the pot calling the kettle black. He should put his money where his mouth is.

Number two, so many people are convinced that vaccines are the only possible cause of autism that they are totally ruling out ANY OTHER POSSIBLE CAUSE! That's utterly and completely irresponsible of all anti-vaxxers, don't you think?

And number three. Well, I'm sorry, but I absolutely refuse to take my medical advice from someone whose only claim to fame is that she took her clothes off 15 years ago and is occasionally funny.

Number 4: If vaccines cause autism, and every child gets vaccines, then why is it that boys get autism at a rate 4 TIMES HIGHER than girls do? Why don't they get it at roughly the same rate? And why are there so many different levels of autism across a broad spectrum? Ah, I know what some of you are thinking: Because boys are different from girls, and vaccines affect children differently.

But basically what you've just argued is that everyone is different - everyone has different genes. And that's the same as saying certain people are more genetically inclined to get any given disease, from cancer to heart disease to Parkinson's to autism. Why then aren't you arguing that autism is genetic? Conversely, why aren't you arguing that vaccines cause any other diseases or disorders to manifest in children?

Disclosure: I have 5-year-old fraternal twin boys. One of them has autism. It's not gender. They're both boys. It's not the environment - twins, growing up in literally the same environment all the time. It's not the vaccines - they got vaccinated at exactly the same time. The only way they could be more genetically similar is if they had been identical twins.

That's just it, though. They're not identical. So one has autism, and one doesn't. Know what that tells me? That all other things being equal, genes are the only thing that could have caused autism. And in my opinion, saying vaccines cause autism is like saying Medicare causes Alzheimer's.

I know it might not JUST be genes. I'm not stupid enough to exclude other things, and my situation is anecdotal. Still, most things are. Women who have relatives with breast cancer are more likely to get it themselves, right? That means it's at least partially genetic.
 
I just want to clarify that I didn't say that, it is quoted from the link I posted (as indicated by "posted by" instead of "quote"). I totally agree with you. McCarthy isn't using an ounce of critical thinking, therefore she is not a "skeptic", but a misinformed ***BEEEP*** who thinks there is no "sugar" in fruit juice.

Didn't mean to imply you said it. My bad.

I couldn't help noticing how prominent the phrase "vaccine skeptic" was in the otherwise good article. She shouldn't get to use it. A real skeptic does not rely on the University of Google and "mommy instinct" to evaluate medical claims.

The fruit juice thing, if it weren't part of such a scary situation, would have me on the floor in tears of laughter. What a frickin' moron!
 
Telling lies about such things should be illegal. I'm serious. This is speech that is harmful to the general public and will cause death and disease.


That kind of thing is designed for abuse. Something needs to be done because of things like this though, the story was essentially manufactured out of nothing and it is now something most people are aware of.


I think that perhaps there should be some kind of limits on the amount of time available to talk about different sides of the issues, or some kind of real actual qualifications set to determine who is an expert and who can be referenced as one on television, or maybe restrictions on the type of language that can be used. Like a disclaimer about how the initial report wasn't scientific evidence of anything but rather a suggestion to investigate some possible connection might have made the reaction a lot less hysterical. Outright banning 'dangerous' ideas seems potentially more dangerous for the general public than the current system in place.
 
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It seems like there is a channel for every subject. It kind of makes sense that there is a channel for being a complete moron.

ETA: Does anybody else think it's odd that Jenny McCarthy blogs about having PMS? http://www.oprah.com/bi/jenny-mccarthy


Or that she claims she's so chronically constipated that she only has a bowel movement once every 14 days. I guess that's why she seems so full of it.
 

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