What to do with prostitutes

[Greatest I am]

We have not agreed that the underlying causes of prostitution are bad because we have not agreed on the underlying causes of prostitution. You have asserted without evidence that child abuse leads to prostitution and people here have answered that: 1) Not all child abuse leads to prostitution; and 2) Not all prostitution is caused by child abuse. You have failed to show a logical or factual connection between the two. Until you come up with some statistics, people can reasonably treat the phenomena as separate and unrelated things.

Even so, just because an underlying cause of something is bad does NOT necessarily mean that the thing itself is bad. There is little doubt among historians that the Holocaust was a major cause in the recognition of the State of Israel a few years later. Does the contention that the establishment of Israel was a good thing mean that the Holocaust was a good thing? Does the contention that the Holocaust was a bad thing mean that establishing the State of Israel was a bad thing?





Perhaps but this is so wildly unrelated to your original point that it has no place in this thread.

You asked why prostitution was bad. I answered and now it does not relate.
OK

As to your former, I have given stats.

Read any book on the topic of either drug abuse or prostitution and you will see the connection. Clear as the nose on your face.

Regards
DL

 

[Jon.]

You asked why prostitution was bad. I answered and now it does not relate.
OK

No, you answered as to why child sex abduction is bad, and why exploitation of people who were abused is bad. You did not explain why prostitution is bad. You might want to give that a try.

As to your former, I have given stats.

Read any book on the topic of either drug abuse or prostitution and you will see the connection. Clear as the nose on your face.

Regards
DL

But you still haven't answered the question about whether it is prostitution that is bad in and of itself, nor the question about whether it would be okay if it were only prostitutes who were not abused (and even your own statistics would suggest that this is most of them). And where did drug abuse come from?

 

[Greatest I am]

No, you answered as to why child sex abduction is bad, and why exploitation of people who were abused is bad. You did not explain why prostitution is bad. You might want to give that a try.



But you still haven't answered the question about whether it is prostitution that is bad in and of itself, nor the question about whether it would be okay if it were only prostitutes who were not abused (and even your own statistics would suggest that this is most of them). And where did drug abuse come from?

I indicated that making commodities of our selves was bad.
Man not in control of his libido is bad.
All of the reasons they become prostitutes are bad including putting ones self through school with the trade.
The decease and corruption that flows from it is bad.
If you need more read o book.

Regards
DL

 

[Jon.]

I indicated that making commodities of our selves was bad.

In that case, you have not answered my earlier post about why the lawyer (sorry, Loss Leader), the engineer or the professional athlete making commodities of themselves (or more precisely, their abilities) is not bad. Or is it? Perhaps we should stop commodifying our skills, and just go back to being subsistence farmers or hunter/gatherers.

Man not in control of his libido is bad.

You seem to be implying that the existence of prostitution necessarily means a lack of control of libido in the human male. Why do you make this connection? Do you not think that prostitution could be seen as a control measure - get the men to "vent" their libidos with professionals rather than raping or killing?

All of the reasons they become prostitutes are bad including putting ones self through school with the trade.

All generalizations suck.

Seriously, though, the only reason I could see for saying this is that prostitution is in and of itself a bad thing - a proposition you haven't been able to defend in the least, and when pressed, you change the subject. Every time.

The decease and corruption that flows from it is bad.

"Decease" (ie. death) or "disease"? Either way, if it were possible to separate the negative consequences you associate with prostitution from the act of providing sexual services for money, would that change your mind? If not, then leave the negative consequences out of it and focus on why you think prostitution is wrong per se.

If you need more read o book.

Which one(s) do you recommend?

 

[Greatest I am]

In that case, you have not answered my earlier post about why the lawyer (sorry, Loss Leader), the engineer or the professional athlete making commodities of themselves (or more precisely, their abilities) is not bad. Or is it? Perhaps we should stop commodifying our skills, and just go back to being subsistence farmers or hunter/gatherers.

GIA wrote
Here you compare trained skills to unskilled people.

You seem to be implying that the existence of prostitution necessarily means a lack of control of libido in the human male. Why do you make this connection? Do you not think that prostitution could be seen as a control measure - get the men to "vent" their libidos with professionals rather than raping or killing?

