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What we pray for

Heres some bits from the post

"You have to wonder......god'll help every single drunk that simply asks for help.......but he's he's real choosy when it comes to kids with cancer.

He does this with burn patients too

I guess he likes alcoholics a lot more than he like children or burn victims.

I responded to the above by saying:

"What your saying is all people in AA have the drink removed and children with cancer all die? "

A clarification of what I seem to be reading is what Im asking. If it is, what he said. :) Then I did address part of it in another post.

_______________

Your comment is another topic, I will answer with;

my atheist friend did beat alcohol at AA but he subsituted God with a light bulb. Mind you later on he did decide that God had something to say,
 
Kitty,

What Ralph is saying, is that you cannot distinguish between events where God supposedly intervened and where he didn't.. He seems to respond more to requests that could have been easily solved without him..

The tough ones like cancer are more hit and miss.. Exactly what you would expect if God did nothing at all..



There is a clue there..




He also raises the valid question of why God would choose to help a drunk while ignoring a suffering child. How can you view such a God as a moral and just entity?
 
c4ts said:
No no no, Jesus arranged the whole thing.
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Ah! It's OK then. For a moment there I was a little scared, but if it's Jesus doing it, it's good. By definition.


Mosquito
 
Diogenes said:
Kitty,






He also raises the valid question of why God would choose to help a drunk while ignoring a suffering child. How can you view such a God as a moral and just entity?
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There's a woman who writes a weekly religious column in the local newspaper. More a "God loves you" kind of thing rather than a "you're all going to burn in hell" situation.

There was a recent column about the power of prayer. She talked about how convinced she was that it helped and gave some examples of what she saw as absolute PROOF of this.

One example involved a stranger coming along & helping her shovel out her car from a recent snowstorm.

To her---that was divine intervention--not just maybe someone being a nice guy.

Of course we also have the frequent prayer requests on various internet forums......as if God won't answer ONE request but if enough people nag him he'll do something. The "squeaky wheel gets the grease" theory I guess.

Some of these requests are pretty damn trivial IMO-------"I'm unemployed--help me get a job"........"My dog is undergoing surgery tomorrow..please pray for him".




Then I think about that 9 year old girl who was recently raped & buried alive in Florida. Thay said they found her clutching her favorite toy--a stuffed dolphin.......Something about that just tore me up.

I can't even begin to imagine what that little girl suffered before she died and what she was thinking.

Was she praying to god or jesus.......begging them to make this horrible nightmare go away???

Sorry---god was busy------he had to dig someone out of a snowbank.


Yeah---gods will--he works in mysterious ways......but he loves you.....
 
Ralph said:
There's a woman who writes a weekly religious column in the local newspaper. More a "God loves you" kind of thing rather than a "you're all going to burn in hell" situation.

There was a recent column about the power of prayer. She talked about how convinced she was that it helped and gave some examples of what she saw as absolute PROOF of this.

One example involved a stranger coming along & helping her shovel out her car from a recent snowstorm.

To her---that was divine intervention--not just maybe someone being a nice guy.

Of course we also have the frequent prayer requests on various internet forums......as if God won't answer ONE request but if enough people nag him he'll do something. The "squeaky wheel gets the grease" theory I guess.

Some of these requests are pretty damn trivial IMO-------"I'm unemployed--help me get a job"........"My dog is undergoing surgery tomorrow..please pray for him".
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Well, the stranger, you can entertain angels unaware. Really if God was involved then the stranger was perhaps trying to follow to take care of others, because he followed that then he was available to the lady. Did God plan it 200 yrs ago another topic lets not wander too much. If the man was just a good guy then great, still following the help each other even if he doesnt realise it.

Squeaky wheel nah I agree it gets no grease. Prayer focuses one on others problems, maybe your shortcomings, needs, world peace, whatever. God knows what you want, Hes just waiting to hear you figure it out that you need it. Sometimes until we realise it nothing will ever be done about it. Maybe thats why it works for drunks.

Then I think about that 9 year old girl who was recently raped & buried alive in Florida. Thay said they found her clutching her favorite toy--a stuffed dolphin.......Something about that just tore me up.

