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What we pray for

Independent studies have long found a link between prayer and health or recovery. People who are prayed for — whether they are aware of it or not — tend to have better outcomes than those who are not prayed for.
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We might all like that to be true, but it turns out that these 'studies' are just elaborate frauds or poorly designed tests.
This makes the statement an untruth.
The much-hyped Columbia University prayer study was flawed and suspicious from the start but now has been fatally minted with fraud. The first-named author doesn't respond to inquiries. The "lead" author said he didn't learn of the study until months after it was completed. And now the mysterious third author, indicted by a federal grand jury, has pleaded guilty to conspiracy to commit fraud. All his previous studies must now be questioned.
-The Skeptical Enquirer Sept-Oct 2004 Bruce Flamm
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2843/is_5_28/ai_n6194238
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The other side of this coin is the many who are prayed for and die anyway. - Sometimes gradually and through much suffering.

If there is no truth to any of this, it is just a workable lie that makes us feel good. Is that really enough? Most of the believers here seem to have faith in more than just a 'placebo' kind of God.

I am genuinely curious how to believe again once you know it is just a sugar pill.
 
When you get what you pray for, it's a miracle.

When you don't, it's "part of God's plan".

How convenient.
 
Prayer didn't help this baby.

Maybe it would have helped a little wee bit if they had taken the little now dead tyke to a doctor:
A Johnson County jury found a husband and wife guilty of reckless homicide refusing to seek medical treatment to help their gravely ill newborn daughter, relying instead on prayer.
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http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050513/NEWS01/505130470/1006

Remember, god only helps those that help themselves or somethign to that effect...now god is punishing the parents for being so stupid by telling them they are homicidal and reckless...

Seriously though. Why are parents so convinced of the dangers of doctors that they will go these extremes to avoid them? Well, okay, it's because other religious folk or sCAM folk tell them "there is a better way". Well it wasn't better, and the parents have to pay with a dead child and a conviction.
 
So, I gotta admit, this prayer thing confuses me.

Let's say you are diagnosed with cancer. The prognosis is uncertain, but you must begin treatment immediately.
Now, when people die from such a disease, even though they prayed as did their loved ones, the rationale is often "It was God's will. All part of his plan."
Of course, if the person gets better, God is praised for performing a miracle.

So, shouldn't a good Christian forgo medical treatment and just pray to get better? Surely if God is going to cure you, he shoudn't need medical science to help out. Or is God just a bit player in the process, no more or less relevant than the oncologist who oversees the treatment?

I'm going to guess their aren't many Christians out there who are so convinced of the power of prayer that they will forgo medical treatment and leave their fate in God's hands. (Eros' example being an exception)

How about you Riddick, the guy who started this thread? Would you be so confident in God that you would forgo medical treatment and let God perform a miracle?
Or, am I about to get one of those "it doesn't work that way" lectures?
 
god-jesus.jpg


Only GOD-JESUS can answer prayers, even if the answer is NO!
 
KelvinG said:
So, I gotta admit, this prayer thing confuses me.

Let's say you are diagnosed with cancer. The prognosis is uncertain, but you must begin treatment immediately.
Now, when people die from such a disease, even though they prayed as did their loved ones, the rationale is often "It was God's will. All part of his plan."
Of course, if the person gets better, God is praised for performing a miracle.

So, shouldn't a good Christian forgo medical treatment and just pray to get better? Surely if God is going to cure you, he shoudn't need medical science to help out. Or is God just a bit player in the process, no more or less relevant than the oncologist who oversees the treatment?

I'm going to guess their aren't many Christians out there who are so convinced of the power of prayer that they will forgo medical treatment and leave their fate in God's hands. (Eros' example being an exception)

How about you Riddick, the guy who started this thread? Would you be so confident in God that you would forgo medical treatment and let God perform a miracle?
Or, am I about to get one of those "it doesn't work that way" lectures?
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Ok I will try a answer here.

People get prayer mixed up with tailsmans, they ask God to cure whatever and when He doesnt they get bent out of shape about it. Esssentially they want God to perform stunts for them.

Science may not believe in God , but He believes in science. Think of it this way, IF God is God, one has to figure Hes a fan of science having invented it ;) So, all this talk of science, medicine, religion not meshing is crazy.

As for the doctor, not going is stupid, what if God had encouraged your doctor to be really good at what they do and then you dont go and the doc doesnt get a chance to cure you? Its the old canoe, boat, helicopter scenario.

