What They're Teaching Saudi Kids

[BPSCG]

Peace, love, and tolerance.

 

[Cheesejoff]

I found this particular section ironic:

"Jihad in the path of God -- which consists of battling against unbelief, oppression, injustice, and those who perpetrate it -- is the summit of Islam"

Thye should be battling against themselves.

 

[fabian_lidman]

Another generation of perfectly innocent children brainwashed. It's a pity.

 

[BPSCG]

Just remember this next time you hear someone say that our presence in Iraq is what's creating terrorists. Nope. They're being created in first grade. And we'll never be rid of them until "our friends, the Saudis" and other Muslim governments stop breeding them.

 

[Tricky]

I found this particular section ironic:

"Jihad in the path of God -- which consists of battling against unbelief, oppression, injustice, and those who perpetrate it -- is the summit of Islam"

They should be battling against themselves.

Isn't the USA dedicated to battling oppression and injustice? And don't we invoke God in a number of our patriotic songs and prose? With the exception of "battling unbelief", this could be the same thing they teach in America. And "battling unbelief" is trying to get a piece of the action here too.

 

[pipelineaudio]

Isn't the USA dedicated to battling oppression and injustice? And don't we invoke God in a number of our patriotic songs and prose? With the exception of "battling unbelief", this could be the same thing they teach in America. And "battling unbelief" is trying to get a piece of the action here too.

Yes, this is exactly the same thing

I'll be back later, were going to go stone my neighbor for converting to christianity

According to the book we need to make sure the stones arent to small to cause pain, nor so large as to cause quick death

 

[Just thinking]

And to think, this is after things were toned down.

Just what was in those texts before?

 

[SuperCoolGuy]

"Undeterred by Wahhabism's historically fringe status, Saudi Arabia is trying to assert itself as the world's authoritative voice on Islam -- a sort of "Vatican" for Islam, as several Saudi officials have stated-- and these textbooks are integral to this effort."

American Muslims tend to recognize this "Vatican" effort by Saudi Arabia. The straightforward determination of religious holidays ends up being a stupid moon sighting contest that Saudi always wins since those "western" countries can't be trusted.

Technically, there should be no "Vatican" or centralized religious authority since Islam is suppose to be simple adherence to the Quran by each individual. But somebody's got to decipher the rules, I guess.

Wahhabism was something I never heard of as a muslim, yet in hindsight, the most ardent and "religious" Muslims I knew of spoke and thought along the lines of wahhabism.

Wahhabism ends up being merely Islamic bravado. The bigger a jerk you can be, the better a wahhabist.

 

[a_unique_person]

Wahhabism ends up being merely Islamic bravado. The bigger a jerk you can be, the better a wahhabist.

Sums up the exremist xians I have met, too. It's like a competition.

And Wahabism has been around in Saudi for years, it was way the Sauds hoped to keep the place a kingdom under their rule. Surprise, surprise, Wahabism preaches against overthrowing the government.

 

[Jocko]

Sums up the exremist xians I have met, too. It's like a competition.

Wow, you know, I went to Sunday school for a few years as a kid. I don't recall anything along those lines. How about you elaborate? Or is this another case of "they did it in the 14th century, therefore it's a valid tool for flimsy moral equivalency today" kind of thing?

And Wahabism has been around in Saudi for years, it was way the Sauds hoped to keep the place a kingdom under their rule. Surprise, surprise, Wahabism preaches against overthrowing the government.

So you approve of US support of the Saud family? Or would you rather see the Wahabis formally in charge (as opposed to the de facto cultural dominance they enjoy today)?

 

[Crossbow]

Just remember this next time you hear someone say that our presence in Iraq is what's creating terrorists. Nope. They're being created in first grade. And we'll never be rid of them until "our friends, the Saudis" and other Muslim governments stop breeding them.

I think that you are significantly overstating the one thing and understating the other.

School textbooks do not do all that much to influence adult actions. If that were the case, then all those years of anti-American propaganda distributed in the textbooks used by the USSR public education system would have resulted in a vast hatred of all things American in the former USSR. Never the less, the citizens of those countries threw off the Communist governments and destroyed the propaganda as soon as they could do so.

In the other case, the USA killing over 100,000 Iraqis based on a rationale that was built on lies as told by our born again Christian president has done far more to incite anti-USA violence than any group of textbooks could ever do.

 

[Manny]

In the other case, the USA killing over 100,000 Iraqis based on a rationale that was built on lies as told by our born again Christian president has done far more to incite anti-USA violence than any group of textbooks could ever do.

I wonder if people making up the number of dead out of whole cloth might be an element.

 

[BPSCG]

School textbooks do not do all that much to influence adult actions.

So spending 6-7 hours a day in school for 12 or so years didn't have much influence on the kind of adult you became?

What did, then?

If that were the case, then all those years of anti-American propaganda distributed in the textbooks used by the USSR public education system would have resulted in a vast hatred of all things American in the former USSR.

I'm not an expert on what was in Soviet-era schoolbooks, but I'm going to guess that whatever anti-American propaganda that was in them didn't include teaching Russian kids that Americans were unclean, not to be associated with, and ultimately killed in pursuit of the True Religion. Correct me if I am mistaken.

Never the less, the citizens of those countries threw off the Communist governments

No, the U.S. challenged the biggest communist state to an arms race that ultimately led to that state's collapse.

 

[Crossbow]

I wonder if people making up the number of dead out of whole cloth might be an element.

The figure used was hardly made up sir.

