Whats Wrong With My Honey?

[zooterkin]

I knew the SM&T forum was the right place to get good answers!

So, am I correct in assuming that it could be the honey I made (stole from those that made it) decades ago lasted years on the shelf without crystallizing because it had a different sugar makeup than the honey I buy at the store today? Perhaps the commercial honey comes from bees in specific locations gathering nectar and pollen from plants that are themselves naturally sweeter, making the commercial honey sweeter and more marketable?
?

I think you're right. The nectar collected from certain plants seems to affect how likely honey is to solidfy. Oil seed rape (canola?) nectar is very noticeable for causing honey to become as you described, pale and very viscous quite quickly.

 

[FreshHat]

I buy my honey from a local beekeeper.The difference in flavour compared to the store bought stuff is vast.

Much of the supermarket stuff is imported. It tastes like sugar water compared to the local mom-and-pop apiary, which has a complexity not unlike wine.

Mom and Pop spend their winters in Chile (Mom's native country), and they tell me the Chilean beekeepers dust their hives with flea powder to control bee mites. Some of that powder finds it's way into the honey.

ETA : The honey in my cupboard goes crystally and cloudy during the winter, but that's due to the cool room temperatures I prefer.

 

[Ixion]

I knew the SM&T forum was the right place to get good answers!

So, am I correct in assuming that it could be the honey I made (stole from those that made it) decades ago lasted years on the shelf without crystallizing because it had a different sugar makeup than the honey I buy at the store today? Perhaps the commercial honey comes from bees in specific locations gathering nectar and pollen from plants that are themselves naturally sweeter, making the commercial honey sweeter and more marketable?

So, I'm a victim of the world's sweet tooth?

Not only that, but you might consider the containers you use. If your containers have fewer impurities on the sides than the commercial containers, then that also would help prevent seeding. You can imagine that in a commercial processing plant, it is likely that, while containers and honey would meet or exceed USDA standards, it would be more difficult to control than independent processors. It could even be imagined that plastic containers might lend to crystallization more easily than glass (although I have seen honey crystallize in both).

[Conspiracy]Not only that, but the mention of adding water could aid crystallization makes me speculate that some unscrupulous distributors might water the honey down slightly to extend their product. [/Conspiracy]

On the note about honey spoiling, honey has a very long shelf life. Spoilage usually refers to bacterial growth, and wild yeasts, with enough moisture, could ferment the honey. However, I have also heard about archaeologists eating very old honey (I believe it was honey bottled in Egyptian tombs discovered in the pyramids, but I may be wrong). If the honey didn't have exposure to water or water vapor, I see no reason why it wouldn't keep indefinitely.

 

[shadron]

However, I have also heard about archaeologists eating very old honey (I believe it was honey bottled in Egyptian tombs discovered in the pyramids, but I may be wrong). If the honey didn't have exposure to water or water vapor, I see no reason why it wouldn't keep indefinitely.

While sugar may not break down in the long run (all it could really do is oxidize, if it can find oxygen to do that with), I imagine a lot of the more complex chemicals with make it taste not-like-sugar-water could well decompose over time. Might not taste too good.

 

[Dancing David]

As supposedly heating it repeatedly will do as well.

Sounds like the preinflation universe to me.

 

[macdoc]

Honey is exceedingly complex but I suspect processing negates many of the properties.
It's been used as a wound healer for a long time. Antibacterial properties would seem to be an obvious evolutionary advantage.

Your honey might have been cut with corn syrup as it is behaving funny.

When my local sources honey crystalizes a trip in the dishwasher with dirty dishes is perfect to make it clear and last another 6 months or so in pure liquid form.

Do you know where YOUR honey has been !!!??

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/394053_honey30.asp

 

[casebro]

Not the bottles, or water content. Not adulteration, or temperature.

It's the pH that gets changed with 'refining'/filtering.

From homebrewing, I know how to make 'syrup'. You add a smidge of citric acid to boiling sugar water. The acid breaks the di-saccaride bonds, making sucrose into a mix of glucose and fructose. Seems the resulting syrup won't re-crystallize. It's what is Karo syrup. Jams and jellies don't crystallize either, they are acidic from the fruit.

