TubbaBlubba
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Neo-nazis are nothing like actual Nazis, and Putin is just like Hitler.
What's wrong with what Russia's doing?
- Thread starter Delvo
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Neo-nazis are nothing like actual Nazis, and Putin is just like Hitler.
Yeah. It's funny how these things turn out, isn't it. Although I wouldn't say they're "nothing like" actual Nazis, there are similarities and differences, but I think the differences strongly outweigh the similarities.
Putler has a rhetoric notably (but not completely!) different than Hitler, but emulates many of his actions to an alarming degree. Neo-Nazis pay lip service to Hitler, but are unable to emulate his actions or actions of the Nazi party to any substantial degree. In fact, I strongly suspect many neo-Nazis would be scheduled for termination (or at least mandatory castration) by the Nazis.
It's a matter of what you perceive as more important - rhetoric or actions. I always consider actions as much, much more important and telling than rhetoric. You may disagree, of course.
McHrozni
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TubbaBlubba
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Being in a country with both right-wing nationalists (The Sweden Democrats) in the government, and actual neo-nazi parties outside it (most notably Part of the Swedes, previously the Swedish National Socialists, who hold a municipal seat or two and along with their sister organizations are responsible for a significant chunk of hate crimes yearly), the most significant difference between the neo-nazis and "actual" nazis appear to be that the actual nazis wielded political power. The neo-nazis want to devise genetic tests for "Swedishness" and "expel" the people who don't live up to it (and we all know what happens when you have nowhere to expel undesireables). (Upon being told that there are no such genetic tests, they replied that "Well, you can tell by looking.)
Furthermore, the difference between the right-wing nationalists and the neo-nazis (And there are, of course, intricate and endless connections between them, however much denial there is) appears to mostly be that the right-wing nationalists are better at making their policies appear palatable. I don't think they would ever get quite as extreme as the neo-nazis, but certainly they would go quite a bit further than "reducing immigration". To anyone with an understanding of their history, structure and membership, that much is apparent.
TubbaBlubba
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And let me add that I am certainly no fan of Putin. He's a right-wing nationalist expansionist autocrat; I would easily go as far as to call him a fascist. But to compare him to Hitler? I think what most of us remember Hitler for is the murder of perhaps more than 10 million civilians, not the reclamation of the Sudentenland. Annexing a territory because there are people there who speak your language is, as you said, something that belongs in the 19th century, but it was not something even remotely unique to Hitler, or even fascist nations, nor was it by any means the most important thing about him. In fact, if that's all that Hitler wanted, we might not have had much of a World War II.
So no. I can absolutely not see the comparison as valid.
So no. I can absolutely not see the comparison as valid.
Mader Levap
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I disagree. Differences that you mentioned sums up to "neo-Nazis can't just murder up lotsa of people". It is because they would not get away with it, not because neo-Nazis are so nice.
These comparisons are inevitable. Even excuses and tactics (protection of
Frankly speaking, I use our all-time favourite moustached villain only because more fitting "Stalin!!!11oneone" is ineffective, as many russians consider him positive figure, not murderous loony dictator he was. But that madness is different topic...
Everything still can happen, you know. It is not over. Assuming rumours about Putin's health are false, he has about 30 years of life to deserve "second Stalin" moniker.
I think you are mistaken
Syriza is not the Golden Dawn (whose members have violently attacked people they don't like). UKIP is not the BNP or EDL (which have violent racists in their ranks, and which is in line with their philosophies). I don't know so much about the US, but UKIP is more like the Tea Party than the KKK - who have a significant overlap with neo-Nazis.
ETA: or this:
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I agree, however annexing territory because they speak his languague is where the comparison between the two men begins, not where it ends. Both usurped power from a somewhat democratic state and replaced it with a cult of personality. Both relied on economic gains during the first few years to maintain that popularity. Both speak of a fight against decadent western values, whom they reject completely in favor of their national traditionalisms, which they view as inherently superior. Both view their nation as inherently different, exceptional. These aren't trivial comparisons, all of them were important part of Nazi mythology and all of them were major contributors to what it eventually became.
The only major aspect that is indeed missing from Putler's Russia (for now anyway) is racial superiority.
Putin isn't Hitler. But he is uncomfortably similar to him on most key aspects.
McHrozni
Well, yes, I do consider that aspect rather important. If Germany rejected Hitler completely in 1934, the world would turn out differently. They didn't though. Nor did Russia reject Putler when it had the chance, even though he's putting them up for something similar down the line.
That's why you need to look broader than mere neo-Nazi and someone who isn't a Nazi per se, but is similar to Nazis on key points can be rightfully compared to them.
Yes, I agree, Hitler is just a dictator of convenience. I confess to that sin myself
It's still a sensible comparison.
McHrozni
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
I think this is an extremely naive reading of history, and of human nature. Humanity didn't make a quantum leap forward in morality on January 1, 2001. The motivations and tools of nationalism weren't extinguished like guttering flames at the end of their fuel, just because we flipped a page--or a ream of pages--on Pope Gregory's calendar.