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

Minimum Max
37,848
Maximum
42,216

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/10/29/iraq.deaths/

Study puts Iraqi toll at 100,000

Friday, October 29, 2004 Posted: 1:10 AM EDT (0510 GMT)

LONDON, England -- Public health experts have estimated that around 100,000 Iraqi civilians have died since the United States invaded Iraq in March last year.

...

Of course, this report is about 17 months old, so the figure of 100,000 Iraqis being killed could be much higher by now.

 

[Ziggurat]

In the other case, the USA killing over 100,000 Iraqis based on a rationale that was built on lies as told by our born again Christian president has done far more to incite anti-USA violence than any group of textbooks could ever do.

We've been over this before, Crossbow. The Lancet numbers are simply unreliable. The best sampling survey estimate for casualties due to the war is from the UN Development Program survey, which sampled over 20 times as many households and didn't skip any provinces like the Lancet study did. It arrived at a much smaller figure of around 24,000 dead (IIRC), and with much smaller error bars (the error bars on the Lancet study were so huge that they include even the lower bound of the UNDP study). So why are you still repeating outdated and inaccurate information when better information has become available since then? You're a tool, Crossbow.

Another point is that BOTH number includes civilians and combatants (terrorists, Iraqi military under Saddam, and Iraqi security forces), and also do not distinguish between Iraqis killed by coalition forces and Iraqis killed by other Iraqis.

 

[Crossbow]

So spending 6-7 hours a day in school for 12 or so years didn't have much influence on the kind of adult you became?

I do not think that it did.

At the grade school I went to we would start every day with a prayer and reciting the 'Pledge of Allegiance', my family and I went to church every week, and my father was minister. Yet I turned out be a person rather critical of the government and religion.

What did, then?

I have found that events, facts, research, experience, travel, have far, far more impact on person than does any amount propaganda regardless of who the sponsor of it may be. In my life, I have found that is also the case with most people as well.

I'm not an expert on what was in Soviet-era schoolbooks, but I'm going to guess that whatever anti-American propaganda that was in them didn't include teaching Russian kids that Americans were unclean, not to be associated with, and ultimately killed in pursuit of the True Religion. Correct me if I am mistaken.

Well, I am not an expert in Soviet-era textbooks either, but I have read several books about the USSR and for several years ALL of the textbooks had a picture of Stalin on the inside front cover. Whereas books about history and current events described how the West, religious elements, capitalists, others were out to "destroy the mother country", bring back serfdom, and turn the people into slaves in order to make money from their labors.

No, the U.S. challenged the biggest communist state to an arms race that ultimately led to that state's collapse.

Exactly so! And yet all of their vast and well-funded propaganda efforts could not change reality. I should think that would tell a person something.

 

[zenith-nadir]

From the article:

Prince Turki al-Faisal, the Saudi ambassador to the United States, has worked aggressively to spread this message. "The kingdom has reviewed all of its education practices and materials, and has removed any element that is inconsistent with the needs of a modern education," he said on a recent speaking tour to several U.S. cities. "Not only have we eliminated what might be perceived as intolerance from old textbooks that were in our system, we have implemented a comprehensive internal revision and modernization plan."

Well as we all know now and as the article stated:

These claims are not true.

The Saudis - Syrians, Iranians, Palestinians - think we in the West are as gullable as their own and would never bother to investigate something that Prince Turki al-Faisal promises up and down is not happening...They just expect us to capitulate to their "royal" decrees.

This is just another reality check when one is dealing with the Saudis...

The apes are Jews, the people of the Sabbath; while the swine are the Christians, the infidels of the communion of Jesus."

"The clash between this [Muslim] community (umma) and the Jews and Christians has endured, and it will continue as long as God wills."

Sorry to disagree with some JREFers but that kind of rhetoric was never taught to me at school in Grade eight, nine or ten...or at my synagogue..or at home. To compare this rhetoric to American "patriotic songs and prose" is woo.

 

[BPSCG]

I do not think that it did.

At the grade school I went to we would start every day with a prayer and reciting the 'Pledge of Allegiance', my family and I went to church every week, and my father was minister. Yet I turned out be a person rather critical of the government and religion.

So blind acceptance of religion and government is all that your tried to teach you? And you rejected it?

You started getting educated and socialized beginning at age 18?

Exactly so! And yet all of their vast and well-funded propaganda efforts could not change reality. I should think that would tell a person something.

Yeah - that the masses in the Soviet Union did not "throw off the communist government," as you put it.

 

[TriangleMan]

Just for the record I now live in a Wahhabi nation (Qatar) and while it is conservative in many respects I've heard from people that it is like Amsterdam compared to Saudi Arabia. I'm not entirely sure Wahhabi is to blame here, fundmentalism in any religion appears to breed intolerance.

Some of the examples given in the article may be out of the Qu'ran; I remember reading in it that Jews were "cursed by God" and Christians were "led astray" - not sure why. Maybe some of the other things in the textbook were part-Qu'ran part generous-helping-of-intolerance.

 

[Jocko]

I do not think that it did.

At the grade school I went to we would start every day with a prayer and reciting the 'Pledge of Allegiance', my family and I went to church every week, and my father was minister. Yet I turned out be a person rather critical of the government and religion.

Crossbow, this is precisely what people say about advertising. Ask anyone, and they'll give you a litany of reasons for their consumer choices, but will always remark that they "aren't influenced by advertising."

And they are, to a man, categorically and utterly wrong in this respect.