I can't even begin to imagine what that little girl suffered before she died and what she was thinking.

Was she praying to god or jesus.......begging them to make this horrible nightmare go away???

Sorry---god was busy------he had to dig someone out of a snowbank.
Yeah---gods will--he works in mysterious ways......but he loves you..... [/B]
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The girl I heard about her. What can I say about evil? God didnt put her there, evil did. Someone thinking they were the best and above everyone, couldnt be bothered to care for anyone only themselves. Using the hate within them and taking it out on innocence.

The whole purpose is to remind her and us what a crappy world it is so dont try for hope. Dont try to actually care for one another its useless, thus is the nature of evil to destroy.

The best way to honour her tragedy is to remember that and continue to love and care for those around you. Not to become bitter and hopeless.

I cant answer why exactly God didnt send someone by to find her thats beyond our understanding. Maybe He did but at the last minute they chose not to go to that area. As long as people continue to do evil in this world things will happen. Thats why its important to counter evil with good.

Sorry to break it to basic terms like that but they are the nutshell of what goes on. Should we give up hope no because the result would be evil wins then we all lose.
 
God didnt put her there, evil did.
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You seem to be a nice person Kitty, but give me a break..


Do you think you will be taking comfort in your God if you get raped and buried alive?

This was an innocent child. Either your God was powerless to help her or he chose not to. Pick one!
 
Thankyou but I have to say why is it Gods fault? :confused: He didnt chose for this to happen to her. He left clear instructions for us not to do such things to one another.

Heres a different perspective; Wheres the individuals responsibility in this? Wheres governments, clubs, organizations, UN, protest groups with loud voices, rich and poor, when are we as a society going to stand up to crap like this and say enough! Make some laws with teeth, develop some back bone against it.

We sure want all our freedoms and priviliages to do what we want, as we want. Well this is unfortunately a result of those freedoms. The rapist killer is doing as he wants when he wants.

Everyone wants the cake and eat it too and as soon as something goes wrong they lay it at the feet of God as if its His problem when we were the ones that wanted it all.

He said love your neighbour MORE than you love yourself, but it requires a bit of sacrifice on our parts and we are a bunch of babies that cant handle that. Oh we cant follow a simple instruction of love your neighbour, it might cost me something.

People complicate the whole thing its very simple. Yes its the total pits and I feel horrible for her. I fear something like that happening to anyone. Its scary being a women in this world, I wont park in parkades for that reason. But I could only ask for strength and peace and I would know that whatever happens that day or later on I would be meeting my maker.

And if your interested in justice, what do you think the final judgement is all about. Everyone worries about themselves but forgets that people like Mr killer are likely to be joining their god whom they follow the rules of, since they like him so much.

Gods justice no one gets out of it, no court of trying to prove intent, weak evidence, non admissable evidence, courts are not interested in truth today only what perception can be brought out.
 
Assume God actually exists (and is omnipotent).

So He can either intervene or Won't.

If he intervenes then why can he not do something about the child but is quite happy to help people for minor things?

If he won't or can't intervene, then he doesn't answer prayers. It doesn't matter why not. People who claim to have had prayers answered were just lucky.

I suppose there is a third possibility of a non omnipotent God who can only intervene in small ways or has a limited amount of power to intervene. But this would mean God is bound by natural forces.
 
D'ya know what's really sick?

What if the little girl wasn't a xian?

There's justice for you. You're born, live a brief existence, get raped, buried alive, die and get sent to hell. Thanks a bunch, god.

Mysterious ways indeed.

Hey, at least the killer will go to hell when he dies. That's something I suppose.

Unless he repents on his deathbed.......
 
Some syrup on that waffle Kitty?

Do you think if you tap dance enough, we will forget what the question was?


Either your God was powerless to help her or he chose not to.

Pick one!
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Why is this so hard for you?


Can you make a choice between an apple or a banana, your favorite color, what to wear today ?


Don't you see that people making choices between good and bad, and bad things happening to inocent children can easily be explained by just taking God out of the picture. He isn't required..

God should feel very unnecessary and lonely..
 
Kitty Chan said:
Thankyou but I have to say why is it Gods fault? :confused:










Pretend for a second Kitty Chan that this was YOUR child.


