Moderated What's wrong with porn?

[ponderingturtle]

Excellent point! I wonder why the anti-porn crowd screams "exploitation of young women" but never "exploitation of young men".

Sure but that is because of sexual double standards.

I'm not talking about romance novels. I'm talking about written porn.

Wait there is a difference?

Very true. But the demographics are showing that women are catching up. Again, that's including the internet. Women are buying more now that it's on the internet.

Thats nice.

 

[JFrankA]

Sure but that is because of sexual double standards.

Exactly.

Wait there is a difference?

You know, I was thinking, if one defines porn as a medium meant to arouse someone else, romance novels might be included in that category. However, the source I was using didn't include romance novels. They were talking about written word porn, mostly on the internet.

Thats nice.

I think so! In fact, I find it sexy.

 

[Eddie Dane]

Exactly.

Beautiful example. Wish I thought of it.

Thank you

Another one that just occurred to me is martial arts.

I did kick-boxing for years.
It was hard training and I did get knocked in the head a couple of times pretty badly.

But it was an controlled environment, the guys I was fighting were not going to put me in hospital and there were rules.

I got to do something "aggressive" and "violent" and really challenge myself.
It was a way for me to cross some serious personal borders and experience hidden aspects of my personality that lie dormant in my otherwise docile and civilised existence.

I was asked to take part in a tournament, but declined.
i can see why someone would do that though. Just to see if you'd have the balls to slug it out with some guy in front of a cheering and jeering crowd.

I think games serve to explore these "dangerous" parts of our personality.

Crossing some sexual norms in front of a camera? I'd be way too shy, but I can see why people would do that.

 

[ponderingturtle]

You know, I was thinking, if one defines porn as a medium meant to arouse someone else, romance novels might be included in that category. However, the source I was using didn't include romance novels. They were talking about written word porn, mostly on the internet.

You still have not convinced me there is a difference in content, rather it is a difference in how society views the material. Porn is something to stigmatize, romance novels are acceptable books for most women.

 

[Belz...]

It depends on what you'd like her state of mind to be!

No, it doesn't. Otherwise we don't have the same definition of "objectifying". If her emotions and pleasure matter, how is it objectifying ?

Not irrelevant if one has a desire to learn. Thanks for clearing that up, though.

See ? This is the kind of childish attitude that everybody hates. Your point _was_ irrelevant.

We are, however, still left wondering why Ron dislikes and is disgusted at the idea of somebody drinking semen

I see no difference. I'm disgusted by the idea of someone else drinking urine because I'm disgusted by the idea of ME drinking urine (It doesn't follow that I have something against those who do). Anyway, my point is that one is usually linked to the other. But at least now I understand what you meant, though I disagree.

 

[Belz...]

Except for those who might now be flipping burgers at Maccas (assuming some "former" porn stars are prepared to take the risk!).
Top tip: If you want to be a smart arse it's best to make sure you have ... well, a "smart" arse!

Now you're just being contrarian and adversarial. It was a joke, for pete's sake.

 

[Belz...]

And no, I will not be divulging the content of such pictures here. I do not feel it is appropriate (especially since some people have already objected to use of explicit language in this thread), nor do I feel it would be within the terms of the MA for me to do so.

Ooh, ooh. PM!! PM!!!

 

[Belz...]

Excellent point! I wonder why the anti-porn crowd screams "exploitation of young women" but never "exploitation of young men".

Because men are evil. Duh!

 

[Southwind17]

I see what you are saying but it just doesn't work like that. Are you saying that a woman who has a rape fantasy in which she's the victim, if that woman was actually raped, she'd really enjoy it? I don't think she would. Not a real life one. Just because you have a desire to do something in a controlled environment doesn't mean you have the desire to actually have the reality.