GIA wrote
You make my point of control. So little of it that these men will turn to crime.
How professional do you need to be to do what mother nature gives to all. Professional 12 year old. Ya.

All generalizations suck.

Seriously, though, the only reason I could see for saying this is that prostitution is in and of itself a bad thing - a proposition you haven't been able to defend in the least, and when pressed, you change the subject. Every time.

GIA wrote
And here I was starting to think that I had just about done you in. I detected some reaching.

"Decease" (ie. death) or "disease"? Either way, if it were possible to separate the negative consequences you associate with prostitution from the act of providing sexual services for money, would that change your mind? If not, then leave the negative consequences out of it and focus on why you think prostitution is wrong per se.

Gia wrote
How can I leave the negative out of it and prove it negative. Goof. Smiles all around on that one. You are reaching.

Which one(s) do you recommend?

Pardon my Franglais disease and illness.
Check what low morals has done in South Africa.

Regards
DL

 

[Achán hiNidráne]

I indicated that making commodities of our selves was bad.

Everyone with talents and the physical capability to use them is a "commodity;" the doctor, the construction worker, the airline pilot, the fast-food fry-cook, etc.

I suggest you learn some basic economics.

Man not in control of his libido is bad.

What do you mean by "Man not in control of his libido." How does having access to one more sexual outlet lead to "Man" losing control of their sexual desires?

Any component psychologist will tell you that, for the most part, repressing your sexual urges is what is bad. Not everyone is as fortunate in attracting a mate as others, and masturbation only puts a band-aid on the situation. For the lonely human being who needs sexual release, what other alternatives exist?

All of the reasons they become prostitutes are bad including putting ones self through school with the trade.

Not every college student is cut out for four years of working summers at McDonalds for minimum wage. Have you SEEN tuition rates?

The decease...

I'm assuming you mean "disease." It's called a condom, and most societies where prostitution is legal make sure that sex workers have access to them along with health care and birth control.

...and corruption that flows from it is bad.

What "corruption" are you speaking of?

If it is public corruption, that is a direct result of the prohibition of prostitution. Black markets don't try to bribe, influence, or bully government to overlook their activities over LEGAL goods and services. If you want another example, look no further than this country's (USA) moronic attempt to ban alcohol which continues today in the form of the oppressive "War On Drugs." Al Capone didn't become powerful because booze was legal in the 1920s, just as the drug cartels don't make their money today on legal cocaine or heroin.

If you are raising the canard of "moral corruption," that depends on your "morals." To an uptight prude, prostitution is indeed moral corruption. To someone with a more enlightened notion of sexuality, it's no big thing.

Why should the rest of society suffer for the sake of anyone's sexual hang-ups?

If you need more read o book.

Given your handle and your anti-sex attitudes, I have this sneaking suspicion that that "o book" you want us to read is the one you thump weekly in some church. Turning to The Bible or any other work of religion for moral guidance is sort of like citing an episode of Star Trek as a resource on astrophysics.

In the meantime, I highly recommend that you get a book on English grammar and read that!

 

[Achán hiNidráne]

Check what low morals has done in South Africa.

Regards
DL

"[L]ow morals" according to whom?

 

[slingblade]

Check what low morals has done in South Africa.

Oh, I've seen just what the low morals of the Afrikaaners and Boers has done to those people, and is still doing.

(taking bets that this goes right on by....)

 

[Jon.]

Here you compare trained skills to unskilled people.

In that case, change it to construction workers or janitors or whatever unskilled workers you want. You will still have to provide a workable definition of "exploitation" that includes prostitutes and excludes other people working for a living if you want to say that the prostitution is bad because of exploitation.

You make my point of control. So little of it that these men will turn to crime.
How professional do you need to be to do what mother nature gives to all. Professional 12 year old. Ya.

See? There you go again, bringing age into it. "Professional" in this sense just means doing it for money.

And I don't understand your first point here. Are you saying that prostitution is a crime, and men lack control to the point that they will turn to the crime of hiring a prostitute? Because (a) that's circular reasoning; and (b) it's not a crime everywhere and is not a crime even in Canada unless the hiring is done in a public place. Or are you referring to my reference to rape? If so, please explain your point further, focussing on how getting rid of prostitution will reduce sexual assault rates.

