What's wrong with saying "we don't know"?

So anyone who describes Homer Simpson as a fat, bald guy is simply mistaken.

This kind of philosophical pedantry from people who insist they're trying to siphon the nonsense out of the conversation really makes me laugh.

Baldness is an example of a sorites paradox. This is not.

"I don't know" and "I don't know, and I don't care" both answer the question, but you won't accept the answers. The first comes from an agnostic. The second comes from an apatheist. Neither of these people are an atheist or a theist from where I sit.

"It's possible" is also an answer. Moby7 says that makes one an atheist. I disagree. Ridicule away.

RANT! Oh, you're not getting ridicule from me this time you dishonest ass. I didn't think that quote sounded like something I'd write, so I followed the link and lo and behold! - It wasn't something I had written. Now, just because you can't understand the difference between 'knowledge' and 'belief' doesn't mean that there isn't a difference, and yes, you don't understand the difference between knowledge and belief or else you wouldn't think that "I don't know," is an appropriate answer to the question, "Do you believe in 'x'?" If the question was, "Do you know that 'x' exists?" then you'd have a point, but it isn't and you don't. I hope that when you finally dismount from your high-horse you land in a blackberry bush. Don't alter what I've said in quotes, and don't project your inability to understand basic concepts onto everyone else.
 
Any theologian would say there is no difference, that if God is possible then God exists.

Possibly they would. But then any theologian would be wrong.

ETA: Also, it may well be that god is impossible (under a given definition). That wouldn't speak to my ability to know that god is impossible.
 
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Oh, you're not getting ridicule from me this time you dishonest ass. I didn't think that quote sounded like something I'd write, so I followed the link and lo and behold! - It wasn't something I had written.
I've fixed the link. My computer hiccupped, and the cut & paste from an earlier post got pasted into my reply to thaiboxerken. I wasn't responding to your post, and it wasn't my intention to put thaiboxerken's words in your mouth. Sorry.

So, do YOU believe I'm wearing a pair of warm socks?
 
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No.
Because I have no evidence.

It's possible that you are wearing warm sox, but I don't belive because I have no reason to.
Okay.

Do you believe I wore a warm pair of socks earlier today?

Earlier this week?

Earlier this month?

Earlier this year?

Do you believe I've ever worn a warm pair of socks?
 
Okay.

Do you believe I wore a warm pair of socks earlier today?

Earlier this week?

Earlier this month?

Earlier this year?

Do you believe I've ever worn a warm pair of socks?

No. No. No. No. Yes.

but I could be wrong

I absolutely do not believe any gods exist, but it's possible that I'm wrong.
 
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So you believe I wore a warm pair of socks some time prior to January first, but I removed them and have been sockless ever since.

When do you believe I removed my socks?
 
I've fixed the link. My computer hiccupped, and the cut & paste from an earlier post got pasted into my reply to thaiboxerken. I wasn't responding to your post, and it wasn't my intention to put thaiboxerken's words in your mouth. Sorry.

Apology accepted.

So, do YOU believe I'm wearing a pair of warm socks?

No. I have no evidence that would suggest you are wearing a warm pair of socks.

If you were to tell me that you are, in fact, wearing a warm pair of sock I would probably believe you. This is because 'warm socks' are well established to exist, and so are you. If you told me that you were wearing a Jabberwocky skull on your head, I would not believe you without further evidence, because Jabberwockies have not been shown to exist.

Also, in regards to the notion of defining god - I earlier stated that I would accept anyone who sincerely believed in their definition of god regardless of what that definition is. I came to that conclusion based upon the widely varying definitions of god that exist already.

I have changed my mind in regards to that idea. Instead I would now suggest that there are a few restrictions on what can be classed as a god in the theistic sense. I'm still trying to work through it all, but I would at this stage suggest two criteria: It must be conscious, and it must be supernatural or capable of supernatural feats.

I am aware that this would mean that certain uses of god currently (such as Spinoza's idea of god) would not be classed as gods. This doesn't particularly faze me, as such ideas of god are that it is merely a supernatural mechanism (like a machine), and in such cases it seems that the label 'god' has been slapped on without justification. It would also rule out the simple relabelling of already known objects such as 'cheese' as being god.
 
