What Skeptic means

[SirPhilip]

As if its ok to question but not everything. For people who question and think it can be daunting to be in a situation where one person says A is true and the "SKEPTIC" says NO A is not true B is true. And the debate goes in circles, with the Skeptic never doubting or challenging his own position. Nor being OPEN to it being challenged. I tend to question everything and wondered if there are others who have the same experience is seeing Skepticism treated as a position rather than a method.

I'm still skeptical of your skepticism, and we still don't know if you have a cat or not.

 

[truethat]

Something about this statement makes me uncomfortable... maybe it's a sacred cow!



No True Scotsman?



This is potentially disingenuous, because how do we know what others have already looked into? My wife accused me of not liking anything new, when I didn't like country music. She didn't seem to acknowledge that I had heard country music before I met her. It's not like it was "new" to me and I was being closed-minded. In fact, I've enjoyed some newer country tunes (think Big n' Rich ).



Most of us don't have the time in life to examine everything, and again, perhaps we've already examined some things.



On the whole, I don't get flipped out about others' religious beliefs. In fact, in general, it doesn't even come up in conversation. What I am interested in thinking about is when someone tries to convince me that their point-of-view is correct.

As Dilbert once glibly asked (at the expense of a good date): "Since when is ignorance a point-of-view?"



I think you'll find both dogmatic and liberal-minded skeptics here. In fact, I think you'll notice both patterns of thought in the same individual on different days, in different moods and on different issues.

It is just as much a mistake to say that JREF skeptics are closed-minded and cynical as you seem to think it is for JREFfers to say that they are always perfectly rational.

Excellent!!! That's a great quote.

Btw I don't suggest that JREFers are closed minded and cynical, if I thought that I wouldn't have started the thread, I would have just left the site. But being interesting in how people think, I am trying to wade through the hostility to get to the thinking on here.

 

[Darat]

I am not ever not wrong. I don't think like that. And I have never said that people who disagree with me are stupid or simple etc. I said that people who play games and attack personally are doing this. Calling me names or picking fights and having the idea that there is RIGHT and WRONG, to me is a bit juvenile and ridiculous.

No that is not correct - for example in the snippet I quoted from you above the fuller quote is:

I'm interested in examining everything. Which is why I don't tend to get flipped out about people presenting religious points of view even though its utter nonsense in my personal point of view, I'm interesting in seeing what it means to other people.

I've noticed that this is very confusing to simple thinkers. They have A and B and that's it, they aren't capable of seeing beyond that so everything becomes a fight.

Could it not be that people find your statements or conclusions confusing not because they are "simple thinkers" but that yourstatements and conclusions are actually confusing?

As for calling names or picking fights - I suggest you re-read your exchanges with just me in this thread, in which you started by stating that I was being "defensive", you then moved onto a response that was nothing but a sarcastice misrepresentation of my posts:

That is such a lame reply that I actually sprayed coffee all over my keyboard laughing.

Oh ok Darat. I stand corrected. You and your little Greek dictionary are certainly more knowledgeable than a person who speaks Greek.


Never mind.

I could go on but I think your quotes above make my point for me.

...snip...

No one is ever completely right or completely wrong. I'm interested in seeing how people come to their conclusions.

...snip...

Yet when I actually went to some lengths to explain my reasoning and conclusions you responded with the quote above i.e. with sarcasm and a misrepresentation of my reasoning and conclusion.

 

[Darat]

...snip...

Darat, for example asks how is evolution a sacred cow.

...snip...

No I didn't - I asked for evidence that it is a sacred cow.

 

[Phlebas]

Right so maybe we should use something like ....oh I don't know.....someone who actually SPEAKS the language.

And here you continue with this nonsense. You bitch at us for playing semantic games, but you just. won't. let. it. go.

Fine. Your husband is Zeus. What he says, goes. The word "skeptic" comes from Greek. As does everything else. I could really use a gyro right now.

I dont' care if it means Skeptic or not to you the point of the OP is HOW do you approach skepticism. The derailment of that idea onto a game of semantics is silly to me but the other posters would not go forward until that point was addressed. Why did YOU stop at if, if it was no concern to you.

I gave you the two things that interested me about it, which you conveniently ignore in your quest to question everything. But from my POV, you were as much an obstruction as anyone else on the semantics thing.

The point of him saying that is just an idea. That some people treat skepticsim as a position rather than a method. The article I posted makes a good point as well

Of course it's a method. It's basically the application of the scientific method to all aspects of life. A skeptic is one who does that. Being skeptical is the process of doing that. Skepticism is the view that doing so is the best way to learn.

This is how I am skeptical. I tend to think and rethink everything. I don't take a position and stick with it.

That doesn't necessarily make you skeptical. That could just make you scatterbrained. You pick the best answer that fits the available data, then re-evaluate when you get new data or better analyzing tools.

Darat, for example asks how is evolution a sacred cow. Well in that we are not to question it. If we question evolution we are immediately branded an idiot a fool, we have the "scientific theory" means something different than theory mantra thrown at us again and again.