No, I'm not saying she'd enjoy it at all. The consequences of realising a fantasy are usually what prevent us from seeking to realize it. One might fantasise about being bound and sexually "abused", for example, for which I'm suggesting that that person has an underlying desire to be bound and sexually "abused", but at the same time they know that given the opportunity they would refuse the offer. You don't think masochists actually enjoy feeling pain do you? What they "enjoy", I suspect, is the "higher" experience. I'm not a psychologists. These are just my thoughts. If I'm wrong that's fine - happy to be pointed in the direction of some contrary information.

I believe there's a difference between desiring the fantasy and desiring the reality.

The fantasy is the desire!

It's the difference between playing Guitar Hero and being an actual rock star. Playing Guitar Hero is easy, you plug in the plastic guitar, strum it to the music playing and keep up with the dots.

You obviously haven't tried "If the World" by GNR!

Being a rock star is harder, you devote your life to it. There's the years of learning the instrument, practice, writing songs, getting together with a band, losing band members, drama withing the band, getting a recording contract, etc, etc.
Most people will desire the fantasy of being a rock star, but not everyone would have the desire to give up so much to actually be one. It's the difference between play and reality.
It's the same thing with sexual fantasies. It's adult play. So long as it remains a game, so to speak, then its not a desire for the real thing.

I honestly don't think the rock star scenario you describe is meaningfully analogous to porn. I only used an isolated extract earlier to help explain a concept.

I see what you are saying but I don't think you see what I'm saying. In my example the "playing with buddies" scenario is a friendly game of poker. Not much is lost, you get to be with people you trust, if it gets too much, you can stop, it's just a game.
But in the illegal casino scenario, there's a lot more at risk. Money, the police, even the people around you.
Both are a desire to play poker, but one is the desire to just play: just like playing Grand Theft Auto, it is just a game. Nobody gets hurt, there's no risk and the environment is controlled. With the other, the risk is real, the damage is potentially horrible and you can't just stop what's happening.
Sure there's desire to play something but that doesn't mean that translates into desiring the real thing.

Which comes back to what I've written above: Desire = fantasy = reality (if you're incapable of resisting (remember the voluntary murder/cannibalism cited earlier?))/resistance (if you're capable of comprehending and heeding the consequences).

Take the reference to "Heat" earlier. I'm sure far more men fantasise about pulling off an armed robbery similar to that than just those that have done so and then made it reality. I know I have! What's the difference between such men? Nothing, in principle, other than the ability to resist, for whatever reason. Nothing more - nothing less.

 

[JFrankA]

Thank you

Another one that just occurred to me is martial arts.

I did kick-boxing for years.
It was hard training and I did get knocked in the head a couple of times pretty badly.

But it was an controlled environment, the guys I was fighting were not going to put me in hospital and there were rules.

I got to do something "aggressive" and "violent" and really challenge myself.
It was a way for me to cross some serious personal borders and experience hidden aspects of my personality that lie dormant in my otherwise docile and civilised existence.

I was asked to take part in a tournament, but declined.
i can see why someone would do that though. Just to see if you'd have the balls to slug it out with some guy in front of a cheering and jeering crowd.

I think games serve to explore these "dangerous" parts of our personality.

Crossing some sexual norms in front of a camera? I'd be way too shy, but I can see why people would do that.

Again, it's the difference between play and reality. Many people see nothing wrong with anything like paint ball or boxing, etc, which are all about killing and hurting someone, but if consenting adults admit they want to do age play, or fantasy rape, etc, they are seen as someone who wants to actually do it for real. Why?

 

[JFrankA]

You still have not convinced me there is a difference in content, rather it is a difference in how society views the material. Porn is something to stigmatize, romance novels are acceptable books for most women.

True. Just for the record, I'm not trying to convince you one way or the other. You make a good point.

 

[Southwind17]

Normal actors and actresses are also not scarce.
Yet Nicole Kidman gets tens of millions per film and most other actresses are waiting tables in LA restaurants.

You miss the point. Nicole Kidman is extremely scarce!

 

[Cainkane1]

Wrong.

My example was in direct response to a statement that implied that no woman could possibly want to do porn (with no definitions applied) unless she had no other options. It was relevant to that.

Stating that my example is not relevant to your super constrictive definition of "porn" is a strawman, as I never claimed that it was.