Being a christian is not a your free from all trials membership, the bible says the rain falls on the good and the bad. Its just about the strength to keep on going through it.

Oh and about the praising when God does something. Well, surprising to most the praising is once again good or bad. Sounds funny to say thanks for the problems. But taking your mind off troubles does have a good effect on stress. Thats where all this positive affirimation comes from.

God never promised to stop it all, just give strength to get through it and perhaps give enough of yourself to help others through theirs.
 
Kitty Chan said:
Science may not believe in God , but He believes in science. Think of it this way, IF God is God, one has to figure Hes a fan of science having invented it ;) So, all this talk of science, medicine, religion not meshing is crazy.
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Along this very same line...

Think of it this way: if God is God, one has to figure he's a fan of bacteria, viruses, cancer, parasites, (etc), having invented them.

If "God's plan" is for you to die,
No amount of praying will save you.

If "God's plan" is for you to recover,
Your prayers are irrelevant. You will recover regardless of the amount or sincerity of prayer.

If "God's plan" is to let you die unless X number of people sincerely pray for you,
He's an egotistic sadist (see also: Book of Job, Story of Abraham in Genesis) and doesn't deserve your worship.
 
One of the things you'll hear at AA or 12 twelve step meetings is that God will remove your desire to drink. All you have to do is ask him....and of course be sincere in your desire to stop drinking & drugging.


Then---you go spend some time in a childrens cancer ward. You see things that break your heart----kids--their parents--their friends --a lot of them pray and they ask all their friends to pray too.

Despite all this prayer though---sometimes the child doesn't make it. I got to see some friends of mine go through this a few years ago.

You have to wonder......god'll help every single drunk that simply asks for help.......but he's he's real choosy when it comes to kids with cancer.

He does this with burn patients too for some strange reason. People get horribly burned and suffer terribly for weeks or even months and then after all that--they die. To be honest with you--being an alcoholic--at least in the early & middle stages -- isn't anywhere near as bad as having 2nd & 3rd degree burns over 80% of oyur body.

I guess he likes alcoholics a lot more than he like children or burn victims.


I really hope I'm right about him not really existing because if he does---he's one sadistic sonuvabitch...
 
Ralph

What your saying is all people in AA have the drink removed and children with cancer all die?
 
Mosquito said:
:eek:
I read this, and I got the impression that Chick (or his "christian friend") arranged somebody's death for $3000. Anybody else read that into it?

It was like a "subconscious" confession (or whatever the terminology is).


Mosquito
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No no no, Jesus arranged the whole thing.
 
Acrimonious said:
Along this very same line...

Think of it this way: if God is God, one has to figure he's a fan of bacteria, viruses, cancer, parasites, (etc), having invented them.
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I think bacteria serve a purpose do they not?

Viruses and cancer perhaps parasites are a result of us eventually facing death. Isnt it said the day we are born we are on our way to die? I dont believe they were part of the original plan.

Adam and Eve were without sickness, it was after the fall or the removal of being with God directly, that they developed problems with illness, etc. The intention was not for them to suffer. But there was conditions set for that circumstance to continue and those conditions were not kept.

Thats why I said christianity is not free from all trials, we have to deal with what has been dealt. It was not meant to be that way but it is what it is. So its all about getting back to the garden in a way. What is all our literature about? struggle and strength and coming back to a place we can call home, where once again things are good.

Not the same as it was, because it can never be the same but good never the less, maybe even better than the original.

Gods plan is not for one to die, recover, or have x people pray for you. Or kill children and save drunks. None of this was ever said, this is only peoples speculations and misunderstandings.

He wants to find all the lost sheep, the whole point of Jesus ministry was to reconcile everyone Him and in doing so we would be reconciled to each other. He is a catalyst if you will to get us to stop looking at ourselves and see Him. And by doing so then we are not hung up on ourselves and then see each other.

Like I said before; God never promised to stop it all, just give strength to get through it and perhaps give enough of yourself to help others through theirs.
 
Kitty Chan said:
Ralph

What your saying is all people in AA have the drink removed and children with cancer all die?
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You really should read that post again..

Try this..

All you have to do to stop drinking, is pray and be sincere in your desire to stop...



Now, take away the ' pray ' part...

Strangely, the results are the same..

Go figure..
 
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