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Moderated What's wrong with porn?

Sorry - I didn't phrase my question very well. I meant to ask who is the custodian of the principles etched in the consitutional epitaph.

The people and government of the USA.


It's my response to your question. I'm sorry if you don't like or agree with it.

It's not that I don't like or agree with it, it's that it isn't an answer. Why won't you answer the question?


Yes and yes. Is that simple enough?

And that justification is?


How long have you got?

As long as it takes.


I agree. Sorry - I missed the "unjust" bit before. :rolleyes:

No you didn't. You just appear to have no ability whatsoever to perceive an argument from someone else's point of view. Which is why your productive contribution to this discussion thus far has been zero.


Go ahead - assume.

To be fair I was actually being sarcastic.


You mean if a child molester has sought to obtain a copy of such image and whilst pondering it he's babysitting his neighbour's 4-year-old daughter? Or are you asking in a different context?

What has a baby-sitting child molester got to do with drawing a picture? Are you seriously suggesting the above argument is a solid and legitimate argument in favour of your position? Are you truly incapable of seeing how utterly stupid such an argument is, and how deeply flawed?

One might as well ban cars on account of them being used in bank robberies... (actually that's not a complete comparison as the car would actually be directly enabling the crime where as the Lisa Simpson picture wouldn't actually be directly used for the child molestation at all).
 
Well you do seem to like to bring it into discussion when it has absolutely no relevance, such as in response to this, for example:

Wow... not relevant huh?

Excuse me while I join my esteemed colleagues.

*headdesk*
 
Well, by your limited definition of "involves" it doesn't. But as soon as youone thinks outside the box ...

Limited? I gave you the complete frikken dictionary definition of the word. FOURTEEN of them.

Excuse me while I slam my head into my desk repeatedly.
 
Limited? I gave you the complete frikken dictionary definition of the word. FOURTEEN of them.

Excuse me while I slam my head into my desk repeatedly.

:D I think SW should be banned. After all he IS causing people harm themselves (heads banging against desks can't be good for the noggin')....

Since I feel a enough people are harmed by him, and the power of his annoyance is too strong to resist, I think it would be best for the forum to ban him completely before he causes more damage to members!


Err...isn't that his stance on VCP? :)
 
But "maybe" is a strong enough basis for countless critical decisions that you make every day of your life? :rolleyes:


Well the "critical" decisions I make every day don't permanently affect the lives of millions upon millions of people in serious and potentially devastating ways, so my standards for decision making aren't quite as robust as a government's.

Were I in such a position you can be damn sure "maybe" would not be enough for me.

"Hey... maybe there's weapons of mass destruction in Iraq..."


That's beside the point.

No it's not. It's entirely and fundamentally the point.


I doubt that anybody here would disagree with this. Shame it's a straw man argument.

I'm not the one who introduced the chocolate example so don't whine to me about it.


Certainly a minority. "Tiny"? Not so sure. Regardless, a large absolute number.

In a population as large as say, the USA, every group is a large absolute number. It's a meaningless distinction. There's 400,000 registered child molesters in the USA - that's about 0.1% of the population. I consider that a "tiny minority".


It does if the cost to society of such ban justifies the benefit. These so-called "Manga" readers - what sort of a "tiny minority" are you "pretty confident" they form, compared to child molesters?

I couldn't be sure how popular it is worldwide, but I do know for a fact that lolicon is quite popular in Japan. Naturally I would be most familiar with my own country but lolicon (and similar) is banned in my country.


Citation please, including details and statistics.

Is that really necessary? Child molestation has existed forever. Child pornography has not. Ergo, child molestation will occur independent of child pornography existing.


WOW!!! Even if it was your child that was molested as a result, or if it had been you molested as a child as a result?

No, it wouldn't change my opinion. A person is responsible for their own actions. Nothing makes them commit crimes.


"Drive dangerously and try outrun [sic] police" vs child molestation? Let me ponder this one for a while ... :rolleyes:

Their both examples of criminal activity that is supposedly inspired by partaking or enjoying virtual representations of said same activity.


Even in relation to 2-year old kids, for example, it seems!

