• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Moderated What's wrong with porn?

While it ( virtual child porn ) may not clearly advocate the behavior, it presents it as entertaining, and something to pursue...

Your comparison to Natural Born Killers advocating murder is nonsense .. Most people can clearly tell the difference ..
 
While it ( virtual child porn ) may not clearly advocate the behavior, it presents it as entertaining, and something to pursue...
Porn with rape themes present it as entertaing and... I don't accept your proposition that it presents it as something to persue anymore than porn leads to rape. Again, speculation, WHERE is your evidence.

Your comparison to Natural Born Killers advocating murder is nonsense .. Most people can clearly tell the difference ..
I think most people can clearly tell the difference between virtual porn and real children having sex but I don't know what your statement has to do with anything.
 
Now...there was another thing I read (let me see if I saved the link)...
http://faculty.uml.edu/jbyrne/44.203/schell_etal_avb_2007.pdf
Some pertinent extracts:

Adults engaged in cyber child porn are pleased to learn that many other like-minded adults exist, and they
often utilize this reality to rationalize their own behaviors—which tend to escalate in aggressive acts – to hurtcore –
over time. (Morgan, 2006)
Seems sensible to suppose that they will probably also take comfort in the knowledge that child abuse (manifest in virtual child porn) is endorsed by society generally!

The Criminal Code now defines “child porn” as “a photographic, film, video, or other visual representation, whether or not it was made by electronic or mechanical means…that shows a person who is or is
depicted as being under the age of 18 years
and is engaged in or is depicted as engaged in explicit sexual behavior…or the dominant characteristic of which is the depiction, for a sexual purpose, of a sexual organ or the anal region under the age of 18 years…or any written material or visual representation that advocates or counsels sexual activity with a person under the age of 18 years…”(Department of Justice Canada, 2002). [emphasis added]

Of interest, during that election, public outcry to toughen the Criminal Code was related to the criminal case of Michael Brier, a pedophile murderer of 10-year-old Holly Jones. The accused admitted that his fantasy about having sex with minors was increased by his engaging in Internet child porn (CBC News, 2006a,b) [emphasis added].

As noted earlier, in the United States, child pornography is a category of speech not protected by the First Amendment. The federal legal definition of child pornography can be found at 18 U.S.C. § 2256. Some particulars around the definition have changed in recent years, with the latest change occurring on April 30, 2003, when President George W. Bush signed the PROTECT Act.
B.H. Schell et al. / Aggression and Violent Behavior 12 (2007) 45–63 53
The latter not only implemented the Amber Alert communication system – which allows for nationwide alerts when children go missing or are kidnapped – but redefined child pornography to include not only images of real children
engaging in sexually explicit conduct but also computer-generated depictions indistinguishable from real children engaging in such acts. Indistinguishable was further defined as that which an ordinary person viewing the image would
conclude is a real child engaging in sexually explicit acts. However, cartoons, drawings, paintings, and sculptures depicting minors or adults engaging in sexually explicit acts, as well as depictions of actual adults that look like minors engaging in sexually explicit acts, are excluded from the definition of child pornography.


The PROTECT Act of 2000 was passed because of three major problems that still existed, despite legislation (U.S. Department of Justice, 2003). These were as follows:
• Law enforcement did not have the tools needed to locate missing children and to prosecute offenders.
• Existing federal laws did not ensure adequate, and at times, consistent punishment for those found guilty of such crimes.
Past legal obstacles have made prosecuting child pornography cases very difficult—especially virtually-produced child pornography. For example, in the April 16, 2002 high court decision, virtual child pornography that appeared
to involve – but did not actually include – identifiable juveniles was entitled to free speech protection. To avoid conviction, defendants frequently raised the theoretical possibility that rapidly-advancing computer imaging
technology was involved in the production of the materials, not real children
. (Frieden, 2002) [emphasis added]

So, does online child porn legislation appear to be working? In a report released on April 20, 2005, on children as victims of violent crime, the office of Statistics Canada said that charges related to child pornography increased eightfold over the period from 1998 through 2003. The increase in charges laid by law enforcement agents in Canada has been the result of several factors—including increased public awareness about the potential of the Internet to cause harm to children, police having increased and proper resources to conduct the investigations, improved laws having “the teeth” to charge cyber pornographers, and improvements in technology for catching the cyber criminals in their acts. [emphasis added]
 
As noted earlier, in the United States, child pornography is a category of speech not protected by the First Amendment.
Child pornography requires that real children engage in sexual acts. Since sex with minors is illegal then it stands to reason that the filming of such acts is illegal and therefore not protected by the First Amendment.

Why does this need to be repeated to you?
 