That's just silly. Of course we're allowed to question it. In fact, it was questioning that led to Darwin's initial theory, and all the legions of enhancements that have been made in the 150-odd years since.

What makes you an idiot and a fool is just dismissing evolution without accounting for why all the evidence fits with evolution so well.

As if its ok to question but not everything. For people who question and think it can be daunting to be in a situation where one person says A is true and the "SKEPTIC" says NO A is not true B is true. And the debate goes in circles, with the Skeptic never doubting or challenging his own position. Nor being OPEN to it being challenged.

I forget -- is this a red herring or a strawman?

Whomever has the evidence wins. As for your your semantics argument, Darat has the better evidence, since you have just your report of your husband's assertion. (At least, until we realized your husband is Zeus. Sorry Darat.)

I tend to question everything and wondered if there are others who have the same experience is seeing Skepticism treated as a position rather than a method.

There likely is. Maybe if you asked that instead of starting out combativie and pointlessly argumentative, you could find out.

 

[fls]

No but asking about 50 people yesterday and them confirming it is another. Its a Greek word. I mean your argument is based totally on semantics and trying to say that my statement meant something else.

I also do not see the point in this except for being skeptical just for the sake of argument which is stupid in my opinion.

Ok just to settle it.....

Go here

http://world.altavista.com/tr


type in I am thinking

And translate it from English to Greek


and you will get this



?????????

Now if you look you can see that its the word Skeptic in there

The first letter is the Greek S then the K E F TO P A I

The root is the same. Anyone continuing to argue this is just playing games for the sake of winning a semantic game.

That is not relevant to your claim that skeptic doesn't mean doubt.

And to be honest, I'm starting to doubt your original claim that "skeptic" is a word in Greek. I am unable to come up with that letter combination when I play around with online translators, or when I input the Greek letters into google. And that your "proof" was to find a word with a similar root makes me suspicious that you and your husband have been playing semantic games similar to my claim that "corps" and "corpse" do not mean the same thing and it's silly for you to carry on as though they do.

Linda

 

[truethat]

There is no claim that skeptic doesn't mean doubt. Read the original post and it has the definition there. Why would I post the definition if I was challenging it?

Why would I suggest that is about the APPLICATION of the meaning not the definition of it that is of interest to me?


The reason I perhaps am getting frustrated is at the level of nonsense going on here.

The word SKEPTIC when it is PRONOUNCED. When you hear the sound of the word Skeptic in Greek its referring to thinking.

Anyway never mind, I'm sure this is just more of the same "playing at thinking" rather than actually engaging in it.

For those that did catch the point of the OP and contributed to it, thanks it was interesting to read.

For the rest. LMAO.

 

[Phlebas]

Snottiness -- the last refuge of a lost argument.

Good luck.

 

[fls]

There is no claim that skeptic doesn't mean doubt. Read the original post and it has the definition there. Why would I post the definition if I was challenging it?

This is what you said (well, what you said your husband said, anyway):

"Well in Greek Skeptic means thinker, it seems to me that people think Skeptic means doubter."

Why add the last part unless Skeptic doesn't mean doubter?

Why would I suggest that is about the APPLICATION of the meaning not the definition of it that is of interest to me?

But any of my comments I have made to that point you have ignored, while addressing only my comments you say you want to ignore. Does that make sense to you?

The reason I perhaps am getting frustrated is at the level of nonsense going on here.

The word SKEPTIC when it is PRONOUNCED. When you hear the sound of the word Skeptic in Greek its referring to thinking.

I'm afraid you have lost credibility with me on this matter. This looks like a last ditch effort and you have already demonstrated that you are willing to play fast and loose with the truth. Those two things alone tell me I should be skeptical of this claim without confirmation.

Anyway never mind, I'm sure this is just more of the same "playing at thinking" rather than actually engaging in it.

Actually, this discussion has been an excellent refutation of the distinction you were trying to make in your OP. Rather than doubting your claim as to the meaning of "skeptic" in Greek until presented with evidence otherwise, we all thought about it, searched for additional information, and when we couldn't find confirming information, asked for your evidence. We then thoughtfully considered what you presented and explained why it did not support your assertion. I did not begin to doubt until I had a chance to look at what had been presented. And even now, I don't consider the matter closed by any means. Does that not fulfill what you've written about what it means to be a True Skeptic?

And the accusations of hostility and nonsense seem unfounded, or at best, premature.

For those that did catch the point of the OP and contributed to it, thanks it was interesting to read.

For the rest. LMAO.

As I pointed out earlier, not everyone is interested in responding, yet again, to that particular strawman. Actions speak louder than words.

Linda

 

[Steven Howard]

He thought it was hysterical that a bunch of people sat around with Greek dictionaries telling a Greek speaking person they were wrong about their language.

Don't you find it equally funny that you're lecturing a bunch of English speakers about the meaning of an English word based on your secondhand knowledge of Greek?

 

[Jimbo07]

Anyway never mind, I'm sure this is just more of the same "playing at thinking" rather than actually engaging in it.

That's fine.

What, in this case, would have stood out as an example of engaging in thinking, rather than playing at thinking?