Now lets also imagine a scenario where a group of men were out hunting and came upon this crime as it was being committed.

We have an adult raping a 7 year old child. There is absolutely NO question that something terribly evil is happening here.

You have several adult men---all armed.

It is well within their power to put an end to this horror.

Instead though----they decide to do nothing. In fact--one of them pulls out a videocamera and tapes the event----thinking of course that there's an important lesson here for people so we should preserve the moment.

How would you feel towards these people who had the ability to save your child....but did nothing instead?
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God didnt put her there, evil did.
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Kitty - if a person watched the whole thing transpire through a sniper rifle scope, and didn't pull the trigger - what would you think of that person? What if that person's reasoning was, 'I didn't put her in that position, the evil raper did - so it is not my place to stop it'. ?

Why do you hold a 'loving' god to lower standards than you would any person who was capable of stoppinf this from happening?

So - answer Diogenes' question - was God incapable of stopping it, or did He choose not to?
 
Kitty Chan
Well, the stranger, you can entertain angels unaware. Really if God was involved then the stranger was perhaps trying to follow to take care of others, because he followed that then he was available to the lady. Did God plan it 200 yrs ago another topic lets not wander too much. If the man was just a good guy then great, still following the help each other even if he doesnt realise it.
Click to expand...
and
I cant answer why exactly God didnt send someone by to find her thats beyond our understanding. Maybe He did but at the last minute they chose not to go to that area. As long as people continue to do evil in this world things will happen. Thats why its important to counter evil with good.
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Instead of thinking he was being a nice guy, you have to claim divine intervention in the form of a wandering angel. If you later find out it was just a guy then he was doing gods will by helping others. You’re just falling back on – if it’s good god/jesus did it. If it’s not then it’s all humanity’s fault or a divine mystery.

WOW! Such BS!

He didnt chose for this to happen to her. He left clear instructions for us not to do such things to one another.
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Hmmm, maybe they were just following god’s instructions.
Ex.21:17 "He that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death."
After all 9 year olds have a lot of attitude.

We sure want all our freedoms and priviliages to do what we want, as we want. Well this is unfortunately a result of those freedoms. The rapist killer is doing as he wants when he wants.

Everyone wants the cake and eat it too and as soon as something goes wrong they lay it at the feet of God as if its His problem when we were the ones that wanted it all.
Click to expand...
Nice straw man you’ve got going. People and organizations don’t claim superpowers al la GOD.

Or to put it another way Suffering Disproves God.

Now if you choose to redefine god so that god isn’t omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent then by all means go right ahead.

Ossai
 
Ossai

I think there is a bit of a misunderstanding of what I typed the strangers part was a joke (I should have said so I dont know if it has a basis in scripture, I have a feeling its a christian urban myth) (quit smiling ;) )

Well, the stranger, you can entertain angels unaware.

lol

But (oh after the laughter has died down) Really if God was involved then .....

Over the top I know but dont want to get going on the wrong foot I enjoy talking to you. Whats the point of talking to the choir, hate to say it but I have more inclinations towards some here than choirs anyway. I actually (even thought I dont understand it all) like science and to hear some talk, sigh.

Anyway my cousins are getting in tommorow from England and I have to spruce up the place. I will answer you guys as soon as I get a chance. Gotta think of what syrup to serve on my bs :D
 
ha ha your xian apologetics crack me up

Kitty Chan said:
I think bacteria serve a purpose do they not?
Viruses and cancer perhaps parasites are a result of us eventually facing death. Isnt it said the day we are born we are on our way to die? I dont believe they were part of the original plan.
Adam and Eve were without sickness, it was after the fall or the removal of being with God directly, that they developed problems with illness, etc. The intention was not for them to suffer. But there was conditions set for that circumstance to continue and those conditions were not kept.
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ah the Original Plan...

makes one wonder why would your ALL KNOWING God who supposedly KNOWS everything from the begining of time to the end..
why did he put that damn Tree of knowledge in the Garden in the first place..when He KNEW what will happen,he must have he is All knowing after all aint he?...that Adam and Eve will Fall into sin,
Satan will rebel,people will be wicked and He will need to drown all of them in a big flood and start over again...and so on..
now are you begining to see the contradictions of your bible story yet??? and why your All loving allmighty all perfect G dude cant possibly be real
 
I used to pray and guess the result = I was let down over about 90% of the time. Use that as your new study for prayer and healing. You don't need evidence after all, just have faith, just because I say that i'm right, so you have to accept that.

