What to do with prostitutes

[Loss Leader]

If they are as necessary as you say it would be because of a weakness in men.

What evidence do you have that the male desire to pay for sex is a weakness of character?

Are men so week as to not even attempt to strengthen their character?

What evidence do you have that weaknesses of character can be strengthened?

The oldest professions were hunting and gathering. Prostitution came later.

What evidence do you have that hunting and gathering predated prostitution?

For that matter, the statement seems illogical on its face. Our ancestors lived in a harsh and dangerous environment back in Clan of the Cave Bear times. Women, usually physically weaker and saddled with young children, generally could not defend themselves or provide enough for themselves and their children. It seems logical that they traded the one commodity that took no energy to gather (sex) for the protection and generosity of whichever men could afford them. The really hot women got the better hunters and the crack whore h. heidelbergensis women got the less capable men. That this system could branch out and co-evolve into both loving marriage on the one end and out-and-out prostitution on the other seems reasonable at least to me.

No wonder women have lost respect for us.

Please cite any evidence you have that women have lost respect for men.

We have lost respect for ourselves.

Please cite any evidence you have that men have lost respect for themselves.

Be it a pimp or be it a father taking the dollars does she really split hairs as to what she will be called.
I may have generalized too much. I just don't see any difference.
Exploitation by any other name is still exploitation.

You were speaking about pimps who prostitute adult women on the one hand and fathers who abuse their young children on the other. Do you really not see a difference between those two clasifications? Is the difference between an adult woman and a young child really just splitting hairs?

 

[Loss Leader]

I am a lawyer. I use my ability to reason, to gather and assess evidence and to argue eloquently (I hope) for the benefit of my clients, whether or not I personally believe in their causes. I get paid for this. Nobody is forcing me to work as a lawyer. Am I being exploited?

As a fellow lawyer please allow me to implore you to just leave us the hell out of this.

 

[Thunder]

Some argue that prostitution and a looser social regulations about sex is what keeps the West from developing suicide bombers...

 

[Greatest I am]

I am a lawyer. I use my ability to reason, to gather and assess evidence and to argue eloquently (I hope) for the benefit of my clients, whether or not I personally believe in their causes. I get paid for this. Nobody is forcing me to work as a lawyer. Am I being exploited?

My friend is an engineer. She uses her facility with math, her ability to design buildings and other abilities of which I know little for the benefit of her clients, whether she likes the buildings or not. She gets paid for this. Nobody is forcing her to be an engineer. Is she being exploited?

Another friend is a professional hockey player*. He uses his ability to stickhandle, to shoot a puck and bodycheck to entertain people, to the benefit of his employer, whether or not he enjoys playing hockey. He gets paid for this. Nobody is forcing him to be a hockey player. Is he being exploited?

Compare us to an adult prostitute. She (I will assume female as you seem to be doing so) uses her ability to give sexual pleasure and to simulate her own sexual desire and pleasure for the benefit of her clients, whether or not she is personally attracted to them. She gets paid for this. Assuming nobody is actually forcing her to work as a prostitute (as others have noted repeatedly, this is an entirely different question), is she being exploited?

You have an annoying habit of confusing issues with one another. Pick an issue and stick to it. You say that exploitation is bad. It certainly is a word with negative connotations. Does that automatically translate into prostitution being wrong? Only if you can show that all prostitution is exploitation. And that will depend on how you define exploitation - and be careful when you draw your definition that you don't capture the lawyer, the engineer and the professional athlete.

*Not really. But I do have a friend who played in the Olympics for Canada's women's hockey team.

Always pleased to annoy. It may generate thought.

I started the post speaking of abusive situations leading many young people into the trade. On that note let me say that no one abused you into your trade. No one abused your friend into hers. Good for you guys.

Not so good for the 12 year old virgin in the Philippines or your 14 year old poor neighbour.

No one kidnaps lawyer for their abilities. Or athletes for that matter.

It is unmanly for men to go about doing other men's young daughters. Dicks have no conscience this is true but men should have.

I would prefer to live in a world where there are some morals and ethics.
I do not like taboos but to have open season on children seems unmanly.
If men do not help and protect children, who will.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

That makes no sense. Approving of prostitution does not lead to approving to incest.

GIA wrote
Knowing that half the prostitutes are there because of abuse and incest may.