I think most people can clearly tell the difference between virtual porn and real children having sex but I don't know what your statement has to do with anything.
And it should go without saying by now, but I'll reiterate it anyhow, we are, of course, when we talk about virtual child porn, talking about "more or less sexually explicit fabricated images virtually indistinguishable from minors intended to sexually arouse." Of course, if you disagree with that definition to the extent that it affects your response to the aforegoing questions I suggest we agree on a definition first.
You've expressed no disagreement, so I assume you agree. So why are you now ignoring the definition, other than to dishonestly seek to support a flippant defence?
And BTW - "most people can clearly tell"? Citation please.
 
SW,
You are completely avoiding the problem of how wide the definition of "virtual child porn" is. The "whatever the da thinks" poses a lot of problems out in the real world.

Unless you get a kick out of porn in general being smut and love to see people getting arrested for vacation picture of their children at the beach. (yes, I grew up with nude beaches)
 
Child pornography requires that real children engage in sexual acts. Since sex with minors is illegal then it stands to reason that the filming of such acts is illegal and therefore not protected by the First Amendment.
... but redefined child pornography to include not only images of real children engaging in sexually explicit conduct but also computer-generated depictions indistinguishable from real children engaging in such acts. (see above)
Why does this need to be repeated to you?
 
You've expressed no disagreement, so I assume you agree. So why are you now ignoring the definition, other than to dishonestly seek to support a flippant defence?
Are you poisoning the well? I've no problem with the definition but I'm not sure of the significance. So long as children are not harmed in the production of the porn then there is no reason to ban it, until and unless a causal link to harm can be established.

And BTW - "most people can clearly tell"? Citation please.
It's an opinon. I've never seen child porn but my son is studying video game programing and he specializes in computer graphics. I've seen some things that were difficult to tell between real and not real but not much. It still doesn't change my point though.
 
Why does this need to be repeated to you?
This does not obviate the point I'm making.

I'll repeat one more time.

Child pornography requires that real children engage in sexual acts. Since sex with minors is illegal then it stands to reason that the filming of such acts is illegal and therefore not protected by the First Amendment

End of story.

Sheesh.

... but redefined child pornography to include not only images of real children engaging in sexually explicit conduct but also computer-generated depictions indistinguishable from real children engaging in such acts. (see above)
Redefining child pornography to get around the intent of the law is silly nonsense.
 
Some pertinent extracts:
Adults engaged in cyber child porn are pleased to learn that many other like-minded adults exist, and they
often utilize this reality to rationalize their own behaviors—which tend to escalate in aggressive acts – to hurtcore –
over time. (Morgan, 2006)
Seems sensible to suppose that they will probably also take comfort in the knowledge that child abuse (manifest in virtual child porn) is endorsed by society generally!
That is a HUGE leap. It simply says something that all humans do: find groups of like minded people to bond with and convince themselves it’s okay. This has nothing to do with virtual child porn: this is human nature. You can say the same about Furries, Democrats, Republicans, Yankee Fans and Motorcycle enthusiasts, etc, etc.
Look: Adults engaged in cyber bank robbery are pleased to learn that many other like-minded adults exist, and they
often utilize this reality to rationalize their own behaviors—which tend to escalate in aggressive acts – to hurtcore – over time

You’ve proven nothing.
The Criminal Code now defines “child porn” as “a photographic, film, video, or other visual representation, whether or not it was made by electronic or mechanical means…that shows a person who is or is
depicted as being under the age of 18 years and is engaged in or is depicted as engaged in explicit sexual behavior…or the dominant characteristic of which is the depiction, for a sexual purpose, of a sexual organ or the anal region under the age of 18 years…or any written material or visual representation that advocates or counsels sexual activity with a person under the age of 18 years…”(Department of Justice Canada, 2002). [emphasis added]

That’s the law. You’ve been arguing, “That’s the law” this whole time. That’s fine we say yes we agree it’s the law, but some of us happen to not completely agree with it because it’s too broadly worded. Also, the bolded part: “advocates or counsels sexual activity” is very important. Once again, it doesn’t cover this point: What if someone made a piece of art in which a virtual child who was being molested but obviously NOT to “advocates or counsels sexual activity”, but to invoke anger in the molester, or sorrow and empathy for the child, for example. With that kind of picture, it cannot be child porn according to the law above. Further, in the case of Maplethorpe, for example, if one person sees child porn and another does not, who is right?

Of interest, during that election, public outcry to toughen the Criminal Code was related to the criminal case of Michael Brier, a pedophile murderer of 10-year-old Holly Jones. The accused admitted that his fantasy about having sex with minors was increased by his engaging in Internet child porn (CBC News, 2006a,b) [emphasis added].

So? Doesn’t say “virtual”. It says “Internet”. I’ve seen Internet real porn with real actors and actresses. Not virtual, but still Internet. This has nothing to do with the subject at hand.