GIA wrote
And here I was starting to think that I had just about done you in. I detected some reaching.

Ad hominems will get you nowhere; nor will hand-waving.

How can I leave the negative out of it and prove it negative. Goof. Smiles all around on that one. You are reaching.

I'm asking you to answer the earlier question: if the negatives of disease and corruption could be taken out of the prostitution industry, would you still consider prostitution wrong?

If your answer is yes, then it is not those negatives that cause you to consider prostitution wrong and you need to explain the real reasons. You also need to explain why other industries that cause disease and corruption (alcohol, tobacco, automotive, etc.) are not wrong, unless of course you think they are.

If your answer is no, then you would agree that, for instance, a law that provides that prostitutes have to be checked regularly for disease, use condoms every time, and protects them from unscrupulous employers ("pimps") would be welcome.

Pardon my Franglais disease and illness.
Check what low morals has done in South Africa.

Regards
DL

What have low morals in South Africa done? How do you separate that from poverty and after-effects of the apartheid regime, to name just two other factors?

And you still didn't recommend a particular book to me.

 

[Jon.]

Turning to The Bible or any other work of religion for moral guidance is sort of like citing an episode of Star Trek as a resource on astrophysics.

Actually, looking to the Bible for instruction in the 21st century is more like trying to fix your Toyota Prius with the instruction manual from a Model T Ford.

 

[Greatest I am]

Everyone with talents and the physical capability to use them is a "commodity;" the doctor, the construction worker, the airline pilot, the fast-food fry-cook, etc.

I suggest you learn some basic economics.

GIA wrote
The above require some type of training. The only thing a hooker needs is a little sign that say rub here. Good training.

What do you mean by "Man not in control of his libido." How does having access to one more sexual outlet lead to "Man" losing control of their sexual desires?

GIA wrote
It was suggested that if we eliminate hookers, men would turn to crime to satisfy their lust. I call that loss of control.
Real men can get real women.

Any component psychologist will tell you that, for the most part, repressing your sexual urges is what is bad. Not everyone is as fortunate in attracting a mate as others, and masturbation only puts a band-aid on the situation. For the lonely human being who needs sexual release, what other alternatives exist?

GIA wrote
Lonely people want to replace loneliness with affection. Friction is not affection.

Not every college student is cut out for four years of working summers at McDonalds for minimum wage. Have you SEEN tuition rates?

GIA wrote
Perhaps her deadbeat dad might help. Or is he spending it all on hookers.

I'm assuming you mean "disease." It's called a condom, and most societies where prostitution is legal make sure that sex workers have access to them along with health care and birth control.

GIA wrote
They ave condoms in South Africa.

What "corruption" are you speaking of?

If it is public corruption, that is a direct result of the prohibition of prostitution. Black markets don't try to bribe, influence, or bully government to overlook their activities over LEGAL goods and services. If you want another example, look no further than this country's (USA) moronic attempt to ban alcohol which continues today in the form of the oppressive "War On Drugs." Al Capone didn't become powerful because booze was legal in the 1920s, just as the drug cartels don't make their money today on legal cocaine or heroin.

GIA wrote
The corruption I speak of is mostly law enforcement personnel that take advantage and even their pay. As to the drug corruption yous speak of above are you speaking of the CIA controlling the drug and gun markets?
Not too many drug lords hitting the courts lately. Or is it government interference with DEA in Mexico?
Pot is still California's largest cash crop is it not.
Good drug war all right.

If you are raising the canard of "moral corruption," that depends on your "morals." To an uptight prude, prostitution is indeed moral corruption. To someone with a more enlightened notion of sexuality, it's no big thing.

GIA wrote
Well I beat a 18 year drug rap in 89 and I want to legalize victimless crimes. I am quite liberal by most standards.

Why should the rest of society suffer for the sake of anyone's sexual hang-ups?

GIA wrote
Whose hang up are we talking about here.
I thought the issue had more to do with human dignity.

Given your handle and your anti-sex attitudes, I have this sneaking suspicion that that "o book" you want us to read is the one you thump weekly in some church. Turning to The Bible or any other work of religion for moral guidance is sort of like citing an episode of Star Trek as a resource on astrophysics.

GIA wrote
I am learning of morality as we speak. Never go to church though.

