What They're Teaching Saudi Kids

Sorry, Bob, I've spent a fair amount of time in Alabama and rural Florida. While I never spent a Sunday with the Pentacostals, I've dealt with them on other levels and there's nothing that even comes close to comparing. If your experiences differ, I'd love to hear more, of course.
Spend a Sunday with them then. If you dare. What you hear from them in public might just be a bit restrained.

I have sat through a couple of church services that included lots of random 'speaking in tongues' by congregants. That was the least wierd part. Very fundamentalist.

Turns out that tolerance for those with other beliefs was not popular. At all. There were no jihad calls, but they knew that there was a visitor in attendance.
 
I mean jeeze, how long are you supposed to be mad about the Crusades? My great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandparents on my dad's side were enslaved by Egyptians. But you know what? I'm over it, and so is my sister.

Well, if they hadn't joined the Crusader army of Louis VII, they wouldn't have been enslaved by the Egyptians in the first place so they really had only themselves to blame.
 
Wow, you know, I went to Sunday school for a few years as a kid. I don't recall anything along those lines. How about you elaborate? Or is this another case of "they did it in the 14th century, therefore it's a valid tool for flimsy moral equivalency today" kind of thing?
There ya go.

Also don't forget most Christians are fundamental extremists and will be pounding on your door any sec.

Similar brilliance to follow. Film at 11. :thumbsup:




:rolleyes:
 
Okay, let's do a thought experiment.

Let's take the text from the link in the OP that shows what Muslim kids are being taught and reverse it. Where it says "Christians," we change it to "Muslims," where it says "the prophet," we change it to "the savior," where it says "Muhammad," we change it to "Jesus," and so forth.

Now, imagine that you find the following not only in private Christian schools in the U.S., but in the public schools as well. And imagine that it was not just in some public school, but in all of them. And imagine that those texts were published not just with the approval of the U.S. government, but with its full backing and financing:


Now, who still wants to say, "Well, we do the equivalent thing in America..."?

:thunderous applause:

Bravo BPSCG.
 
Because you're an attention whore?

I can't think of any other reason that one would write a reply declaring that he won't write a reply. Can you?
LMAO

PS: the ignore feature is your friend. :cool:
 
I think you just made it perfectly clear what other reasons there are.

Must've missed it. Why not enlighten me with another "why should I respond" response? I enjoy watching irony in action, even your poor execution of the art.

Besides, you need your post count to bolster your imagined integrity; Lord knows your content isn't doing the job.
 
A depressing irony

They hate, loathe, and despise us...but they sell us oil and expect us to defend them from invasion.

It's sickening. It's also scary, because this teaching is energizing suicide bombers and Muslim fundamentalists to cause chaos across the world.
 
No, they didn't. For the most part, anyway; Saddam had some al Qaeda contacts before the war. But you're right, they were scattered all over the middle east and Africa. But they did exist; al Qaeda did not come into existence because of the Iraq war. All the war did was prompt them to gather in one place (where they're easier to kill).

Sure Iraq had contacts with al Qaeda before the war. Lots of governments did. Of course, contacts can range anywhere from a telephone call or text message all the way to actual material support.
The point is, that al Qaeda was not operating in any substantial way in Iraq until after the US invasion of Iraq.

Yes they did. The difference is that indigenous Iraqi terrorists actually ran the government. Or how else would you describe Saddam and his thugs?

While the pre-war government or Iraq was powerful and repressive, it was hardly a terrorist form of government. If it was, then it would have been impossible for Iraq to produce all of the oil it did before the war started and that is why Saddam avoided getting involved with al Qaeda because he knew that he would never be able to control them.

Again, al Qaeda existed before the invasion; all the invasion did (other than overthrow Saddam and give Iraq at leasgt a fighting chance to become a legitimate democracy) was give al Qaeda a place to go and fight the infidels.

