What Skeptic means

[truethat]

Your analogy fails since in this instance your only evidence is "what my husband has told me" which as I said is evidence that no one else can check on.

On the other hand I went to look at several sources to see if I could find evidence for your claim and as I said I could find no evidence at all and indeed found evidence that contradicts your claim i.e. that the word "skeptic" is not a word used in the Greek language.

If I am wrong it should be quite easy for you to show that I am wrong by for example using a on-line Greek dictionary. One of the reasons by the way that I was doubtful about your original claim is that I can read quite a bit of Greek and I had never seen (even in Greek "skeptical" articles) the word "skeptic" being used.

Not true. I posted the definitions for you and the translations which though it is written in Greek you can clearly see its the word SKEPTIC in there and you just dismissed it to play semantic games about how its not the word "SKEPTIC" exactly.

To what end I have no idea since the original question is not the debate over the definition of the word but the application of it.

 

[Phlebas]

It isn't. Its I know Greek speaking people and word Skeptic means thinker in Greek.

So sorry that you all seem to think you can have an opinion about something you don't understand.

What I don't understand is what is it about speaking Greek that makes a person the Ultimate Arbiter of what words mean, and how everyone else uses them.

My failure to comprehend that might be due to some defect in me, or JUST MAYBE it's because your argument is spurious.

 

[truethat]

Just because he's Greek, doesn't mean he speaks the language properly.

Or are you saying someone in Queens or the Bronx or a Cajun or a hick from Kentucky is going to always speak American-English correctly?

I'm sure the Greek have a few idiots, too.

The fact of the matter is, if your husband says that "skeptic" is a common Greek word with the meaning of 'thinker', he's wrong, period, point blank, full stop. And the fact of the matter is, a native Greek speaker is MORE likely to be wrong about the facts of his own language, than the scholars and academics who, themselves, are ALSO native Greek speakers, but have the additional benefit of education and experience, who write these lexicons. That's just a fact, TT.

The history of the term 'skeptic' is steeped in doubt and in critical examination of facts; they were opposing the Stoics and the Dogmatics - who styled themselves as 'thinkers' - so 'skeptic' from the onset has ALWAYS referred to doubting and critical thinking, not to thinking.

So in both original AND modern usage, the term is not merely 'thinker', but 'critical thinker'.

Your husband is simply wrong. Deal with it.

Excellent example. Full stop you are wrong. Full stop you are offering up no evidence to back up any of your claims.

And yet you think this is a valid argument?

This is what I am talking about.

Its just utter silliness that passes for debate.

 

[Jimbo07]

I'm not interested in the language debate, so let's take up another tack:

It is the application of reason to any and all ideas—no sacred cows allowed. In other words, skepticism is a method, not a position.

Okay. I agree. Who here, really, would disagree?

It seems like a problem arises when someone asserts a position which gets picked apart by the application of reason. The assertion may or may not remain standing after being picked apart. If not, the original poster gets angry.

Who is holding on to the sacred cow?

 

[truethat]

What I don't understand is what is it about speaking Greek that makes a person the Ultimate Arbiter of what words mean, and how everyone else uses them.

My failure to comprehend that might be due to some defect in me, or JUST MAYBE it's because your argument is spurious.

Or just maybe you have no idea what you are talking about and have decided to take the opposite opinion without making any effort at all to try to see if what I am saying is true or not.

But you think that standing as a SKEPTIC means you actually have some sort of platform.

As they said in the article, skepticism is a METHOD not a postion, where is the method here?

Just saying NO I don't believe it is not skepticism in my book. Its the lazy mans way out of having to actually educate themselves beyond what they feel comfortable. And for many it boils down to sitting online cruising google trying to find others to do the thinking for them.

 

[Hindmost]

No I don't have thin skin and I don't mind attack. My husband was laughing his ass off at the people on here. There's a fine line between being cleverly snarky and just being a fool to win an argument.

The word skeptic in Greek means thinker. I don't care what your Greek dictionaries say, contact a Greek speaking person. It is a regular word used every day to mean thinking.

He thought it was hysterical that a bunch of people sat around with Greek dictionaries telling a Greek speaking person they were wrong about their language.

I think the whole things is a real indicator of what is wrong with the way people's intelligence is grown in the world today that the authority of a quick sound bite or a random snatch from a dictionary byline is supposed to be enough "EVIDENCE" to trump someone who actually speaks the language.

I don't want to say what that comes across to me. But it ain't smart.