There are several professions which are inappropriate for a family member to be a client/patient. Heck, even in retail, the company my wife works for forbids a family member to sell to another family member.

GIA wrote
Not on moral grounds.

Other more reasonable examples include: medical care, psychological care, social services, and investment services.

GIA wrote
Not on moral grounds.

Legal government-regulated prostitution is far preferable to a situation in which prostitution is illegal, simply because it will always exist anyway. And if a person wants to sell their sexual services, then who are we to intervene and deny them that right?

GIA wrote
Then we never clean up our act in the home.
Children have a right to not be abused and a right not to be exploited.

Legalization wold no doubt be good for adult prostitutes but we are talking more of children here.

Why is sex the one thing we can give away freely, but not sell?

Because we associate it with love. That is what is supposed to make us moral and ethical and look out for each other and each others children.
It is hard for a man to help children one day while paying for their services at night.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

GIA wrote
Is this a court evidence, evidence, evidence.
Try logic instead.

What evidence do you have that the male desire to pay for sex is a weakness of character?

GIA wrote
It shows a lack of confidence in winning over a non prostitute.
Where is man the hunter. Now we have man the dollar.

What evidence do you have that weaknesses of character can be strengthened?

GIA wrote
Dumb question.

What evidence do you have that hunting and gathering predated prostitution?

GIA wrote
Nature always places survival before procreation. Want evidence.

For that matter, the statement seems illogical on its face. Our ancestors lived in a harsh and dangerous environment back in Clan of the Cave Bear times. Women, usually physically weaker and saddled with young children, generally could not defend themselves or provide enough for themselves and their children. It seems logical that they traded the one commodity that took no energy to gather (sex) for the protection and generosity of whichever men could afford them. The really hot women got the better hunters and the crack whore h. heidelbergensis women got the less capable men. That this system could branch out and co-evolve into both loving marriage on the one end and out-and-out prostitution on the other seems reasonable at least to me.

GIA wrote
Hog wash.

Please cite any evidence you have that women have lost respect for men.

GIA wrote
Ask them fool.

Please cite any evidence you have that men have lost respect for themselves.

GIA wrote
Men who think that a hooker sees a man approaching them is delusional. She sees dollars approaching. Reducing yourself to a bit of coke is to loose respect for yourself.

You were speaking about pimps who prostitute adult women on the one hand and fathers who abuse their young children on the other. Do you really not see a difference between those two classifications? Is the difference between an adult woman and a young child really just splitting hairs?

Not when the adult woman was likely abused or coerced in the first place.
What is the difference between a father abusing his 14 year old or going out to pay for some other fathers 14 year old.
Do you see a major difference excluding the fee?

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Some argue that prostitution and a looser social regulations about sex is what keeps the West from developing suicide bombers...

The same are the reasons that they come at us.
Perhaps they are tired of seeing westerners going to the third world and buying their women and children.

Regards
DL

 

[ponderingturtle]

Yes, because there is nothing fundamentally wrong.

Right and wrong are purely human creations, and are always defined by culture.

As both are equaly right, why would one be better than the other? Why try to change morals as any moral is just as correct as any other?

Moral correctness is finaly decided by force, if you can force your morals on someone you are right to do so.

 

[Greatest I am]

As both are equaly right, why would one be better than the other? Why try to change morals as any moral is just as correct as any other?

Moral correctness is finally decided by force, if you can force your morals on someone you are right to do so.

You can force people to do what you want.
You cannot force them to think as you do without convincing them that you are correct.

Regards
DL

 

[Loss Leader]

It is unmanly for men to go about doing other men's young daughters.... I do not like taboos but to have open season on children seems unmanly. If men do not help and protect children, who will.

It is hard for a man to help children one day while paying for their services at night.

What is the difference between a father abusing his 14 year old or going out to pay for some other fathers 14 year old.

So, GIA, can we assume from these posts that you have now focussed your objection on child prostitution? You keep mixing up child abuse, child sex slavery, adults who were abused as children and adult prostitution. In these successive quotes, however, you seem to have honed in solely on child sex slavery.

If you would like to limit this conversation to child sex slavery then I think you'll find widespread agreement that children should not be used as sexual objects by adults. You'll probably find widespread agreement that minors as old as 17 should not be used as sexual objects by adults even if the minors consent.

