Moderated What's wrong with porn?
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Marcus
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I believe this is it. A religious site gleaning information from the Shelly Lubben site.
www.richardyewrulz.blogspot.com/2009/10/these-are-some-facts-i-found-about-porn.html
No one hates porn quite so much as the religious nutcases.
ETA: Sorry, orangem beat me to it.
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Kevin_Lowe
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This is just in addition to Ponderingturtle's excellent points.
Lots of careers have characteristic risks. Pizza delivery drivers, construction and lumber workers and (to a significantly lesser extent) police all have a significant risk of being killed on the job, which seems to me a more serious risk than the risk of infection with a curable STI.
I'm not saying that it's a good thing that porn actors risk getting chlamydia or gonorrhea, however before you have proof that the porn industry is worse than, say, the pizza industry or the construction industry, you need to show that the actual net risk of injury or death is more serious in porn than in other careers.
I'm unsure what the significance of this statistic is, and based on your previous statistic it seems highly likely that this could be entirely due to the fact that men often have asymptomatic chlamydia infections and women don't, so if the major STI in the industry was chlamydia you'd expect slightly more female cases than male because the average male sufferer would infect slightly more people before getting treated than the average female sufferer.
Overall this is a list of mostly irrelevant factoids put together to look scary. I don't think it has any intellectual credibility, and I strongly suspect it was put together by a sloppy thinker with an anti-porn agenda.
I wouldn't say freedom of choice is a complete illusion. There's only a limited amount of class mobility and freedom of career choice in the real world, but that doesn't negate the significance of a person's decision to choose one career rather than another out of the set of careers available to them.
That's horrible, but then again lots of pizza delivery drivers and construction workers get killed on the job.
Also I don't think anyone here is against prosecuting anyone who beats, rapes, drugs or whatever any woman, whether she works in porn or not.
HansMustermann
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The same can be said about people ending up in management jobs just because that becomes the only promotion available at some point, or because that's the only way to make one's dream program come true. And yes, it's often hard to get, say, a coder job after you've been a manager for the last 10 years.
Ditto for most managers.
But, really, money is probably the most common motivator for humans generally. It's hardly worth mentioning that some people do their work for money, or choose a job for money. I mean, if that's a surprise to anyone, then wait until they learn the Pope's religion; I'm sure they won't see that coming either
And it's supposed to work like that. The very apology for the western economic and political systems hinges upon that invisible hand and the idea that the market is close enough to ideal to work based on just greed. If with your skills you can get a 500$ an hour job instead of a 5$ an hour job, you're _supposed_ to take the former. There are whole tomes written about why that is good, e.g., because it causes a better utilization of resources, including, yes, skilled workers.
A lot of CEOs and bosses are narcisists, so?
Plus, while narcissism is an actual psychiatry-recognized condition, nymphomania is not, or no longer. It's just an insulting stereotype and pejorative, much like a more pop-psych way of saying someone's a slut. And its definition across time varied to comical extremes, often including just about everything that a sexist society forbade women. Did you know that at one point reading novels, eating chocolate, or having any "impure" thoughts, were actually classified as symptoms of nymphomania? Not making it up, sadly.
And some become managers just to show some old high-school bully who's the real loser.
Or whatever, really. One-upping someone or another is such a common motivator for humans, that this is just padding the list. There is nothing porn-specific about it.
But seriously, when the list could apply almost verbatim to Steve Jobs or a hundred other CEOs instead of porn stars... I have trouble taking it seriously as proof of the evils of the porn industry.
BenBurch
Gatekeeper of The Left
Where do you get the 66% of porn stars have Herpes number?
Actual source please and not some other list of what's wrong with porn.
Because you know 87% of all statistics used to make an emotional argument (including that one) came out of somebody's ass.
Actual source please and not some other list of what's wrong with porn.
Because you know 87% of all statistics used to make an emotional argument (including that one) came out of somebody's ass.
Wow! I get that I was really unclear as to my intentions with my previous post. I'll try to get the hang og this... Let me begin by reinterating where I stand regarding porn.
So... In my previous post (with all the statistics) I was trying to respond to the question debated about: "Most women would not choose to be a porn star". I believe this to be true. It remains an assumption on my part but my logic behind this is that the general portrayal of the porn industry is a negative one. And after my search on the internet, it was quickly clear that the negative views far outweighed the positive ones in numbers. So the statistics, the articles, the speeches, etc., may they be true or false, credible or not, they flood and nourrish social awareness and definitely influence how many people see this industry (America is still very religious), i.e. most women would not go towards a profession that is so broadly seen as negative. I didn't choose the quotes because of their validity, rather as example of what seems to be the general portrayal of porn on the net and/or what's readily available.
