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Moderated What's wrong with porn?

No need. :) I knew that. The point is that he still was able to take something that really didn't mean anything and turn it into a reason to kill. He could've done that to any song, any movie. It was his choice to twist it the way he wanted to.


You know, I misspoke. It really isn't that much of a derail at all.

The condemnation of the song as a causative factor in the Manson killings was nearly universal among the usual suspects, even though there was no particular reason to assume that to be true.

That's pretty much what we're talking about.
 
Here's the illusion:

http://media.photobucket.com/image/recent/pizzler/doublepicillusion.jpg

The scary thing for me is that I actually saw the dolphins first! :D Took a minute to see the humans.

I don't know if this is a test of how sexual one thinks because I believe it really depends on whether someone perceives the black as background or foreground first.

Were they pre-adolescent dolphins? Are you a closet dolphin pedophile?
To paraphrase another poster on this forum, perhaps you have a mental problem?
I warn you sir. You're close to the edge on this!!! :):)
 
The scary thing for me is that I actually saw the dolphins first! :biggrin: Took a minute to see the humans.
It does sound like you have a problem, and the bottle is even clearer with the couple than the drawing I remember. I recommend you get help from your wife.:)

That category of optical illusion can be tricky, and pretty arbitrary in which one you see first.
 
Do you see the problems with this wonderfully thought-through hypothetical (I've highlighted them)? I'll spell them out to you:
No. A video tape showing a crime leaves no question that the crime has been commited. Experts tell us the likelyhood of a chronic sex offender reoffending is high. There is a basis for the hypo but there doesn't need to be. It's a logically valid hypo.

If there are valid bases why was there a need to "illegally break into" the premises? Why not simply obtain a warrant and arrest the guy in the "normal" manner?
That's not the point. It happens. Evidence is thrown out.

The question is simple. Are we willing to do anything and everything to protect children?
 
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Were they pre-adolescent dolphins? Are you a closet dolphin pedophile?
To paraphrase another poster on this forum, perhaps you have a mental problem?
I warn you sir. You're close to the edge on this!!! :):)

Well, I saw them as fairy dolphins. .....is that okay...?


:D
 
It does sound like you have a problem, and the bottle is even clearer with the couple than the drawing I remember. I recommend you get help from your wife.:)

That category of optical illusion can be tricky, and pretty arbitrary in which one you see first.

I just came back from Germany. So I spent the entire week letting her err...help me... :)
 
No. A video tape showing a crime leaves no question that the crime has been commited. Experts tell us the likelyhood of a chronic sex offender reoffending is high. There is a basis for the hypo but there doesn't need to be. It's a logically valid hypo.

That's not the point. It happens. Evidence is thrown out.

The question is simple. Are we willing to do anything and everything to protect children?

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."
 
The question is simple. Are we willing to do anything and everything to protect children?
No - the questions are:
  1. will you ever realize when you're committing the straw man fallacy?; and
  2. will you ever realize that absolutism is a tenuously unrealistic position to hold?
Your question above raises both.
 
No - the questions are:
No.

The question remains: Are we willing to do anything and everything to protect children? How about you? Would you jettison free speech in just this one instance (virtual child port) to protect children? Would you forgo other rights to protect children?
 
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It's kinda funny how much time and effort he took to attack a logicaly valid hypo. Which only goes to show the hypo hit a nerve.
It took about 10 seconds to spot the flaws and less effort than chuckling, which is what I did as I read it!

A video tape showing a crime leaves no question that the crime has been commited. Experts tell us the likelyhood of a chronic sex offender reoffending is high. [emphasis added]
Pardon me - I missed these subtle but important details in your "hypo". Hang on, I'll just read back to try to see whether it's my eyesight ...
 
It took about 10 seconds to spot the flaws...
Asserting something doesn't make it true. If I sound like a broken record then it's your fault. You can't seem to figure this bit out.

There are no flaws. It's a logicaly valid hypo.
 
The question remains: Are we willing to do anything and everything to protect children? How about you? Would you jettison free speech in just this one instance (virtual child port) to protect children? Would you forgo other rights to protect children?
Hang on RandFan - get a grip on reality here. You wrote "anything and everything". That's both a straw man and an absolutist position. You repeat it here, but then you check yourself by limiting it to "free speech", but then you expand it to the vague and meaningless "other rights".

What's it to be RandFan? What, exactly, is the question that you're asking me to answer? Honestly, I'm genuinely not sure. Please clarify.
 
What, exactly, is the question that you're asking me to answer?
What line would you not cross to protect children? You impugn me when I say that free speech rights are too important to dismiss because of a perception of a threat. I'm giving you a very real world scenario and asking if you would be willing to cross an ethical line to protect children? It's all very simple.