There you go again with your incredible ability to completely fail at following the discussion. Two year old children can't be child molesters so there's no issue with them being responsible for their own actions, is there?


That just has to be probably the most ill-considered post in this thread yet (but certainly not by a long shot!). Please tell me there's a nomination button for that somewhere!

Howso?
 
Gumboot, I'll answer this because you feel it hasn't adequately been answered. I realize that perhaps you haven't participated in the entire conversation and as such my earlier answers to this may have been missed.

No, I saw your answer. Thanks for taking the time to address it again, but as we shall see, you yet again failed to answer it. This is mind boggling. My question is incredibly simple. Answering it should take a single sentence. Why is it neither of you has been able to answer the question?


Draw the cartoon.

How does me drawing the picture address the question? Are you suggesting the only way to determine if it involves a child is to actually draw it? C'mon, you're smarter than that.


Draw as many cartoons as you want. No one is telling you that you can't (or at least I am not, and I don't think the law is either, as it stands now).

It's illegal in my country because it's considered child pornography.


It doesn't become pornography (a consumer product) until you distribute it, and at that point, you are injecting your thought and the product of that thought into the economy, society as a whole. And economy, by the way (child pornography) that brings in billions of dollars every year at the expense of children.

Actually if we're talking about the USA, it never becomes pornography. Virtual child porn is not considered pornography in the USA. It can be considered obscene, and banned on those grounds, but obscenity is a totally separate issue to pornography, and anything could potentially be considered obscene, regardless of whether it involves sex or not.

In countries where such images are considered child pornography, they are illegal (such as New Zealand and the State of Victoria, Australia).


At *that* point, society, government has a right to intervene if it deems that there is something dangerous to our society in that content. It's like being fascinated with guns and wanting to collect them all, but our government places restrictions on that, the buying and selling of guns, because of the nature of the item. Or...weapons in general. The laws vary, but in many places, buying certain lengths of blades is illegal, or carrying certain lengths is illegal, even though shorter lengthed blades could potentially also cause harm. A limit is set. Do you feel sorry for gun owners who cannot purchases sawed off shotguns or fully automatic weapons? Or do you think there's no legitimate reason for them to have them? In other words, do *your* thoughts and government's opinions trump the thoughts of the few.

That's all very interesting yet doesn't pertain to the question.


I don't know how to answer your question other than that.

Jesus wept, why is this so hard?

One of you (I don't recall which) claimed that virtual child pornography involved children. In response to this I presented an example of virtual child pornography, and asked you to demonstrate where exactly the involvement of the child was.

Answering this question is very simple. That neither of you have managed to do so is mind boggling. Here's how an answer might look:

1) You're right, it doesn't involve a child after all, I was wrong, and retract my earlier claim.

OR

2) A child is involved in the following way.........................

Why is this so hard?


There seems to be some massive disconnect going here simply because the subject matter is pornography. A disconnect, I use that term, because it seems that the same standards and feelings regarding free speech and expression and right to privacy doesn't exist when it comes to less popular notions such as guns, religious expression, illegal drugs, what have you.

I'm curious to see how you make sense of this nonsense...


Do you consider it restricting freedom of thought if a male business owner only wants to hire men because he doesn't believe men and women should work together?

Freedom of thought?

That's not restricting freedom of thought at all. I don't think it's actually practically possible to restrict freedom of thought. What are you on about?


I'm willing to guess that you do not, and you would call that discrimination.

That's because it is.


Laws against discrimination are what if not policing personal thought. We say "you can *think* what you want, but in our society, you must *act* or *do* this". Nobody gripes about that here do they?

You've just explained yourself how they're not policing personal thought. They don't police thought at all. They police action.

Serious question... do you actually think about what you write, or do you just hit the keyboard?


Same principle. Same exact principle.

I cannot think of even the most vague and wishy-washy way that anti-discrimination law could have any relevance or bearing on anti-obscenity law.

In the above discrimination case a person is directly harming others by preventing them from equal opportunity employment.

In the case of the virtual pornographer they are not causing any harm to anyone at all.
 
Serious question... do you actually think about what you write, or do you just hit the keyboard?