That is true, however one should note that the invasion has done a great deal more than simply provide convenient targets for al Qaeda.
It has also proved to be real distraction of US foreign policy which has enabled other governments (like the "Axis of Evil" nations such Iran and North Korea) to do some of the things they that have been wanting to do.
It has driven up the cost of oil which has helped make some of the nations we have issues with (such as Iran and Syria) a good bit richer.
It has driven up the Federal Budget Deficit to record highs, thus making other nations (such as China) rather wealthy at our expense.
And so forth and so on.

Assuming that claim is true - and I'd love to see your evidence of that - do Christians go around slaughtering Jews these days? Does anybody go around slaughtering Jews these days?

Well, yes, there is one group of people that goes about slaughtering Jews. Can you explain what that group's grudge against the Jews might be? I hadn't heard about the great Jewish Crusade...

Slaughtering of Jews these days? No, fortunately that really does not happen anymore.
However, there has been a great deal Jew slaughtering in fairly recent history such as the Pogroms of Czar Nicholas II in the early 1900s (as done by devout Eastern Orthodox Christians), and the Nazi Holocaust of the 1940's (many Nazis who were directly involved considered themselves to be good Christians). More recently, there has been a substantial resurgence of anti-Semitism in Eastern Europe and Russia, as well as numerous anti-Semitism groups elsewhere (KKK, neo-Nazis, etc. who also consider themselves to be good Christians) which does show itself in acts of isolated anti-Jewish violence.

It may seem hard for you to belive, but there are still plenty of people who do actually blame Jews of today for the killing of Jesus. I know because there are a few of these people in my family.

Uh, yeah. Actually, I have some references that will have to wait until I get back home; the facts about the Crusades aren't as cut-and-dried as your wikipedia links suggest.

Well good reading to you then! Also, I was not trying to present the facts about the Crusades being cut-and-dried, because that is not the case; I was simply providing you with some elementary data that you appeared to lack.

If you really want more data about the Crusades there are any number books and documentaries about the subject that you will have to study yourself and I hope that in doing so you will develop some understanding of your enemy.
 
Sorry Crossbow, I hate to beat the same dead horse but you say the same thing everyone does WRT advertising. You don't know what you don't know. You're not SUPPOSED to know what you don't know. Odds are, you probably wouldn't care about what you don't know.

That said, Zig is right about a poke at the "don't comment if you haven't been there" POV. ;)



Sure, it's the difference between molding one consumer's choice and an entire segment of consumers choices. At the micro level (i.e., you) it makes no difference. You're still part of the equation and operate within it, no matter how much you choose to believe or not believe in it.



Perfectly; it always was. If it makes you feel any better, I'm part of that machinery and not even I am immune to its effects... in spite of my well-attuned sense of consumer cynicism.

Thanks so much for clearing that up!

I was not trying to be obstinate in this discussion, I had simply thought that your original statement about the power of advertising was a tad overstated.
 
Just remember this next time you hear someone say that our presence in Iraq is what's creating terrorists. Nope.
A nope by proclamation, and contrary to the opinions of counter-terrorism experts such as Scheuer and Clark. (Citations available on request.)
 
"Called on it?" You never even asked about it. Here, let me show you what you could have done:

"Ziggurat, can you please link to the UNDP survey results?"

Easy, simple, straightforward, unambiguous. You didn't do that, and now you're pissed that I couldn't read your mind and figure out what you wanted? Well, I appologize. Here you go:
http://www.iq.undp.org/ILCS/overview.htm
Knock yourself out.

Iraq Living Conditions Survey 2004

... The larger part of the survey took place in April and May 2004, while fieldwork in the governorates of Erbil and Dahouk was carried out in August 2004.

...


Sooooo, you use data that is 25 months to 21 months out of date and use this information to show that I am an "idiot".

Well thank you so very much! It is no wonder why you did not provide your data source when you wrote such a flaming post.

I expect that is about as much logic and sense as one could expect from a stupid person like Ziggurat.
 