What rights will you forgo? I said anything and everything. Ok, narrow it down. Start telling us what you wouldn't do to protect children? Is there anything?
 
What's it to be RandFan? What, exactly, is the question that you're asking me to answer? Honestly, I'm genuinely not sure. Please clarify.
Thinking back, this is a bit dishonest because I did clarify.

Would you forgo other rights to protect children? Yes? No? Why didn't you just answer this question?
 
What line would you not cross to protect children? You impugn me when I say that free speech rights are too important to dismiss because of a perception of a threat. I'm giving you a very real world scenario and asking if you would be willing to cross an ethical line to protect children? It's all very simple.

What rights will you forgo? I said anything and everything. Ok, narrow it down. Start telling us what you wouldn't do to protect children? Is there anything?
There are a million and one scenarios, so only a general response is both possible and appropriate. Accordingly, I would do whatever I consider reasonable and necessary under the circumstances. I'm sorry if that disappoints, but it's unreasonable to expect me to be definitive for an almost infinite number of permutations. If you feel it necessary to present some scenarios for me to consider and respond to to try to narrow it down, be my guest, I like playing "Scruples".

But to come back to freedom of speech in particular, which seems to be your main impediment, as much as you seek to discredit the Meese Report (and I have to say, having read more critiques of it today it is, clearly, but generally, highly suspect to say the least), I do tend to agree with much of the rationale provided therein regarding obscenities and the First Amendment. In particular:

There are both less and more plausible challenges to the Supreme Court's approach to obscenity. Among the least plausible, and usually more rhetorical device than serious argument, is the view that the First Amendment is in some way an "absolute," protecting, quite simply, all speech. Even Justices Black and Douglas, commonly taken to be "absolutists," would hardly have protected all spoken or written acts under the First Amendment, and on closer inspection all those accused of or confessing to "absolutism" would at the very least apply their absolutism to a range of spoken or written acts smaller than the universe of all spoken, written or pictorial acts. This is not to deny that under the views of many, including Black and Douglas, what is now considered obscene should be within the universe of what is absolutely protected. But "absolutism" in unadulterated form seems largely a strawman, and we see no need to use it as a way of avoiding difficult questions.

Although we do not subscribe to the view that only political speech is covered by the First Amendment, we do not believe that a totally expansive approach is reasonable for society or conducive to preserving the particular values embodied in the First Amendment. The special power of the First Amendment ought, in our opinion, to be reserved for the conveying of arguments and information in a way that surpasses some admittedly low threshold of cognitive appeal, whether that appeal be emotive, intellectual, aesthetic, or informational. We have no doubt that this low threshold will be surpassed by a wide range of sexually explicit material conveying unpopular ideas about sex in a manner that is offensive to most people, and we accept that this is properly part of a vision of the First Amendment that is designed substantially to protect unpopular ways of saying unpopular things. But we also have little doubt that most of what we have seen that to us qualifies as hard-core material falls below this minimal threshold of cognitive or similar appeal. Lines are of course not always easy to draw, but we find it difficult to understand how much of the material we have seen can be considered to be even remotely related to an exchange of views in the marketplace of ideas, to an attempt to articulate a point of view, to an attempt to persuade, or to an attempt seriously to convey through literary or artistic means a different vision of humanity or of the world. We do not deny that in a different context and presented in a different way, material as explicit as that which we have seen could be said to contain at least some of all of these characteristics. But we also have no doubt that these goals are remote from the goals of virtually all distributors or users of this material, and we also have no doubt that these values are present in most standard pornographic items to an extraordinarily limited degree.

In light of this, we are of the opinion that not only society at large but the First Amendment itself suffers if the essential appeal of the First Amendment is dissipated on arguments related to material so tenuously associated with any of the purposes or principles of the First Amendment. We believe it necessary that the plausibility of the First Amendment be protected, and we believe it equally necessary for this society to ensure that the First Amendment retains the strength it must have when it is most needed. This strength cannot reside exclusively in the courts, but must reside as well in widespread acceptance of the importance of the First Amendment. We fear that this acceptance is jeopardized when the First Amendment too often becomes the rhetorical device by which the commercial trade in materials directed virtually exclusively at sexual arousal is defended. There is a risk that in that process public willingness to defend and to accept the First Amendment will be lost, and the likely losers will be those who would speak out harshly, provocatively, and often offensively against the prevailing order, including the prevailing order with respect to sex. The manner of presentation and distribution of most standard pornography confirms the view that at bottom the predominant use of such material is as a masturbatory aid. We do not say that there is anything necessarily wrong with that for that reason. But once the predominant use, and the appeal to that predominant use, becomes apparent, what emerges is that much of what this material involves is not so much portrayal of sex, or discussion of sex, but simply sex itself. As sex itself, the arguments for or against restriction are serious, but they are arguments properly removed from the First Amendment questions that surround primarily materials whose overwhelming use is not as a short-term masturbatory aid. Whether the state should, for example, prohibit masturbation in certain establishments that are open to the public is a question that some would wish to debate, but it is certainly not a First Amendment question. Similarly, the extent to which sex itself is and under what circumstances constitutionally protected is again an interesting and important constitutional question, but it is not usefully seen as a First Amendment question.[41]