As noted earlier, in the United States, child pornography is a category of speech not protected by the First Amendment. The federal legal definition of child pornography can be found at 18 U.S.C. § 2256. Some particulars around the definition have changed in recent years, with the latest change occurring on April 30, 2003, when President George W. Bush signed the PROTECT Act.
B.H. Schell et al. / Aggression and Violent Behavior 12 (2007) 45–63 53
The latter not only implemented the Amber Alert communication system – which allows for nationwide alerts when children go missing or are kidnapped – but redefined child pornography to include not only images of real children
engaging in sexually explicit conduct but also computer-generated depictions indistinguishable from real children engaging in such acts. Indistinguishable was further defined as that which an ordinary person viewing the image would
conclude is a real child engaging in sexually explicit acts. However, cartoons, drawings, paintings, and sculptures depicting minors or adults engaging in sexually explicit acts, as well as depictions of actual adults that look like minors engaging in sexually explicit acts, are excluded from the definition of child pornography.


The PROTECT Act of 2000 was passed because of three major problems that still existed, despite legislation (U.S. Department of Justice, 2003). These were as follows:
• Law enforcement did not have the tools needed to locate missing children and to prosecute offenders.
• Existing federal laws did not ensure adequate, and at times, consistent punishment for those found guilty of such crimes.
Past legal obstacles have made prosecuting child pornography cases very difficult—especially virtually-produced child pornography. For example, in the April 16, 2002 high court decision, virtual child pornography that appeared
to involve – but did not actually include – identifiable juveniles was entitled to free speech protection. To avoid conviction, defendants frequently raised the theoretical possibility that rapidly-advancing computer imaging
technology was involved in the production of the materials, not real children.
(Frieden, 2002) [emphasis added]

Ah, I am so glad you included this.
It says nothing about virtual child porn telling people it’s okay to do, it says nothing about virtual child porn causing real children to be molested, it says nothing of anything you’ve been claiming about all this time. What does it really say? It says that the ONLY reason virtual child porn has been banned was because a fear of a future "theoretical possibility" that virtual models will be indistinguishable from real models. That's it.

In short, none of your points you’ve been pontificating about have been validated in any of the quotes you’ve posted.

So, does online child porn legislation appear to be working? In a report released on April 20, 2005, on children as victims of violent crime, the office of Statistics Canada said that charges related to child pornography increased eightfold over the period from 1998 through 2003. The increase in charges laid by law enforcement agents in Canada has been the result of several factors—including increased public awareness about the potential of the Internet to cause harm to children, police having increased and proper resources to conduct the investigations, improved laws having “the teeth” to charge cyber pornographers, and improvements in technology for catching the cyber criminals in their acts. [emphasis added]

Again, IT DOES NOT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT VIRTUAL CHILD PORN. Internet does NOT equal virtual.
 
Last edited:
No. I don't believe that. I believe that you are trying to get around the necessity of such a link.
What "necessity"? Remember this?:
BTW - there are countless laws whose premise is derived from perceived risks.
Sounds like an empirical claim to me. If there are so many then surely you can name one.
The ban on people taking a 250ml bottle of mineral water on a civil aircraft.

I note you elected not to respond to this. You're good at selecting what to respond to and what to ignore to suit your case, aren't you. You're not so good, though, that the more discerning posters here can't see right through that well-worn tactic, but more importantly, what it denotes.
 
That is a HUGE leap. It simply says something that all humans do: find groups of like minded people to bond with and convince themselves it’s okay. This has nothing to do with virtual child porn: this is human nature. You can say the same about Furries, Democrats, Republicans, Yankee Fans and Motorcycle enthusiasts, etc, etc.

Look: Adults engaged in cyber bank robbery are pleased to learn that many other like-minded adults exist, and they
often utilize this reality to rationalize their own behaviors—which tend to escalate in aggressive acts – to hurtcore – over time

You’ve proven nothing.

That’s the law. You’ve been arguing, “That’s the law” this whole time. That’s fine we say yes we agree it’s the law, but some of us happen to not completely agree with it because it’s too broadly worded. Also, the bolded part: “advocates or counsels sexual activity” is very important. Once again, it doesn’t cover this point: What if someone made a piece of art in which a virtual child who was being molested but obviously NOT to “advocates or counsels sexual activity”, but to invoke anger in the molester, or sorrow and empathy for the child, for example. With that kind of picture, it cannot be child porn according to the law above. Further, in the case of Maplethorpe, for example, if one person sees child porn and another does not, who is right?

So? Doesn’t say “virtual”. It says “Internet”. I’ve seen Internet real porn with real actors and actresses. Not virtual, but still Internet. This has nothing to do with the subject at hand.

Ah, I am so glad you included this.