Resorting to this says what, gumboot? If I were to say something like this to you during this discussion, you would say that I resorted to insults because I lacked anything of substance.

Yes, I'm the emotional one alright.
 
Resorting to this says what, gumboot? If I were to say something like this to you during this discussion, you would say that I resorted to insults because I lacked anything of substance.

Yes, I'm the emotional one alright.



I was actually quite serious. You were talking about laws restricting a person performing an action (discriminating against potential staff based on gender) and then tried to claim it was "restriction on thought" yet then in the very same paragraph you directly contradicted this and said laws allowed you to think what ever you wanted, but restricted what you could do.

There's no way anyone who understands what they're writing could possibly think that this argument is logical. It is, in fact, directly self contradicting.

Either laws restrict thought, or they allow you to think anything you like. They can't do both.
 
I'm amazed, almost fifty pages - this thing is just running along likkety-split!!!

Wonder if it will make a hundred with nothing yet decided!!
 
I'm amazed, almost fifty pages - this thing is just running along likkety-split!!!

Wonder if it will make a hundred with nothing yet decided!!

Hey, the other thread about porn we were involved in where nothing was decided made it to about 80 pages I believe. :)
 
Yeah Dann was taking on SW's role in that one.

This thread has been pretty boring to read IMHO. I just can't seem to get excited about this one enough to really participate.
 
Yeah Dann was taking on SW's role in that one.

This thread has been pretty boring to read IMHO. I just can't seem to get excited about this one enough to really participate.

Awww, I missed you NewtonTrino.

Doncha wanna be expunged with the rest of us?

:D
 
Here's what I consider to be a draft workable definition of child pornography (both real and virtual!) intended to address physical, psychological and emotional harm to children (and affected adults!) whilst at the same time protecting innocent people involved in or connected with expressions involving children, set (highlighted) within the context in which I believe it should be criminalized. You will note that it excludes the scenario whereby a person creates tangible expressions for their sole, private use, which, I agree, is merely an expression of thought with no reasonably possible causative link to the harm of children beyond such thoughts. The focus on pre-pubescents is in acknowledgement that pubescents, even if still legally minors, are generally not reasonably distinguishable from adults. This definition and context should sit alongside whatever laws exist (or should exist!) addressing the specific preclusion of involvement of minors (applicable legal definition) in the actual production of child pornography:

"The attempted or actual solicitation or obtaining (or facilitation thereof) by a person from another/others, or the creation, generation, production, promotion, advertizing, storage, handling, distribution, display, sale or provision (or facilitation therof) by a person to another/others of verbal or visual expressions of pre-pubescent persons, the nature and composition of which, either wholly or partially, is clearly intended, or will or is likely to appeal, to the prurient nature of the average person of the appropriate gender(s). For the avoidance of doubt verbal or visual expressions of pre-pubescent persons in combination with pubescent persons involving deliberate, non-incidental physical skin-to-skin contact of or clear and specific focus on genitalia or anal areas shall be deemed to constitute child pornography."

OK all you cynics out there - feel free to take your potshots - let's see if it needs refining!
 
For the avoidance of doubt verbal or visual expressions of pre-pubescent persons in combination with pubescent persons involving deliberate, non-incidental physical skin-to-skin contact of or clear and specific focus on genitalia or anal areas shall be deemed to constitute child pornography."

Gasp....No more Aristocrats
 
For one thing, I don't think any child porn is "intended to appeal to the prurient nature of the average person".
You're correct, of course, my mistake. Let's try:

"The attempted or actual solicitation or obtaining (or facilitation thereof) by a person from another/others, or the creation, generation, production, promotion, advertizing, storage, handling, distribution, display, sale or provision (or facilitation therof) by a person to another/others of verbal or visual expressions of pre-pubescent persons, the nature and composition of which, either wholly or partially, is clearly intended, or will or is likely to appeal, to the prurient nature of certain people of the appropriate gender(s). For the avoidance of doubt verbal or visual expressions of pre-pubescent persons in combination with pubescent persons involving deliberate, non-incidental physical skin-to-skin contact of or clear and specific focus on genitalia or anal areas shall be deemed to constitute child pornography."
 

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