Beyond that, however, you're going to have to provide some sort of verifiable reasons for your position. You have yet to do so.

Is this a court evidence, evidence, evidence?
Try logic instead.

So idiotic that it's my new sig line.

 

[Greatest I am]

So, GIA, can we assume from these posts that you have now focused your objection on child prostitution? You keep mixing up child abuse, child sex slavery, adults who were abused as children and adult prostitution. In these successive quotes, however, you seem to have honed in solely on child sex slavery.

If you would like to limit this conversation to child sex slavery then I think you'll find widespread agreement that children should not be used as sexual objects by adults. You'll probably find widespread agreement that minors as old as 17 should not be used as sexual objects by adults even if the minors consent.

Beyond that, however, you're going to have to provide some sort of verifiable reasons for your position. You have yet to do so.





So idiotic that it's my new sig line.

I am flexible to any dialog.
As you can see from other posters, there are many branches to this tree.
I think that these things are all interrelated especially if we look at the various situations around the world.

But yes, I have a personal focus on abuse in the home and how men, to my way of thinking are shirking their responsibility to the family. Note that we even needed to implement rather harsh laws for divorced fathers who did not want to take financial responsibility after a divorce.

Men do not feel for their children in our culture the way I think we should.
As you can see though, most of the dialog here has focused on the rights of prostitutes, but few mention the children and their rights.

Regards
DL

 

[toddjh]

Men do not feel for their children in our culture the way I think we should. As you can see though, most of the dialog here has focused on the rights of prostitutes, but few mention the children and their rights.

That's because the thread is called "What to do with prostitutes," not "What to do about child sex slavery." If you started a thread about the latter subject, I'm sure every single person here would agree it's despicable and needs to be stopped.

Prostitution involving consenting adults, on the other hand, is neither immoral nor something we need to stop.

 

[Greatest I am]

That's because the thread is called "What to do with prostitutes," not "What to do about child sex slavery." If you started a thread about the latter subject, I'm sure every single person here would agree it's despicable and needs to be stopped.

Prostitution involving consenting adults, on the other hand, is neither immoral nor something we need to stop.

As noted above, to me it all comes together.
I agree that I should have been more focused in my opening.

As to stopping prostitution outright or legalization, I am undecided.
I look at a city, any city, with a red light district and then imagine it without that red light district.
I see the latter as a better looking city. Not for the physical appearance but for it's ---psyche-- might be the right word.

Regards
DL

 

[toddjh]

As noted above, to me it all comes together.

But you haven't given us any reason to believe that prostitution is anything more than an effect and not a cause.

As to stopping prostitution outright or legalization, I am undecided.
I look at a city, any city, with a red light district and then imagine it without that red light district.

Good luck with that. Prostitution is already illegal in most places, and those red light districts still exist. Harsher punishments will just drive it even further into bad parts of town, make it more dangerous for both the women and their clients, land a lot of people in jail for no good reason, and put money in the pockets of crooked law enforcement officials who look the other way.

I see the latter as a better looking city. Not for the physical appearance but for it's ---psyche-- might be the right word.

Let's solve the problem of homelessness by banning bums from all our cities, too.

 

[Greatest I am]

But you haven't given us any reason to believe that prostitution is anything more than an effect and not a cause.

GIA wrote
Prostitution is probably the cause of many undesirable things but I had not been trying to speak to that issue. I have digressed enough already to get chastisement from some.
I see prostitution as more of effect with abuse as the cause of much of it.

Good luck with that. Prostitution is already illegal in most places, and those red light districts still exist. Harsher punishments will just drive it even further into bad parts of town, make it more dangerous for both the women and their clients, land a lot of people in jail for no good reason, and put money in the pockets of crooked law enforcement officials who look the other way.

GIA wrote
I agree. Do you agree though that the city would look better--psychy--without it?

Let's solve the problem of homelessness by banning bums from all our cities, too.

I understand that some cities are trying this in the US.
Canadian cities in the past were giving free bus tickets to try and do the same.

Poverty may be the root cause and if rich nations do not start to chare more than current levels, poor countries will come to bite us in the rear.

Do you know any words that will change the mind set of the world.
Please utter them and make it so.

Regards
DL

 

[toddjh]

I see prostitution as more of effect with abuse as the cause of much of it.