Possibly they would. But then any theologian would be wrong.
I think you will find that they are quite right.

God is supposed to have created everything, right?

So if God did not exist and something else did then how would God be possible? Any being that subsequently came into existence, no matter how powerful, would not be God.

The only way for God to be possible is for God to exist.
ETA: Also, it may well be that god is impossible (under a given definition). That wouldn't speak to my ability to know that god is impossible.
Then you have to distinguish between saying "God is possible" and "I do not know that God is impossible". Some people use them as though they meant the same thing.
 
If this is true, then theologians are morons.
Theologians are morons, but the statement is true nonetheless.

If God did not exist then how would God be possible? Even if some super-powerful being came into existence with ostensibly god-like powers it would not be God, by definition, because there would always be something it did not create.
 
The Big Bang Theory Of Creation Is A MYTH . . .

Hi AudioFreak:

One of the biggest topics in these debates between believers and non-believers is on the origin of the universe. If the model of the universe that I'm often seeing presented by believers is correct, you're merely looking at adding another layer to the onion when you say "God made the universe." It doesn't answer the question because you then must ask "where did God come from?" to which we're usually told something along the lines of how we're not meant to understand or how our human minds can't fathom God.


The “Big Bang Theory Of Creation” is a MYTH, which means ‘your model’ is based upon mere human fantasy, which is the same reason human beings cannot reconcile Quantum Physics with the Theory of Relativity. The Big Bang that took place about 13.7 Billion years ago DID NOT mark the beginning of Creation, but represents the END of a previously existing Singularity Expression Universe that included no angels and no men; because during the prefect Genesis 1:1 ages they were the ‘same thing.’ There was no such thing as the heavens or the earth or ‘heaven’ (Gen 1:8), because they too were bound up inside a Singularity Expression Universe represented by this diagram. In the beginning God (left) created the Heaven (Word) and the Earth (Creation/Adam) with these ‘three’ Singularity Expressions having this ‘triune’ relationship throughout all the perfect ages of Genesis 1:1. Do you see any Father, or Son or Holy Spirit contained by “The Word” of John 1:2? No. Why? They are all the SAME THING bound up in “The Word” as a Singularity Expression, just like “The Earth” contains the heavens, heaven and earth shown here.

Now you can see the Father, Son and Holy Spirit testifying for “The Word” and the heavens, heaven and earth testifying for this Adamic Universe that was destroyed at the Big Bang to ‘now’ have this triune ‘image of a man’ image. However, your Quantum and Relativity calculations are based upon only ‘the earth’ (water witness) side of the equation without the realization that we have ‘two’ unseen realms ‘also’ testifying about “The Earth” (Gen 1:1) representing our entire universe. Your problem is that ‘only’ the blood witness realms are ‘real’ with the spirit and water witness counterparts eventually being ‘summed up’ inside the enlarging ‘only begotten’ witnesses (diagram) on their way to becoming the Original Singularity Expression of Genesis 1:1.

You have been living in a dream world, Neo, and the answer all along has been to take the red pill. :0)

GL,

Terral
 
I think you will find that they are quite right.

God is supposed to have created everything, right?

So if God did not exist and something else did then how would God be possible? Any being that subsequently came into existence, no matter how powerful, would not be God.

The only way for God to be possible is for God to exist.

Then you have to distinguish between saying "God is possible" and "I do not know that God is impossible". Some people use them as though they meant the same thing.
Theologians are morons, but the statement is true nonetheless.

If God did not exist then how would God be possible? Even if some super-powerful being came into existence with ostensibly god-like powers it would not be God, by definition, because there would always be something it did not create.

Your position requires that god be the creator of everything else. That is not a necessary requirement for a god - Dionysus, for example, is a god in the Greek pantheon, but was not a creator god. Neither is Shiva in the Hindu religion.
 
Also, on my earlier comment re defining what is and isn't a god:

I'm in no way married to the idea I put forward - it's just one that was floating around my head, and it clearly needs some further thought and refining. However, I maintain that the primary issue here lies not in the labels 'atheist' or 'theist', but instead in the definition of god. That's the issue I'm trying to tackle at the moment...
 