The point in homebrewing is that breaking the di-saccaride bond make it easier for the yeast to eat the sugar. Seems yeast is weak on the amylase enzymes that do that in plants- it's why we malt and sprout grains to make them sweeter.

ETA: Oh, breaking the di-saccaride bond liberates on oxygen atom. SOooo, to re-bond into sucrose for crysallization, you must need to add oxygen? So airtightness would help? Or does the oxygen come from the H2O in the honey, no matter of air ?

So that answers why home-made honey doesn't, and store bought does. Now I've got to go add some citric acid to my honey, it's got crystals.

 

[joobz]

ETA: Oh, breaking the di-saccaride bond liberates on oxygen atom. SOooo, to re-bond into sucrose for crysallization, you must need to add oxygen? So airtightness would help? Or does the oxygen come from the H2O in the honey, no matter of air ?

You've got this backwards.
you need a water molecule to break the bond. When you form the disaccaride, you liberate a water molecule.

Count the number of oxygen atoms and hydrogen atoms in 2 glucose molecules.
Then count the number of oxygen and hydrogen atoms in maltose. You'll see there's a 2hydrogen and 1 oxygen difference.

 

[CORed]

It seems to me that the squeeze bottle might be a pretty good seed crystal generator. A little residue stays in the nozzle, dries out and crystalizes, and the next time you use it, some of the crystals get carried back into the bottle.

 

[CORed]

Oh. I thought this post was going to be you asking for advice on dealing with your spouse or significant other.

 

[macdoc]

Or does the oxygen come from the H2O in the honey, no matter of air ?

Good explanation and yes being airtight makes a big difference.

My honey is in 1 litre jars and it will crystallize before I finish it ( maybe 2-3 months ) if I leave it open.

Fast trip to the dishwasher fixes it.

 

[CORed]

Honey is exceedingly complex but I suspect processing negates many of the properties.
It's been used as a wound healer for a long time. Antibacterial properties would seem to be an obvious evolutionary advantage.

Your honey might have been cut with corn syrup as it is behaving funny.

When my local sources honey crystalizes a trip in the dishwasher with dirty dishes is perfect to make it clear and last another 6 months or so in pure liquid form.

Do you know where YOUR honey has been !!!??

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/394053_honey30.asp

It's not illegal to cut it with corn syrup, but I don't think you can legally call it "honey" if you do.

Case in point. At a local KFC, they gave me something labels as "honey sauce" (iirc) to put on my bisucit. The principle ingredients listed were corn syrup, honey and caramel color. There may have been artificial flavor listed too. It looked like honey, and tasted sort of like honey.

 

[JJM]

This is simply a matter of a high school experiment. If you make a very concentrated sugar solution (which honey is) it can undergo a physical (not chemical nor nutritional) change as it cools. In some cases the sugar can come out of solution as crystals of the same compound that was in the clear product.

Depending on the product and storage conditions, crystallization can take hours or months. Crystallized honey is as nutritious and flavorful as clear honey. It does have a different "mouth feel;" the texture is different, as is rate of release of the sweetness. However, the basic, nutritional attributes of honey remain the same.

 

[JJM]

Honey is exceedingly complex but I suspect processing negates many of the properties.
{snip}

"Suspicions" lacking reliable, supporting information are, well, suspect.

 

[Madalch]

A little residue stays in the nozzle, dries out and crystalizes, and the next time you use it, some of the crystals get carried back into the bottle.

Honey doesn't dry out.

 

[tesscaline]

Honey doesn't dry out.

Speaking as someone with formal culinary training -- yes, yes it does. It takes longer than, say, sugar water does, but it does dry out. Especially if it's a very very thin coating, like around the threads of a jar top or the tip of a squeeze nozzle that isn't airtight, or in a very arid environment (like the inside of an oven).

In fact, if honey didn't dry out, you couldn't have things like honey glazed ham.

ETA: On the antibacterial properties of honey -- I was just watching animal heroes on animal planet, and the veterinary hospital was using honey on bandages instead of a commercial antibacterial ointment. And then I saw this thread. Fun coincidence!

 

[macdoc]

Originally Posted by macdoc
Honey is exceedingly complex but I suspect processing negates many of the properties.
{snip}
"Suspicions" lacking reliable, supporting information are, well, suspect.