The strategy has just as much place now as then, in human hearts and human statecraft. Nations today are composed of humans no more morally advanced or ethically evolved than humans a hundred years ago, even if the world we inhabit sometimes makes certain trade-offs and outcomes more accessible than they were for our predecessors.
Ziggurat
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It is a naive reading of history, but on the other hand, an switch DID flip. It's just that what that switch was isn't commonly recognized, and certainly doesn't have anything to do with decimal rollover on a calendar.
This was the switch.
That switch cemented American global hegemony, and created Pax Americana in much (but not all) of the world. Things did change, quite a bit and often for the better, as a result of that switch.
But as you pointed out, human nature didn't change. And Pax Americana, though widespread, was never universal. Globalization has meant more and more contact with places it doesn't hold.
No, it didn't, but that wasn't my claim by any stretch of imagination.
The pages were flipped somewhere around 1945, or shortly thereafter, as a result of a particularly bloody war that followed on the heels of another particularly bloody war, and the use of by far the most destructive weapons in history of mankind.
There was no magic involved. Just a stark realization things can't go on like this any more. Funnily enough, Putler comes from a city that suffered terribly, even compared to the rest of his country - which also suffered terribly, but wasn't changed by that. He's a psychopath, most like, and not a smart one at that. It's a very dangerous combination.
McHrozni
Ziggurat
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Putin is definitely dangerous. He might be a psychopath, no way to tell for sure from here. But not smart? No, Putin is definitely smart. You don't climb to the top of that bloody pile by being stupid.
The problem for us, though, is that being smart doesn't guarantee that he won't make mistakes, or that we'll be able to understand what he's doing. He might be acting on bad information, or under constraints and pressures that we can't see from here. So there's an element of unpredictability to his actions that you also get with stupid people, but it's not because he's stupid, it's because Putin and the west are operating with different sets of information.
dellarte
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Why Does The Middle East Have Straight Line Borders?!
"Drawing the Middle East’s modern borders on a map with a ruler certainly seemed simple. Perhaps that’s why the lines, set in 1916 by Englishman Sir Mark Sykes and Frenchman Francois Georges-Picot were straight ones. The infamous Sykes-Picot Agreement was a pact between Great Britain and France, in the middle of World War I (with Russia’s blessing). With it, they planned to completely dismember the Ottoman Empire. It led to the division of the Turkish-held Middle East into 5 French and British-administered countries – today’s Syria, Lebanon, Israel (then called Palestine), Jordan and Iraq. During World War I, the Turks had sided with Germany and Austria-Hungary and basically faced a war on three fronts."
For real?
"Drawing the Middle East’s modern borders on a map with a ruler certainly seemed simple. Perhaps that’s why the lines, set in 1916 by Englishman Sir Mark Sykes and Frenchman Francois Georges-Picot were straight ones. The infamous Sykes-Picot Agreement was a pact between Great Britain and France, in the middle of World War I (with Russia’s blessing). With it, they planned to completely dismember the Ottoman Empire. It led to the division of the Turkish-held Middle East into 5 French and British-administered countries – today’s Syria, Lebanon, Israel (then called Palestine), Jordan and Iraq. During World War I, the Turks had sided with Germany and Austria-Hungary and basically faced a war on three fronts."
For real?
dellarte
Illuminator
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The Weakness Of The Despot
"What we have today in Russia is not some kind of surprise. It’s not some kind of deviation from a historical pattern. Way before NATO existed—in the nineteenth century—Russia looked like this: it had an autocrat. It had repression. It had militarism. It had suspicion of foreigners and the West. This is a Russia that we know, and it’s not a Russia that arrived yesterday or in the nineteen-nineties. It’s not a response to the actions of the West. There are internal processes in Russia that account for where we are today."
[My highlight of agreement overlap.]
"What we have today in Russia is not some kind of surprise. It’s not some kind of deviation from a historical pattern. Way before NATO existed—in the nineteenth century—Russia looked like this: it had an autocrat. It had repression. It had militarism. It had suspicion of foreigners and the West. This is a Russia that we know, and it’s not a Russia that arrived yesterday or in the nineteen-nineties. It’s not a response to the actions of the West. There are internal processes in Russia that account for where we are today."
[My highlight of agreement overlap.]
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Well, a fascist country invades it's much smaller and weaker non-fascist neighbour and is increasingly using terror tactics against the civilians to force its victim to surrender. What wrong could there be in that? Totally ok, fine and dandy, naturally.
Silly Green Monkey
Cowardly Lurking in the Shadows of Greatness
Yeah. If lines on maps matter to people, then they should abide by them. Incidentally, at the time of that post, I had cancer and didn't know it yet. Always weird to see a Before timestamp.
The Great Zaganza
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If Russia is more fascist than Ukraine (which is objectively is), then any invasion will put more, not fewer fascists into the country.
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
The first page of this thread sure did age like milk.
EaglePuncher
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dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
If you need to ask the original question, given the last three weeks, you should resign from the Human Race.