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The quote tool is not operating properly so I will do this manually!

Finer points for Radrook,

I don't think that you truly understand atheism. Atheism is a lack of belief in a god or gods. Agnosticism is a subset of atheism that leaves more of a possibility for a god or gods


The atheism I am addressing is one which is total disbelief in God. If it doesn't represent you or the majority OK. But that's the atheism I am addressing.



]Radrook said in post #159: "Actually, I find the atheistic position far more illogical since a PURELY atheistic position claims a knowledge of regions never detected, To me that comes across as far more illogical because Christians are basing their claims on things observed as applying it to things observed in our observable universe-cause and effect-for example."

TeslaPRG: Where do you get this from? Christians base their claims on faith (an emotion) in an ancient and completely flawed text handed down over nearly two millennia miscopied, translated, interpreted and originally written from hearsay with no eye witness testimony. Christians do not make their claims on cause and effect observation. I think you must be confused about Christianity.

No, the confusion is yours due to unfamiliarity with Christianity.

1. Christian belief in a creator isn't based solely on blind unreasoning faith. Read Romans chapter two.

2.There were eyewitnesses to many of the events but you choose to reject them as false.

3. The Bible has come down to us with its essential message intact.


Radrook said in post #159 "What makes a claim wild is its total disregard for evidence to support it. "

TeslaPRG: Disregard for the evidence? What evidence? What actually makes a claim wild is in it's appeal to the supernatural with no evidence to support it! The case for a god has not one shred of evidence. None. Thus it is a very, very, very wild claim.

Disregard for the presentation of evidence to support your atheist claim be it total or probabilistic. God doesn't exist?-where is your evidence to prove it?

Radrook said in post#159 "If you aren't sure and admit you don't know-then according to the strict definition and in my eyes, at least, you are an agnostic. Not that you have to agree-of course."

TeslaPRG: Once again this is a question of the depth of your understanding in this issue. Atheism makes no claims about god other than;

No proof.
No need.
No God.

Good enough for me!

Paul

This is not a claim of knowledge it is a position based on the lack of any evidence. The time to believe (faith) or even entertain an idea is when evidence is provided and not a nanosecond sooner.

So is the position of rejecting your nonexistence of God claim. I can reject that claim from my agnostic stance based on your total lack of evidence to prove it. God. I can say-"Well, I don't know because I have no evidence one way or the other, so how is it that you are so sure that you know?" Then what?
 
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Ok, Rad, since you insist that your definition of atheist is the only one that matters...

What would you call a person that simply doesn't believe in any gods?

I didn't say it was the only one that matters. Obviously the other definitions matter to you and others on this forum. Actually, they matter to me as well. But I am more interested in the atheism which broaches no possibility of God. This of course assumes that the person would automatically reject all concepts of gods. But from a Christian standpoint and for discussion purposes I'd like to keep it restricted to the concept of God as biblically described.

It prevents the shifting of ground into nebulous areas when everything else fails. It also prevents the deployment of hard to define-or impossible to comprehend self-contradictory statements which nonchallantly defy logic.
 
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Sorry to butt in again over this issue of what is and is not god.......

Of course, it depends critically what one defines as god. But there is a further dimension left unspoken and that is the relation that one takes to that definition (not merely the knowledge or belief about it).

We can easily define god as the totality of all being, or the universe in other parlance.

Whether one views this as god depends a bit on one's feeling about that 'entity'. We think of god as one deserving reverence, and folks who call 'totality' God often do so to convey a reverential attitude towards it. That has always been the way Martin Gardner's approach seemed to me. Same with Sagan (if it is proper to call him a 'believer') and Einstein.

So, it may not be so much an issue of belief or knowledge, but of feeling toward a particular type of belief/knowledge.
 
I'm in no way married to the idea I put forward - it's just one that was floating around my head, and it clearly needs some further thought and refining. However, I maintain that the primary issue here lies not in the labels 'atheist' or 'theist', but instead in the definition of god. That's the issue I'm trying to tackle at the moment...
That's kind of the point I was trying to make with my questions about my socks.