I "suspect" - based on that comment you boil the **** out of your veggies too.
It's just "starch" after all - who cares about trace compounds.....

http://www.honey-health.com/honey-6.shtml

and wine is just grape juice.

Chemical Composition of Honey

Carbohydrates
Unsurprisingly, these comprise the major portion of honey - about 82%. The carbohydrates present are the monosaccharides fructose (38.2%) and glucose (31%); and disaccharides (~9%) sucrose, maltose, isomaltose, maltulose, turanose and kojibiose. There are also some oligosaccharides present (4.2%), including erlose, theanderose and panose, formed from incomplete breakdown of the higher saccharides present in nectar and honeydew.

Proteins and Amino Acids
Honey contains a number of enzymes, including invertase, which converts sucrose to glucose and fructose; amylase, which breaks starch down into smaller units; glucose oxidase, which converts glucose to gluconolactone, which in turn yields gluconic acid and hydrogen peroxide; catalase, which breaks down the peroxide formed by glucose oxidase to water and oxygen; and acid phosphorylase, which removes inorganic phosphate from organic phosphates.
Honey also contains eighteen free amino acids, of which the most abundant is proline.

Vitamins, Minerals and Antioxidants
Honey contains trace amounts of the B vitamins riboflavin, niacin, folic acid, pantothenic acid and vitamin B6. It also contains ascorbic acid (vitamin C), and the minerals calcium, iron, zinc, potassium, phosphorous, magnesium, selenium, chromium and manganese.

The main group of antioxidants in honey are the flavonoids, of which one, pinocembrin, is unique to honey and bee propolis. Ascorbic acid, catalase and selenium are also antioxidants. Generally speaking, the darker the honey, the greater its antioxidising properties.

Other compounds
Honey also contains organic acids such as acetic, butanoic, formic, citric, succinic, lactic, malic, pyroglutamic and gluconic acids, and a number of aromatic acids. The main acid present is gluconic acid, formed in the breakdown of glucose by glucose oxidase. Honey also contains hydroxymethylfurfural, a natural product of the breakdown of simple sugars below pH 5.

and bit of been venom just for spice....

 

[JJM]

Originally Posted by macdoc
"Honey is exceedingly complex but I suspect processing negates many of the properties. {snip}"

My reply "'Suspicions' lacking reliable, supporting information are, well, suspect."

I "suspect" - based on that comment you boil the **** out of your veggies too.

Your suspicions are not reliable.

[Honey's] just "starch" after all - who cares about trace compounds.....

http://www.honey-health.com/honey-6.shtml {snip}

Oh noes, there iz a web site! Sadly, it supports neither your suspicion about processing, nor your statement that honey is just starch. (The data you cite says honey is around 78% sugars, not just starch.)

So, what do you mean by processing, and is there evidence that it "negates many of the properties"?

 

[shawmutt]

All I want to know is if it still as effective in treating gangrene

 

[CORed]

Speaking as someone with formal culinary training -- yes, yes it does. It takes longer than, say, sugar water does, but it does dry out. Especially if it's a very very thin coating, like around the threads of a jar top or the tip of a squeeze nozzle that isn't airtight, or in a very arid environment (like the inside of an oven).

In fact, if honey didn't dry out, you couldn't have things like honey glazed ham.

ETA: On the antibacterial properties of honey -- I was just watching animal heroes on animal planet, and the veterinary hospital was using honey on bandages instead of a commercial antibacterial ointment. And then I saw this thread. Fun coincidence!

Regarding previous poster's assertion that honey doesn't dry out. I'm guessing that maybe it doesn't dry out at high humidity. I live in Denver Colorado, where the humidity is usually pretty low, and often extremely low, and I've seen hard, apparently dry, crystalline honey on jar threads and squeeze bottle nozzles. However, in Denver, most of the time, salt does not clump in salt shakers, sugar doesn't get lumpy in sugar bowls, and potato chips don't get soggy if you leave them in an open bag overnight, yet all of these things happen pretty commonly in locations that commonly have high humidity. So, it seems reasonable to me that honey might be hygroscopic enough that it doesn't dry out at high humidity.