I never got exactly what I wanted. After awhile I realized that god wasn't listening, so I made a pact with the devil and now I have a tight room. I guess that I don't really mind about going to hell because in the pact with the devil a clause clearly states that I get to become the head hellspawn when I die. So if you're all gonna be angels, then let's prepare for war when the apocalypse begins in five years and not debate right now about this foolish prayer business.

Listen to me, hell is better, satan thinks of all your needs (remember god can veto what the devil does, so god is controlling everything). I'm also getting a jaguar, all gaming systems with acc and games, 15 billion dollars, 50 virgins, a nice huge mansion with all my needs and wants, and a partridge and a pear tree (only the head hellspwan gets this, but the hellspawn soldier does get a much nicer package then the already generous package for the citizens of hell.

P.S. I also just got a exclusive deal to be the spokesman for hell worth not getting burnt if I convert 100 angels (you can join our forces too, hurry so that I don't get burned ).

P.S.S I also found a website that proves that heaven is not glamouraus, but instead you'll all be slaving away in a quary to extract resources for god's new palace. (sorry) . Oh yeah hell has a giant freezer to cool yourself off with if you do get burned, so don't worry.

,Seriously :p
 
Re: ha ha your xian apologetics crack me up

rumblefish said:
ah the Original Plan...

makes one wonder why would your ALL KNOWING God who supposedly KNOWS everything from the begining of time to the end..
why did he put that damn Tree of knowledge in the Garden in the first place..when He KNEW what will happen,he must have he is All knowing after all aint he?...that Adam and Eve will Fall into sin,
Satan will rebel,people will be wicked and He will need to drown all of them in a big flood and start over again...and so on..
now are you begining to see the contradictions of your bible story yet??? and why your All loving allmighty all perfect G dude cant possibly be real
Click to expand...

Because god is not a good man (oops, I mean spirit, sorry I mean father, whatever). When i was about 10 I decided to read the bible starting with genisis of course. I didn't get past that book because of how boring it was, the improbability of it being real, and seeing as to how religion can blind (or as I say blinded by the light). I decided to read something better instead, Tall Tales.
 
Well Rumblefish, welcome to the forum, I promised some others first dibs on my time so I'll get back to you shortly.

________________

nabiscothejerd, what can I say? I guess I better welcome you as your fairly new, as I would not want you to think I was capable of bad form.

I will have to mull over your entirely generous offer of membership. Seems you have it all worked out. I may enjoy partridge especially with some maple syrup, but Im told cats later on just wont have the appetite.

You mention you never did get exactly what you wanted. Did you ever notice a famous song writing duo penned an answer to such questions? They also, address some of the issues I would have with the owner and acceptance into his club you speak of.

Ive heard that the owner tends toward exaggeration. When you do join its front of the line but after a while your only purpose is cleaning the restrooms. Soon after you cant even get in to do that and while you thought you were important, now he wont even give you the time of day.

As for your burning concerns, I would caution you against pyramid schemes whereas you obtain the numbers to join up for memberships. It has been proved time and again its the ones on the bottom do all the work for awards that are always just beyond reach. Only the one on the top has all the benefit. Companies such as Amyway have followed this model with success for years.

It would be more adviseable to seek membership where you were just accepted for what you are. Makes for a more relaxed atmosphere. Its easier when management and oneself are on a first name basis.

I find from this membership information that you are perhaps in error regarding the construction. It is a preplanned community, already in place. As well, apparently the views from the mansions that are in all the neighbourhoods, are second to none.

It will likely lack any amount of competition with the neighbour regarding say which flower garden is best, (as they will all be fine). But Im told the zero stress level from the relaxed atmosphere will be of most benefit. Combined with the managements excellent attention to detail and unending care towards the residents, I can see a eternal friendship in the works.

:) Kitty
 
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