That I will not go into graphic detail in regards to my example does not change the fact that you are making baseless assumptions and arguing from incredulity.

I know how and why you feel this way and I'm sorry.

 

[Southwind17]

Nope. Not in this case. It's popularity not lack of "resources" that make the prices change.

Of course (Nicole Kidman)! So what's the pay differential between two "regular" male/female porn "actors".

 

[Southwind17]

Exactly.
Beautiful example. Wish I thought of it.

"Beautiful example" of what?

 

[sugarb]

Again, it's the difference between play and reality. Many people see nothing wrong with anything like paint ball or boxing, etc, which are all about killing and hurting someone, but if consenting adults admit they want to do age play, or fantasy rape, etc, they are seen as someone who wants to actually do it for real. Why?

Hi, JFrankA. I removed a long-winded reply to your comment about poker, so I'll be as brief as I can here. I think what it comes down to is our individual punishment/reward mechanism. One of my examples was that, as a young girl, someone asked me to kill them. I pointed out that I had previously thought that I should, had even considered how best to go about it, but at the moment the opportunity presented itself, that was a threshold I couldn't cross...because I loved that person more than I hated them. Which was a difficult thought process for me to grasp at that age.

In poker. Some are content with nickel games, some cannot get satisfaction unless the stakes are higher, and then some won't feel any satisfaction unless not only the stakes are high, but the game is illegal. Our punishment/reward mechanisms aren't all the same, and so some people must push harder to feel any reward. I don't know why that is...but at times all of our minds go places they shouldn't.

As with the example about myself as a young girl, someone else in that same position might have made a different choice. I think that there is no way to predict that. If our minds can think it, though, we can do it...so I think there is a fine line between fantasy and reality...but there is also that differing level of what it takes for each of us to achieve satisfaction. Some people are easy to please, some aren't. Some people are easily amused, some aren't. I think it only becomes a problem when we forget about the punishment part of the punishments and rewards, and seek satisfaction while disregarding any consequences to ourselves and others.

 

[Southwind17]

No, it doesn't. Otherwise we don't have the same definition of "objectifying". If her emotions and pleasure matter, how is it objectifying ?

Er ... if you desire negative emotions and pleasure (i.e. pain), that's objectifying.

I see no difference. I'm disgusted by the idea of someone else drinking urine because I'm disgusted by the idea of ME drinking urine (It doesn't follow that I have something against those who do).

So exactly how far are you going to take this "I dislike (digust) what John Doe is doing because I dislike doing it myself" attitude? I actually dislike watching opera. Let's pretend you do too (assuming you don't). Do you dislike the idea of somebody else watching opera? Where do you draw the line between what you personally dislike and what you dislike other people doing? (that's not rhetorical!). Do you see the difference now?

Now you're just being contrarian and adversarial. It was a joke, for pete's sake.

Based on a false premise that I felt inclined to highlight to you. You wouldn't happen to be similarly inclined to highlight the punchline by any chance, would you?

 

[JFrankA]

No, I'm not saying she'd enjoy it at all. The consequences of realising a fantasy are usually what prevent us from seeking to realize it. One might fantasise about being bound and sexually "abused", for example, for which I'm suggesting that that person has an underlying desire to be bound and sexually "abused", but at the same time they know that given the opportunity they would refuse the offer. You don't think masochists actually enjoy feeling pain do you? What they "enjoy", I suspect, is the "higher" experience. I'm not a psychologists. These are just my thoughts. If I'm wrong that's fine - happy to be pointed in the direction of some contrary information.

You're a bit wrong. There are masochists who do enjoy pain. They're called "Pain Sluts" (Yes, a term used for both women and men)

The fantasy is the desire!

It's a desire for the fantasy - not necessarily the reality. The

You obviously haven't tried "If the World" by GNR!

No, you're right. I've never have.

I honestly don't think the rock star scenario you describe is meaningfully analogous to porn. I only used an isolated extract earlier to help explain a concept.