Spend a Sunday with them then. If you dare. What you hear from them in public might just be a bit restrained.

I have sat through a couple of church services that included lots of random 'speaking in tongues' by congregants. That was the least wierd part. Very fundamentalist.

Turns out that tolerance for those with other beliefs was not popular. At all. There were no jihad calls, but they knew that there was a visitor in attendance.

Back in the day I fell in with some Pentecostals. I was killing time in a video arcade when this really cute girl approached me and invited me to a bible study/prayer meet. At the meeting, one by one, they would say a normal prayer in English, then they would “feel moved” to conclude “in tongues”, which meant praying something in incomprehensible gibberish, then they would search my face for my reaction to this “miracle.”

That first meeting was followed by a series of bible study sessions after. The speaking in tongues was creepy but harmless. I asked them why the biblical speaking in tongues was when everyone in a multi-national audience understood the speaker in their native language while modern speaking in tongues was just the opposite, speaking in gibberish nobody could understand. They said something about the needs of modern times being different from ancient times, which didn’t seem like a very satisfying answer.

Their actual beliefs were not really any different (as far as I could tell) from the Baptists I grew up with. When it came down to it, they still loved the sinner even if they hated the sin, and nothing they said would lead one to violence. If you came away with an impression they were more prone to violence then that, I wonder if maybe it’s because you never got over being frightened by their speaking in tongues.
 
The House of Saud made a devil's bargain with Wahhabism. The Wahhabis would provide "legitimacy" for their seizure of power in the peninsula in return for social and religious control. Now they are caught by the implications of this policy. Wahhabism says that all social and economic problems are caused by not practising "pure" Islam, so the obvious conclusion to any frustrated middle or lower class Saudi looking at the problems there is that the House of Saud is not practising proper Islam. Solution? Violent fundamentalist revolution.

What they are teaching in schools is a symptom, not a cause, of the problem. That's why the Danish cartoons were so useful, as they provided a pressure valve. The danger is, at some stage, the Saudis will completely lose control of the demon they created themselves, if it's not happening already.

Jason Burke's excellent book "Al Qaeda" gives a very good history of Saudi Arabia and Wahhabism, it's well worth a read. I'm currently reading a history of the English Civil War, and it's striking how similar some of the pronouncements by religious millenarian extremists then are to those of Muslim fundamentalists today. I guess the world is never short of those willing to kill their neighbour for God.
 
The house of Saud have been Wahhabi for pretty much as long as there have been Wahhabis. Mr Wahab's daughter married into the family.

Wahhabism isn't theologically that different from any other branch of Islam - all islamic theology is literalistic and considers the text immutable. Main difference is their willingness to kill other Muslims, after condemning them as apostates.


Didn't at least two senior round head officers think they were the messiah in the civil war? Must have been a good idea to keep them apart.
 
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Sooooo, you use data that is 25 months to 21 months out of date and use this information to show that I am an "idiot".

The UNDP survey was pretty contemporary with the Lancet numbers, which you have relied upon. But the date of the various statistics isn't why I called you an idiot. It's because you made weird and wrong assumptions about what the numbers I presented actually meant. You said "If 25,000 Iraqis have been killed as you say (but for some reason you do not count the deaths of Iraqis in the military)," despite the fact that the UNDP numbers DID include military deaths. Where did you ever get the idea that they didn't? It didn't come from anywhere but your own head. If you just didn't know what the number represented, you should have asked. Instead, you jumped to a wrong conclusion. And I called you an idiot for that.

Well thank you so very much! It is no wonder why you did not provide your data source when you wrote such a flaming post.

No, I'm afraid it was simple laziness on my part. Laziness is a sin I will freely admit to.

I expect that is about as much logic and sense as one could expect from a stupid person like Ziggurat.