We recognize, of course, that using a picture of sex as a masturbatory aid is different from the simple act of masturbation, or any other form of sex. The very fact that pictures and words are used compels us to take First Amendment arguments more seriously than would be the case if the debate were about prostitution. Still, when we look at the standard pornographic item in its standard context of distribution and use, we find it difficult to avoid the conclusion that this material is so far removed from any of the central purposes of the First Amendment, and so close to so much of the rest of the sex industry, that including such material within the coverage of the First Amendment seems highly attenuated. [emphasis added] (Meese Report - Section 3.3 Part Two : Chapter 3)

Now, I'm prepared to call a truce on the cat fighting, as I would genuinely welcome a civilised debate on the freedom of speech aspect, particularly the view quoted above, which I concur with. I will, however, feel compelled to continue to check you with your straw men and absolutism, and no doubt you'll do the same with my unproven assertions and causative links.

Your call.
 
More tea, vicar? (I'm sorry RandFan, but your increasing attempts to paint yourself as the White Knight to curry favour from those easily influenced is as insincere as it is nauseating. It's typical political vote trail tactics that anybody with a modicum of intelligence can see straight through like a cellophane rain mac, and you're insulting those to whom you direct it, whether they see it and/or are prepared to admit seeing it or not!).


Um...

Southwind17, since RandFan's comment was directed at me, then...

You've just insulted me (or attempted to, I'm not easily insulted). Why the need for this? If you think I am "easily influenced" or lack "a modicum of intelligence", or that I cannot see when someone is being condescending (ahem), just say it outright. I'm a big girl, I can take it.

Am I easily influenced? Sometimes...depends on the topic. Here, though? No. Not at all. Thus...the disagreements. Choosing to have disagreements politely doesn't indicate a lack of intelligence or being easily influenced or anything of the sort. In fact, I would suggest that choosing to disagree and continue a discussion politely would be an indicator of being far less emotion driven than resorting to insults.

I've not "given" when it comes to child pornography of any kind and distribution because, like you, I cannot see any reasonable possibility that the motives behind that distribution could fall anywhere in the realm of "art" or "free expression". Were I "easily influenced", I'm fairly certain I'd have said 'Oh yes, I agree' by now.

At any rate, it seems this discussion is winding down and once again we'll never reach any kind of agreement other than "real child abuse is bad". And isn't it becoming obvious by now that the reason these things will constantly be an issue in the courts is more due to the opponents of them rather than the advocates of free speech? As usual, we keep shooting ourselves in the feet by spending more time attacking free speech advocates and demonizing them than we do focusing on the issue. Pornography certainly isn't the only issue that becomes bogged down in such "debate".

ETA: I messed up the quotes again. I'm sorry. I stink at the quotes :(
 
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If you feel it necessary to present some scenarios for me to consider and respond to to try to narrow it down, be my guest, I like playing "Scruples".
I did give you a scenario.

I do tend to agree with much of the rationale provided therein regarding obscenities and the First Amendment. In particular:
Let me first assure you that I did in fact read all of the quoted material. I paid particular attention to the bolded text. I think there are some interesting and some valid points. Not all both interesting and valid. However, in the case of America the legal concept of prior restraint makes moot the points made (which is why none of Meese's report has had little to no bearing on law or policy). Meese's arguments seem compelling given that his subject matter is easily assailed on the grounds of taste. However, the First Amendmant isn't strengthened by those who would inact laws simply because they thought there was a danger. Perceptions change and danger is in the eye of the beholder. By saying "no prior restraint" we can nip that nasty problem in the bud. It's not simply a rhetorical strategy. It's a principle. A worthy one. Like my example of the video of child molestation being tossed out because of police misconduct it's easy for us to say "but let's make an exception in this case". No. Because we can always find exceptions to jettison principle. If you can't find a way within the law (and without setting aside fundamental rights) then, IMO, you are out of gas.

Now, I'm prepared to call a truce on the cat fighting...
I sincerly welcome that.
 

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