 

[Southwind17]

truethat's husband is conspicuous by his silence on this matter. I'll bet he's well and truly in the dog-house for opening his big, Greek mouth. Or has truethat now disappeared with a print-out of this thread to her divorce lawyer, citing "diminished etymology" as grounds for seeking a break-up?!

 

[six7s]

I am a true skeptic

McEvidence?

...this is a site of "Skeptics" only to find that non one is interested in actually looking into anything that they don't already agree with?

McHuh?

Do you mean "no-one is interested"?

If so, you are being ridiculous

If not, please clarify

Either way, please at least try to curb your habit of posting cryptic nonsense

Thank you

You're welcome

 

[truethat]

That's fine.

What, in this case, would have stood out as an example of engaging in thinking, rather than playing at thinking?

I found that you engaged in thinking and posted in such a way. I found most of the other comments on here decided to focus on the specific definition rather than the concept of what I was saying, skepticism as a concept.

You seemed to try to get at what I was intending even if I wasn't clear.

 

[Robin]

He thought it was hysterical that a bunch of people sat around with Greek dictionaries telling a Greek speaking person they were wrong about their language.

So what you are suggesting is that everybody is right about their own language. For example what I think a word means in English must be the correct definition because English is my first language? Right?

 

[Elind]

skep·tic also scep·tic (skptk)
n.
1. One who instinctively or habitually doubts, questions, or disagrees with assertions or generally accepted conclusions.

.....inasmuch as they have not been satisfactorily shown to be valid to the best of current knowledge.

 

[articulett]

I'm not interested in the language debate, so let's take up another tack:



Okay. I agree. Who here, really, would disagree?

It seems like a problem arises when someone asserts a position which gets picked apart by the application of reason. The assertion may or may not remain standing after being picked apart. If not, the original poster gets angry.

Who is holding on to the sacred cow?

Oh, I know, I know-- pick me... I know who it is!... is she married to a Greek, by chance? Um.... does she consider herself the TRUE SKEPTIC? Is she a "thinker"? Could she be asserting that something is true and that everyone on a skeptics forum is childish and awful for not just believing her???

 

[articulett]

I smell ye old "I'm skeptic of the skeptics argument"-- and she did call one of the best supported and amazing scientific understandings of our time, a "sacred cow"? That is not something I've heard anyone who understands evolution to say-- but that is something I've heard many a woo say.

Of course truethat is big on hyperbole, self-righteous defense, anecdotal husband endorsement, and platitudes-- and very low on useful information, evidence, facts, or charm.

I am everlastingly amazed at the people who come here certain they have something to teach us all while being so very clueless as to how glaring their gaps in learning are. But they do amuse.

 

[articulett]

Skeptic means world class, award winning beards grown without the use of bulls-it products. It means transcending human anatomical limitations legitimately through permanently fixed scowls and frowns. It means fighting unwritten crime and cosmically atrocious fashion, while wearing roughly the same thing every day. It means using hapless evildoers as footballs while concerned with the welfare of the even more hapless for some reason. It means telling yourself and others that was a party last night, and the fling with the socially awkward female who lacked the sex appeal and optimism of Daphne, the coldly cynical social darwinism and interior filth of Nancy Grace, or the compassion, mannered gracefulness and exterior filth of Columbo, was a mature adult decision.

Thus I say.

Well now!-- That makes a little more sense.

 

[Southwind17]

My husband is Greek and I was describing some of the exchanges on here and he said "But its a skeptic forum" and I said "yes" and he said "Well in Greek Skeptic means thinker, it seems to me that people think Skeptic means doubter."

I was so glad he pointed this out ...

I'd like to bet you're not so glad now!

Given the cause for so much of the debate emanating from this thread I thought I'd go right back to the beginning. I work in an office with a Greek lady. She's well-educated (degree qualified) and intelligent, but by no means a professed linguist. I asked her first if the word "sceptic" (I'm English, sorry) exists in the Greek language. She replied "yes - skeptikos". I then asked her what, in her mind (no looking at dictionaries, etc.) she believes the definition of "sceptic" is - simple as that - no context. I asked her to write it down after due consideration. She emailed me this:

Sceptic – one who instinctively questions and/or doubts; a cynic

Whether this definition is precisely right or wrong is immaterial, but so far as I'm concerned it unequivocally and neatly concludes the debate over truethat's husband's eminence when it comes to linguistics.

But what I've noticed so far on this site and other people who call themselves Skeptics, is that they think being a skeptic means doubting everything at face value until proven otherwise.

Given the above I rest my case. Truethat's husband seems, amongst other Greek speakers and reputed dictionaries, to be the only one harbouring his definition.

skep·tic also scep·tic (skptk)
n.
1. One who instinctively or habitually doubts, questions, or disagrees with assertions or generally accepted conclusions.

Having identified this definition, which contradicts hubby's, what possessed truethat even to open the debate? Admittedly, there are degrees of scepticism, ranging from simply doubting and questioning to bordering on cynicism and, yes, you will encounter people professing to be sceptics who simply dismiss out of hand. But truethat has been around. She knows how people react here.

Truethat - if you can't stand the heat ...