Really, Crossbow. When you want to insult my intelligence, please, please, PLEASE try to at least show a modicum of creativity. That insult was simply tedious to read. It was flat and uninspired, the sort of retort you'd expect from a flustered second grader. I'm sure you're capable of doing better. Here, I'll even give you an example:

"I wouldn't expect better logic from Ziggurat, since he's only just made the transition from punching those burger and fries pictures on the cash register to actually stringing together letters on a real keyboard to form words. One step at a time, Zig."

See? Isn't that so much more biting, and interesting to read too? Now you give it a try. Just remember: no profanities. If you have to resort to profanities to insult someone, it just means you don't have the right number of chromosomes.
 
Wahhabism isn't theologically that different from any other branch of Islam - all islamic theology is literalistic and considers the text immutable. Main difference is their willingness to kill other Muslims, after condemning them as apostates.

I'm no expert, and if you are sure of your statement then I'll accept that, but I had thought that Wahhabism was considerably more puritanical than most Sunni practices. My flatmate is Sunni and reckons they are outside the larger Islamic mainstream (I mean the non-Arabian Islamic world) but are using Saudi funds to buy influence, through the construction of these Madrassas. That seems to be what is happening in Afghanistan, Chechnya and Iraq, none of which had any Wahhabism before the various conflicts, as far as I've read.

I'm not so sure the text is immutable either - there are contradictory passages in the Koran (eg, kill the infidels Vs don't kill the infidels) and it seems to be up to the imams which passages they focus on. So a hate-mongering extremist can cherry-pick just as easily as a peaceful type.

Regarding the Roundheads, haven't come across that bit yet, but I wouldn't be surprised! Fascinating period of history though.
 
The UNDP survey was pretty contemporary with the Lancet numbers, which you have relied upon. But the date of the various statistics isn't why I called you an idiot. It's because you made weird and wrong assumptions about what the numbers I presented actually meant. You said "If 25,000 Iraqis have been killed as you say (but for some reason you do not count the deaths of Iraqis in the military)," despite the fact that the UNDP numbers DID include military deaths. Where did you ever get the idea that they didn't? It didn't come from anywhere but your own head. If you just didn't know what the number represented, you should have asked. Instead, you jumped to a wrong conclusion. And I called you an idiot for that.

Well now, I was just looking over your original post (post #15 in this thread) and it certainly seems to me that for some reason you do not want to consider the deaths of people in the Iraqi military to be included in the death counts of the nation of Iraq. You stated that I was using data that was "outdated and inaccurate" and then you immediately went on to the issue of Iraqi military deaths even though the data I used was more accurate and more current than the data you relied on.

If I misinterpeted meaning, then perhaps it is time that you wrote your posts a bit clearer.

No, I'm afraid it was simple laziness on my part. Laziness is a sin I will freely admit to.

Thanks for admitting at least one of your obvious sins!

See above issue with post #15, for example.

Really, Crossbow. When you want to insult my intelligence, please, please, PLEASE try to at least show a modicum of creativity. That insult was simply tedious to read. It was flat and uninspired, the sort of retort you'd expect from a flustered second grader. I'm sure you're capable of doing better. Here, I'll even give you an example:

"I wouldn't expect better logic from Ziggurat, since he's only just made the transition from punching those burger and fries pictures on the cash register to actually stringing together letters on a real keyboard to form words. One step at a time, Zig."

See? Isn't that so much more biting, and interesting to read too? Now you give it a try. Just remember: no profanities. If you have to resort to profanities to insult someone, it just means you don't have the right number of chromosomes.

That is true enough! I am not very creative when it comes to issuing insults and if you want to follow my posts, then I am afraid that it is something that you will have to get accustomed to.

As for me, I prefer to work and think, and avoid your qualities of stupidity, ignorance, arrogance, anger, and laziness. While I am sure that your qualities have enabled you to develop considerable skills with creative insults (as your excellent example shows), however if I were to share your qualities then I would be brought down to your level and that is place that I do not wish to be (creative insulting skills notwithstanding). So thank you and I hope that you understand.
 

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