But regardless of my being so unclear, some of you had really interesting responses. It's true that a lot of the arguments the anti-porn brigade put forward can also be applicable to many other jobs, even some that have a high-status. That had never occurred to me.
So... In my previous post (with all the statistics) I was trying to respond to the question debated about: "Most women would not choose to be a porn star". I believe this to be true. It remains an assumption on my part but my logic behind this is that the general portrayal of the porn industry is a negative one. And after my search on the internet, it was quickly clear that the negative views far outweighed the positive ones in numbers. So the statistics, the articles, the speeches, etc., may they be true or false, credible or not, they flood and nourrish social awareness and definitely influence how many people see this industry (America is still very religious), i.e. most women would not go towards a profession that is so broadly seen as negative. I didn't choose the quotes because of their validity, rather as example of what seems to be the general portrayal of porn on the net and/or what's readily available.
But regardless of my being so unclear, some of you had really interesting responses. It's true that a lot of the arguments the anti-porn brigade put forward can also be applicable to many other jobs, even some that have a high-status. That had never occurred to me.
Ron_Tomkins
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I took a moment to go back to how this thread started and I take one of the OP's first replies:
Even there I think we have to disagree. Why is that a bunch of caveats? Are you suggesting there's something inherently bad with alcohol?
I think it's perfectly reasonable to say that there's nothing inherently bad with alcohol provided all the things you've already listed.
Do you think otherwise? Is there something inherently bad with alcohol?
And by inherently bad, I mean exactly that: Inherently bad. Period. Like poison. Poison is inherently bad for us. You take one little dose and you die. Alcohol can kill but only if you drink way too much. But the same is true of anything done in excess. Heck, there's even a type of disease that you get if you drink too much water. So now that we've kept that clear, I would like to hear if you think there's something inherently bad with alcohol, and what that is... and of course, provided there's some evidence.
Even there I think we have to disagree. Why is that a bunch of caveats? Are you suggesting there's something inherently bad with alcohol?
I think it's perfectly reasonable to say that there's nothing inherently bad with alcohol provided all the things you've already listed.
Do you think otherwise? Is there something inherently bad with alcohol?
And by inherently bad, I mean exactly that: Inherently bad. Period. Like poison. Poison is inherently bad for us. You take one little dose and you die. Alcohol can kill but only if you drink way too much. But the same is true of anything done in excess. Heck, there's even a type of disease that you get if you drink too much water. So now that we've kept that clear, I would like to hear if you think there's something inherently bad with alcohol, and what that is... and of course, provided there's some evidence.
Alright, here's some food for thought for those of you who do not believe "most" women would NOT want to become porn stars:
- 66% of porn stars have Herpes, a non-curable disease.
- Chlamydia and Gonorrhea among performers is 10x greater than that of LA County 20-24 year olds.
- 70% of sexually transmitted infections in the porn industry occur in females.
- 75%-90% of porn performers are prostituted women.
- 20 suicides and 28 drug related deaths among performers that we know of since 2000.
- Over 100 straight and gay performers died from AIDS.
- The largest group viewing online pornography is ages 12 to 17.
- More than 11 million teens regularly view porn online.
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And....
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"No one held a gun to their heads and said 'Do it,'" remains a facile ploy to avoid confronting the issue. Freedom of choice is illusion. How many working-class men would choose (a career in) boxing in a world of truly free choices, in which they might just as easily become brain surgeons? And how many working-class women would choose to be pornographic film stars, or prostitutes, if they could just as easily become Supreme Court justices?"
-Michael Kimmel, in Men Confront Pornography.
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And... (Sorry, I can't put the link in, I haven't posted enough to allowed yet)
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4 Reasons Women Become Porn Stars:
Alternate Career:
There are many women who become porn stars by accident. Such individuals travel to Los Angeles and other large cities in search for acting opportunities in the entertainment business. However, they consider porn movies after being passed on for other normal roles. Some women are able to separate themselves from porn quickly after doing one or two movies and return to more regular acting roles. Unfortunately, lots of women remain in the porn business and start to make a name for themselves in adult movies.