In the meantime, I highly recommend that you get a book on English grammar and read that!

I read and write two languages badly.
What can I say.

I do know I am right though in my position when debaters start looking for cheap personal flaws to attack instead of the issue.

Regards
DL

 

[toddjh]

GIA, I'd like to ask you a couple hypothetical questions.

Imagine a future where we've eliminated poverty, drug abuse, child abuse, and slavery.

1. Do you think prostitution will no longer exist in this future?, and

2. If prostitution does still exist, why is it bad?

 

[toddjh]

If we agree that all these causes for prostitution are bad then when does prostitution become good.

I didn't say it was good, I just said you haven't successfully shown that it is bad. I also said that it was impossible to eliminate, but that's just a factual statement, not an endorsement.

For the record, I don't think prostitution is necessarily bad. I think it serves an important purpose in society, and we tamper with that at our own risk.

When is placing a price tag on a human good.

No one is placing a price tag on a human -- that's slavery, and we all agree that's bad. Prostitution is completely different, just an exchange of money for a service, like anything else. It's only irrational and puritanical attitudes about sex that lead people to see it as anything else. Well, that, and the fact that our current anti-sex laws push it firmly into the world of organized crime.

I submit that the buyer here is just as much a slave to His desire as the seller. The seller may be healthier mentally because she at least recognizes that fact while the buyer is too blind to see his own slavery.

Oh, I agree completely. Prostitutes are the ones doing the exploiting -- they may, in turn, be exploited themselves by a pimp or somesuch, but that's a separate issue. If you want to see who's exploiting who, all you have to do is look at which way the money flows.

Is this supposed to be the good part of prostitution? Should we not aspire to better things?

Sure, I think most prostitutes should aspire to better things. I also think most janitors and McDonald's workers and Walmart cashiers should aspire to better things. But a) not everybody is capable of living up to their aspirations, and b) somebody has to do those jobs.

 

[Loss Leader]

Not every college student is cut out for four years of working summers at McDonalds for minimum wage. Have you SEEN tuition rates?

.Perhaps her deadbeat dad might help. Or is he spending it all on hookers.

This exchange more than any other convinces me that GIA has no underlying thesis or, at least, no ability to sort out his various beliefs and isolate one for argument.

In his comment he has mixed up deadbeat dads with abusive fathers. He has confounded the poor father whose bad parenting is a cause of adults entering the field of prostitution with the immoral male who frequents prostitutes. He has once again completely confused adult and children prostitutes. He has ignored Mark's point that some women might enjoy prostitution more than minimum wage jobs. And he has implied a phenomenon without any reason to believe it exists. Is there even one girl on the planet earth whose father's sex spending destroyed her dreams for college and forced her into a life of prostitution?

I mean besides Lindsay Lohan.

 

[AmyWilson]

I see nothing with prostitution. We women have our needs and desires and they should be satisfied.

 

[Davidjayjordan]

Not all prostitutes, come from abuse as many just like sex and others just like the money, and take advanatage of it and then drift to other careers or college etc.

Prostitution in essense is just suppky and demand, and fulfilling a human need for sex. It doesn't have to be degrading at all to either party.

Sexually is not automatically sinful, as the Lord created it, even though man and woman can screw it up sometimes.

There is nothing, inherantly wrong with prostituion.... and yet as you mention the world and the system make it dangerous and all human activity can cause further abuse.

http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/Isprostitutionright.html

.

 

[calebprime]

Gosh, the enlightened, guilt-free, economically sophisticated arguments here have opened my eyes!

That's what I can do for a living!

Become a service-provider to the lonely ladies, men, and assorted pets who want a man like me!

Middle-aged, a little fat, rather shy.

If you give me weed, whites and wine
and you show me a sign,
then I'll be willin'
to be movin'

 

[Loss Leader]

And this thread disappears in a puff of logic.

 

[calebprime]

I apologize if I haven't read the whole thread.

I certainly hope that someone has pointed out that most prostitutes are miserable--in relation to what they would want for themselves--because it is usually a rough, demeaning business.

Not because it--logically speaking--has to be that way.

Simply because it is that way.

 

[calebprime]

That should have read: I apologize for not reading the whole thread.

I was responding to the Amy Wilson and DJJ posts.