So what makes you think prostitution itself is so bad, then? Trying to reduce abuse by eliminating prostitution is like trying to cure an infection by taking aspirin for the pain.

I agree. Do you agree though that the city would look better--psychy--without it?

I don't think there's any point in speculating about impossible situations.

I understand that some cities are trying this in the US.
Canadian cities in the past were giving free bus tickets to try and do the same.

Yeah, because they don't care about solving the problem, they just want it to be somebody else's problem.

Do you know any words that will change the mind set of the world.
Please utter them and make it so.

"Abracadabra."

 

[Greatest I am]

So what makes you think prostitution itself is so bad, then?

GIA wrote
I see prostitution growing in large part from the abuse of children and from the fact that to me it shows a weakness in men. Otherwise you end up clouding issues. IE. A recent president who cannot relate a blow job to sexuality.
Is this a good example for our youth. No.

Trying to reduce abuse by eliminating prostitution is like trying to cure an infection by taking aspirin for the pain.

GIA wrote
If all you have is aspirin, it is a pain drug.

I don't think there's any point in speculating about impossible situations.

GIA wrote
I take that as agreement. You would have stated it if it was otherwise.

Yeah, because they don't care about solving the problem, they just want it to be somebody else's problem.

GIA wrote
Agreed.

"Abracadabra."

Let's see if that works.

Regards
DL

 

[toddjh]

I see prostitution growing in large part from the abuse of children and from the fact that to me it shows a weakness in men.

Okay, which is what I said: it's an effect, not a cause. I agree the causes are bad. We all agree the causes are bad. What is wrong with prostitution?

If all you have is aspirin, it is a pain drug.

And all it does it make things worse by removing a warning sign without doing anything at all to actually solve the underlying problems.

I take that as agreement. You would have stated it if it was otherwise.

I would've stated my agreement if I agreed. I just don't think there's any point in speculating about a hypothetical situation that could never come to pass. Successfully eliminating prostitution from a large city would require such drastic changes to society, biology, and human nature that I would have no idea what civilization would be like anymore. It would be such a huge science-fiction scenario that I have no idea if such a city would be good or not.

 

[Greatest I am]

Okay, which is what I said: it's an effect, not a cause. I agree the causes are bad. We all agree the causes are bad. What is wrong with prostitution?



And all it does it make things worse by removing a warning sign without doing anything at all to actually solve the underlying problems.



I would've stated my agreement if I agreed. I just don't think there's any point in speculating about a hypothetical situation that could never come to pass. Successfully eliminating prostitution from a large city would require such drastic changes to society, biology, and human nature that I would have no idea what civilization would be like anymore. It would be such a huge science-fiction scenario that I have no idea if such a city would be good or not.

If we agree that all these causes for prostitution are bad then when does prostitution become good. When is placing a price tag on a human good.
Are humans now just a commodity. If we are then slavery was never healthier. We can all own slaves, just for a while. Isn't that nice!

I submit that the buyer here is just as much a slave to His desire as the seller. The seller may be healthier mentally because she at least recognizes that fact while the buyer is too blind to see his own slavery.

Is this supposed to be the good part of prostitution?
Should we not aspire to better things?

Regards
DL

 

[Loss Leader]

If we agree that all these causes for prostitution are bad then when does prostitution become good.

We have not agreed that the underlying causes of prostitution are bad because we have not agreed on the underlying causes of prostitution. You have asserted without evidence that child abuse leads to prostitution and people here have answered that: 1) Not all child abuse leads to prostitution; and 2) Not all prostitution is caused by child abuse. You have failed to show a logical or factual connection between the two. Until you come up with some statistics, people can reasonably treat the phenomena as separate and unrelated things.

Even so, just because an underlying cause of something is bad does NOT necessarily mean that the thing itself is bad. There is little doubt among historians that the Holocaust was a major cause in the recognition of the State of Israel a few years later. Does the contention that the establishment of Israel was a good thing mean that the Holocaust was a good thing? Does the contention that the Holocaust was a bad thing mean that establishing the State of Israel was a bad thing?

I submit that the buyer here is just as much a slave to His desire as the seller. The seller may be healthier mentally because she at least recognizes that fact while the buyer is too blind to see his own slavery.

Perhaps but this is so wildly unrelated to your original point that it has no place in this thread.