Once they have performed in several adult movies, it can be difficult to get cast for normal Hollywood productions. These women then decide to build a career in porn and bypass regular acting altogether. Their reason for getting into porn is usually not intentional but becomes acceptable to them after some time. This is one reason why many women become porn stars. If they do not find a career in Hollywood movies, they accept offers in porn.
Search for Money
The porn business is a very lucrative industry. This is another reason why many women choose to become porn stars. In fact, money is one of the most common reasons people work in porn. Adult film stars like Jill Kelly and Jenna Jameson have millions of dollars. Their paycheck might not look like that of any newcomer. However, women do make a significant amount of money by performing in adult movies. It is not unheard of for a porn actress to earn a few thousand dollars for one day of work.
Nymphomaniac
This may be one of the most odd and unhealthy reasons why women become porn stars. However, many women do indeed enter the porn business because they have excessive sexual desires. This can be both exciting and harmful depending on the circumstances. The rise in STDs has probably tripled in the porn industry. Putting that aside, there are tons of women who enjoy working in porn movies. They get much satisfaction out of their interactions. To these individuals, the work itself is a great advantage of being a porn star.
Revenge
While it may sound unusual, some women become porn stars to get revenge. There are porn stars who have stated that they were seeking revenge on an ex-boyfriend. This revenge was acted out by participating in porn movies. Women who have chosen to seek some kind of revenge did so for various reasons. The reasons include cheating or abuse from significant others. One may find it difficult to understand why becoming a porn star can even the score with someone that has done wrong. However, that is where some women find their satisfaction and closure.
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On a personal level, a close friend of mine has been in the porn industry since she was 17 years old (she is now close to 40). She has been beaten, raped (more than once), drugged, insulted... and the list goes on. She has tried to get out of it but no one wants to consider you (apart from waitressing or hair dressing) if you have a history in the porn industry. Now, I know that this is not the experience EVERY woman has, but unfortunately, it is far from being an isolated case. There's a huge difference between the idea of pornography and the practice of pornography. Some porn productions may be a shining example of respect and ethics but those are the exception. And yes, society does still very much view the "porn star" as practicing a low-status profession.
But like I wrote earlier, I really enjoy some types porn and believe it is a social necessity, just like prostitution. But puritanism, extreme feminism and religion (just to mention those) are marginalizing and demonizing those professions with a passion, hence, feeding the sharks (of course, I'm not talking about child pornography which is a totally different story!!!!!). SO... Although I'm aware that some do, I believe most women, meaning a majority (%) of women, would not CHOOSE to become a porn star.
Uh, would you by wild chance have a source for those statistics - and, by source I mean the CDC or other major keeper of accurate/recognized as credible statistics. Also, remember that only countries with ignorant puritans/etc. have the socialization effects you speak of. Many do not or have them at a much lower level - and even our culture has changed a LOT since the 1950s.
As to your friend - why can't she use the "I was a housewife" out. If she has no other skills, it's not the porn that has her unable to get a job. If it is the porn, use the as above. My point - without knowing her non-porn skills, it's hard to evaluate which keeps her from other jobs.
BenBurch
Gatekeeper of The Left
Am am making enquiries on the herpes number now. I hope to have some definitive numbers in a day or so with a source you can go back to.
JFrankA
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Wow! I get that I was really unclear as to my intentions with my previous post. I'll try to get the hang og this... Let me begin by reinterating where I stand regarding porn.
So... In my previous post (with all the statistics) I was trying to respond to the question debated about: "Most women would not choose to be a porn star". I believe this to be true. It remains an assumption on my part but my logic behind this is that the general portrayal of the porn industry is a negative one. And after my search on the internet, it was quickly clear that the negative views far outweighed the positive ones in numbers. So the statistics, the articles, the speeches, etc., may they be true or false, credible or not, they flood and nourrish social awareness and definitely influence how many people see this industry (America is still very religious), i.e. most women would not go towards a profession that is so broadly seen as negative. I didn't choose the quotes because of their validity, rather as example of what seems to be the general portrayal of porn on the net and/or what's readily available.
But regardless of my being so unclear, some of you had really interesting responses. It's true that a lot of the arguments the anti-porn brigade put forward can also be applicable to many other jobs, even some that have a high-status. That had never occurred to me.
Very nicely put.
And honestly, I will admit that I am basing my opinion strictly on the list of conditions I've pointed out in a previous post. The only reason why I am doing it this way is because when I speak to women who wouldn't do it, the next thing they mention is a list of one to a few items that they want in order to make them change their minds and say yes.