We're so used to thinking of "god" as some minor variation of the all-good all-powerful all-knowing invention which is impossible to reconcile with reality that it seems easy to reject the possibility of god's existence and settle comfortably into calling ourselves atheists.

I (and I suspect a lot of people) am (are) only comfortable claiming that label in relation to a specific definition of god. If you'll define what "god" is, I'm more likely to be able to tell you whether or not that's something I "believe."

"Atheist" is an extreme position -- "I don't believe in ANY definition of god." Even if you add "because I have no evidence," and leave open the possibility of belief if such evidence becomes available, you're implicitly rejecting a lot of potential definitions for which "existence" is well-supported by evidence. What if god is gravity, or consciousness, or life itself, or the whole cosmos? Then the question is not so much whether such things exist, but whether it is meaningful to attach labels like "god" to them.

"Theist" is also an extreme position. "Belief" implies something. If you believe I'm wearing a warm pair of socks, you leave yourself open to a whole host of questions (When did I don them? What color are they? Wool, synthetic, or other? Thick or thin?) for which the only honest answer is "I don't know." I claim that "I don't know" is actually the more honest answer to the first question, and that "No" leaves you open to an equally problematic set of questions which will ultimately have you saying "I don't know" in answer to a question about belief, not as an evasion, but as the most honest answer you can give.

Words are just fuzzy placeholders we can use to convey meaning. If Tom has in mind some concept of a deity, and thinks "theist" (or deist, or pantheist, or monotheist) is the most honest way to describe himself, Harry has no right, in my opinion, to claim he's not a real theist just because Harry's own concept of a deity differs from Tom's.

If belief was an absolute thing (you either believe, or you don't), then our courts wouldn't have different standards for it -- "belief beyond a reasonable doubt" vs "belief based on a preponderance of the evidence," for instance.

There are believers, and there are non-believers, and there are people who don't feel themselves pulled strongly enough in either direction to adopt either label. I think it's more meaningful to let them speak for themselves and listen to what they're saying than it is to insist that they're talking nonsense based on some hard-line definitions we picked up in a philosophy class. Certainly, it's more productive.

But I'm willing to continue discussing it, if you're willing to tell me what you believe about my warm socks.
 
If Bokonon wants to be a silly ass, he is welcome. But his silliness is not an argument against my position - indeed, I have yet to see a person actually address my argument! I would welcome criticism, if only it would take a form other than the logical fallacies appeal to popularity and appeal to authority. Alas, so far this has not been the case.

Well semantically and philosophically I prefer your concept and it certainly seems the prevailing one here, and among people who name themselves atheists.

But I will make an argument from practicality. Many people simply don't understand the nuances, even many new atheists do not.

So I do hold my nose and describe myself as agnostic on occasion because in vulgar usage agnostic is closer to the thing I am trying to describe. "a theos" is more specific than a general "a gnostos", but the word atheist means something more like 'hates god' or 'satan worshiper' to all too many people. And before you say 'well that person would never listen anyway' I will tell you from experience that is not always true. Sometimes you can reach them.

In some situations it just doesn't help to lead with 'atheist' when you know that's going to close their mind right away. There's always time to explain the subtleties later.
 
Sorry to butt in again over this issue of what is and is not god.......

Of course, it depends critically what one defines as god. But there is a further dimension left unspoken and that is the relation that one takes to that definition (not merely the knowledge or belief about it).

We can easily define god as the totality of all being, or the universe in other parlance.

Whether one views this as god depends a bit on one's feeling about that 'entity'. We think of god as one deserving reverence, and folks who call 'totality' God often do so to convey a reverential attitude towards it. That has always been the way Martin Gardner's approach seemed to me. Same with Sagan (if it is proper to call him a 'believer') and Einstein.

So, it may not be so much an issue of belief or knowledge, but of feeling toward a particular type of belief/knowledge.


Basically what I've been saying. What is "God" and should it be worshiped?

Some of the descriptions of the christian God are the "alpha and omega" and that this entity is omnipresent. In this sense their God matches your definition:

We can easily define god as the totality of all being, or the universe in other parlance.

If thats the definition then this whole discussion is all rather pointless and we should move on to more productive and less nonsensical topics.
 

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