Actually, you're right there. The point I'm trying to make is that one may desire the idea of playing the game, but wouldn't desire the real thing.

It's exactly what Eddie Dane said:

That must be why I really enjoy paint-ball, yet would hate being in an actual war.

Which comes back to what I've written above: Desire = fantasy = reality (if you're incapable of resisting (remember the voluntary murder/cannibalism cited earlier?))/resistance (if you're capable of comprehending and accepting the consequences).

First off, your equation is wrong. It's more like Reality - uncontrolled situations + desire = fantasy. If you feel that desire, fantasy and reality are all the same, then I'm sorry, you are one scary person. Just because I desire the fantasy of something, anything - sexual or not, does not mean I would actually want the reality.

I've known people who have very extreme fantasies. In fact, I know one who had a murder fantasy. She wanted to feel like she was being murdered. But the reality was that she didn't want to be murdered, (and, I might add, no one wanted to kill her), but she wanted to feel it, but of course, without going through the reality.

And her fantasy was achieved a couple of very safe, but very devious ways. There was one time when it got to real for her and the scene was stopped by her, with a discussion as to how to improve it.

To make a note here, I was one of the people trying to help figure out how to do the fantasy, I did not participate directly in it. Her husband and her were the only participants.

Anyway, the point I'm making is this: once a person desires or don't care about the reality, that's where the line is crossed. A sane mind will role play with her or his partner with a fantasy rape. Someone who wants to really rape someone is out for something altogether different than sex.

Take the reference to "Heat" earlier. I'm sure far more men fantasise about pulling off an armed robbery similar to that than just those that have done so and then made it reality. I know I have! What's the difference between such men? Nothing, in principle, other than the ability to resist, for whatever reason. Nothing more - nothing less.

Really? You're resisting that desire to rob a bank? Do you have a desire to rob every bank you pass by? Is it calling to you to just take the money? Is the thrill of being chased by the police calling to you? Is the desire to really hurt or possibly really shoot people part of it? Do you desire having hostages who are begging for their lives? Are you resisting the urge to possibly kill an innocent person just to make sure you get away with the money? Do you want to be on the run constantly? Worried that any moment you are going to arrested and thrown in jail?

You are really resisting those desires?

 

[BenBurch]

There are MANY masochists who enjoy pain. Not just some.

 

[JFrankA]

Hi, JFrankA. I removed a long-winded reply to your comment about poker, so I'll be as brief as I can here. I think what it comes down to is our individual punishment/reward mechanism. One of my examples was that, as a young girl, someone asked me to kill them. I pointed out that I had previously thought that I should, had even considered how best to go about it, but at the moment the opportunity presented itself, that was a threshold I couldn't cross...because I loved that person more than I hated them. Which was a difficult thought process for me to grasp at that age.

In poker. Some are content with nickel games, some cannot get satisfaction unless the stakes are higher, and then some won't feel any satisfaction unless not only the stakes are high, but the game is illegal. Our punishment/reward mechanisms aren't all the same, and so some people must push harder to feel any reward. I don't know why that is...but at times all of our minds go places they shouldn't.

As with the example about myself as a young girl, someone else in that same position might have made a different choice. I think that there is no way to predict that. If our minds can think it, though, we can do it...so I think there is a fine line between fantasy and reality...but there is also that differing level of what it takes for each of us to achieve satisfaction. Some people are easy to please, some aren't. Some people are easily amused, some aren't. I think it only becomes a problem when we forget about the punishment part of the punishments and rewards, and seek satisfaction while disregarding any consequences to ourselves and others.

But that's exactly my point. SW is arguing that all people who do fantasy rape has the desire for real rape somewhere. Not all people do, and yes, there are levels of risk. But until someone chooses to do the real thing, then it's just simple play.

Yes, there are levels of play, but there is a definite, clear line between play and reality. If someone knows the consequences, or doesn't bother to look at the consequences and still chooses the reality, then that person did desire the reality.

SW seems to believe that if one desires the fantasy they automatically desire the reality. That's just untrue.