The problem with asking someone that they would do a job (any job) or not is that people asked would make their decision based on their perception of the job, their expectation of what the job is, the price of doing the job and the rewards of doing the job. This is true for all jobs, no matter what they are.
Based upon that, if I ask a woman the question "would you do porn" just as it is, it is very incomplete question. Because the answer that is given is based upon that woman's perceptions will be entirely different than another woman's, and, in fact, those perceptions are quite probably wrong. The best way to accurately ask this question is to have a set of equal circumstances that are equal and true to ask each person.
Now I may be over thinking here, which is what I do a lot, and this may be a straw man, (and I'm sure everyone would tell me if it is, (and I'm sorry if it is)), but by my perception, under the conditions I've listed before, I think most women would like to do porn. And may I add that I don't mean this as an insult to women, so please any women reading this take it that way.
Of course, I could be wrong. That's fine, too. What I have just said is merely my opinion and observations. I'm simply trying to explain why I think the way I do, and honestly, I don't think whether the majority of women would do porn or not is not relative to this discussion.
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I'm quite a porn-aficioné myself.
Well, I'll admit it has some downsides.
First, it's the obvious - While you're wanking to some barely legal russian maid you could be, in fact, making meaningful and passionate love to someone you love. Say, for instance, a barely legal russian maid.
Second - Well, in the end it's just a waste of time. It's a good waste but still... it is time wasted.
Third (and I'm sorry if this seems somehow offensive to the female attendants here at the Forum): Everytime I meet a hot girl first thing that comes to mind is "Humm... I wonder if she swallows" or "I bet she likes it rough!". I don't know why this happens. Still, no one can blame me from my thoughts. Maybe you can blame me for sharing my thoughts but, hey, isn't that the point of the thread?
Fourth: It is super-degrading and corrosive to self-esteem. At a point in my life, I was terrified to think I was the only one without a 7km dick. And for women it's even worse, at least if they compare themselves with pornstars. Honestly, I'm not really into pornstars - like someone mentioned, it's too fake, too plastic, too cheap... Now, barely legal russian maids, that's another story!
But of course, like any other terrible family-breaking hard-cold addiction, pornography has its benefits - otherwise no one would do it.
First: Well, it is easy(!). If I really feel like watching a naked danish redhead riding a poney while wearing a straw hat or a mexican girl at the beach drinking a bottle of tequilla and then having fun with it, I can do it with a dozen clicks on the mouse.
Second: It's good when you're bored or when you're really stressed out. Although one has to be careful, if you feel that watching porn everyday makes you less agitated, you should rethink on why you are so agitated in the first place. Like the cigarette smoker who says cigarettes help him to calm down, when in reality what makes them stressed out is the lack of nicotine. You get the analogy, I hope.
Third and most important of all: It allows me to dream and believe that, if I work really hard and become a sucessful responsible citizen, I will someday be able to have my own barely legal russian maid.
I'm, sure you meant the only one without a 7 meter dick rather than 7 km dick. A 7 Km dick would be constantly run over by traffic on some major highway.
BenBurch
Gatekeeper of The Left
The biggest Dick I know of is only 1.73M and is a former vice president of the USA.
Drudgewire
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Bill Thompson
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But wait, there is more. For the porn stars there are a number of problems -- according to some people. Young women and I guess some men get into it for the easy money and then they are stuck. The spend their youths not developing any other career options or skills. Some get into drugs to numb themselves so that they can make it through the sex scenes. They make money but they blow a lot of money and one day they come to a dead end with no place else to go.
If they come from middle america often their closest friends and family (they may feel) have turned their back on them.
I don't know if "Shauna Grant" was a typical story.
pgwenthold
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Or Judy Garland...
(not in porn, but see my edits above and it just as much applies to her)
JFrankA
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She's a typical story about a porn star just as like it's a typical story about a postal employee who shoot up a post office.....
Drudgewire
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Yeah besides Shauna I can only think of three others offhand (Megan Leigh, Savannah, and Alex Jordan). The most recent one being 16 years ago. Not exactly a current epidemic.
Southwind17
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Jeez JFrankA - I offer you an olive twig and you seek to chop my hand off! I gave you every possible option for proceeding (except one - which you show above is unnecessary anyhow) and you suggest we carry on with the style that you've openly crticized me for. How would you like this to play out JFrankA - really?