It says nothing about virtual child porn telling people it’s okay to do, it says nothing about virtual child porn causing real children to be molested, it says nothing of anything you’ve been claiming about all this time. What does it really say? It says that the ONLY reason virtual child porn has been banned was because a fear of a future "theoretical possibility" that virtual models will be indistinguishable from real models. That's it.

In short, none of your points you’ve been pontificating about have been validated in any of the quotes you’ve posted.

Again, IT DOES NOT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT VIRTUAL CHILD PORN. Internet does NOT equal virtual.
(emphasis mine) Thanks.
 
<snip>
From page three: "The frightening reality is that at least 80% of those who purchase child pornography are active child molesters.
Moreover, 36% of child pornographers who use the U.S. mail to exploit a child have been found to be actual child
molesters. Child pornographers tend to range in age from 10 to 65 (Posey, 2005)."
<snip>

sugarB:

I don't know anyone who disputes the fact than pedophiles are drawn to child porn.
Note: actual child pornography is already illegal.

There is a collector of Japanese comic-books who will likely receive a harsher prison sentence than if he had actually molested a child. There hasn't been shown any evidence by investigators that he possesses any real child porn or has actually harmed anyone in any way whatsoever.

It's highly unlikely that sending this man up the river would effect the behavior of actual pedophiles. And it won't do a DAMM thing to help actual children who are or have been abused.

But it does create a lot of free press for ambitious DA's, anti-porn crusaders, etc. Of course we should never question people who are acting out of purely selfless motives. And, of course anyone who does question the effectiveness of Virtual Child Porn laws is obviously a selfish SOB.

The abuse of children turns my stomach as it does the stomach of most people. But, the stomach shouldn't be used as an organ of cognition.
 
What "necessity"? Remember this?:

I note you elected not to respond to this. You're good at selecting what to respond to and what to ignore to suit your case, aren't you. You're not so good, though, that the more discerning posters here can't see right through that well-worn tactic, but more importantly, what it denotes.
Get off your high horse. You've not responded to every point I've made.

You have proven that there are bad laws but I will concede that you gave me an example that I did not respond to.

Oddly enough your argument, or a similar example, makes my argument for me. It's against the law to bring tweezers on board planes but after you get on the plane, if you are in first class. You will be given a FRICKIN knife with your dinner.

Bad laws are a poor basis for other laws.

BTW: I'm not 100% sure this is a good example as there is a causal link between flammable liquids and harm on airplanes. I just don't think it is a very good link. Certainly better than virtual child porn.

The purpose of the law you cite is for PR and psychological purposes only. It wouldn't like stand to legal scrutiny if it was in conflict with fundamental rights. Airlines are exempt from a number of legal burdens.
 
Last edited:
I've no problem with the definition ...
So why did you change it to omit virtual child porn in order to suit your argument?:
Child pornography requires that real children engage in sexual acts. Since sex with minors is illegal then it stands to reason that the filming of such acts is illegal and therefore not protected by the First Amendment. [emphasis added]


So long as children are not harmed in the production of the porn then there is no reason to ban it, until and unless a causal link to harm can be established.
How convenient. So you disagree, then, that virtual child porn advocates child abuse given that it portrays child abuse? If so, by what application of logic? If not, you're admitting that you're in favour of advocating child abuse, right? Which is it?

It's an opinon. I've never seen child porn but my son is studying video game programing and he specializes in computer graphics. I've seen some things that were difficult to tell between real and not real but not much. It still doesn't change my point though.
So you're claiming that people who stoop so low as to view virtual child porn (for sexual or morbid gratification purposes) somehow manage to draw and maintain a moral line between virtual children who are "difficult to tell between real and not real" and real children? Do you really expect intelligent people to buy that?!
 
There is a collector of Japanese comic-books who will likely receive a harsher prison sentence than if he had actually molested a child. There hasn't been shown any evidence by investigators that he possesses any real child porn or has actually harmed anyone in any way whatsoever.
Notwithstanding your committing the "No True Scotsman" fallacy here (not to mention others), and that the words "baby" and "bath water" come to mind, I understand and appreciate your argument. However, isolated instances of prejudicial loopholes in laws that are capable of exploitation by power-crazed zealots are not a good reason to rescind laws that serve to achieve their intended purpose. Either such people should be removed from post, or better still precluded in the first place, and/or such laws should be amended to close such loopholes. The answer to your obvious concern, I'm afraid, lies elsewhere.
 
Is this true southwind? If it is I would like to recreate your argument for him to see.
I informed JFrankA earlier that my discussion with him was over. If you wish to posit his argument as your own feel free - it obviously has some merit in your view, but it doesn't take a genius to realize how I, and others, feel about your position on this topic, so it had better be an aboration of monumental proportions on JFrankA's part if you think I might take it seriously and not treat it with the contempt it would otherwise deserve.
 

Back
Top Bottom