I don't mean to criticize you or your husband, however, just because a person speaks greek does not automatically qualify them as an expert on the greek language. I speak english and I can slaughter english as much as anyone. If someone were to use me as a source for definitions of english words, it would be a mistake. (or grammar or spelling). (sorry, analyzing and being skeptical)

Back on the OP.

Skeptic: Foremost, being a skeptic is analyzing the world based on valid evidence and the scientific method. The scientific method--properly conducted--guarantees repeatibility of events and physical phenomena. It is essential to dismiss anedotal claims. Being a skeptic is using the tools of science correctly.

I don't know if my definition is in any dictionary, feel free clobber me.

Unfortunately, some claim to be skeptics and really don't understand this position. If someone states: "I am skeptical that we went to the moon." That person is not using the term properly because there is no valid evidence that we did not go to the moon and overwhelming evidence that we did go to the moon.

glenn

 

[SirPhilip]

Skeptic means world class, award winning beards grown without the use of bulls-it products. It means transcending human anatomical limitations legitimately through permanently fixed scowls and frowns. It means fighting unwritten crime and cosmically atrocious fashion, while wearing roughly the same thing every day. It means using hapless evildoers as footballs while concerned with the welfare of the even more hapless for some reason. It means telling yourself and others that was a party last night, and the fling with the socially awkward female who lacked the sex appeal and optimism of Daphne, the coldly cynical social darwinism and interior filth of Nancy Grace, or the compassion, mannered gracefulness and exterior filth of Columbo, was a mature adult decision.

Thus I say.

 

[truethat]

I'm not interested in the language debate, so let's take up another tack:



Okay. I agree. Who here, really, would disagree?

It seems like a problem arises when someone asserts a position which gets picked apart by the application of reason. The assertion may or may not remain standing after being picked apart. If not, the original poster gets angry.

Who is holding on to the sacred cow?

Thank you.


There are many sacred cows. Religion is a sacred cow, evolution is a sacred cow. This is why I say I am a true skeptic because I'm not taking it on as Postion to say "I am a SKEPTIC" this is a site of "Skeptics" only to find that non one is interested in actually looking into anything that they don't already agree with?

That's not being a skeptic. That's being a CYNIC to me.

I'm interested in examining everything. Which is why I don't tend to get flipped out about people presenting religious points of view even though its utter nonsense in my personal point of view, I'm interesting in seeing what it means to other people.

I've noticed that this is very confusing to simple thinkers. They have A and B and that's it, they aren't capable of seeing beyond that so everything becomes a fight.

 

[truethat]

I don't mean to criticize you or your husband, however, just because a person speaks greek does not automatically qualify them as an expert on the greek language. I speak english and I can slaughter english as much as anyone. If someone were to use me as a source for definitions of english words, it would be a mistake. (or grammar or spelling). (sorry, analyzing and being skeptical)

Back on the OP.

Skeptic: Foremost, being a skeptic is analyzing the world based on valid evidence and the scientific method. The scientific method--properly conducted--guarantees repeatibility of events and physical phenomena. It is essential to dismiss anedotal claims. Being a skeptic is using the tools of science correctly.

I don't know if my definition is in any dictionary, feel free clobber me.

Unfortunately, some claim to be skeptics and really don't understand this position. If someone states: "I am skeptical that we went to the moon." That person is not using the term properly because there is no valid evidence that we did not go to the moon and overwhelming evidence that we did go to the moon.

glenn

Good point about the moon. The article i posted I suppose says it much better than I did. This is what I mean. Where is the scientific method in saying "I don't believe you so I'm going to just take the position that you are wrong, without actually investigating it myself, and we'll stick with that"

There is no position to take if you haven't done the work yourself. If you just say you don't believe something without investigating it, its no different than a leap of FAITH in my book.

 

[Darat]

Not true. I posted the definitions for you and the translations which though it is written in Greek you can clearly see its the word SKEPTIC in there and you just dismissed it to play semantic games about how its not the word "SKEPTIC" exactly.

No I did not dismiss it because I was playing "semantic games", that is in fact what you are trying to do to salvage your original claim. Let me remind you what your claim was:

"Well in Greek Skeptic means thinker,..."

As I have shown (with evidence that you can easily check on) is that this is not the case. I even stated that the words you did provide may share an etymological "ancestor" however a shared etymology does not does not mean they are the same.

I would hazard a guess that your husband was mistaken because he presumed because the word "skeptic" is quite similar to some of the words for thinker or philosopher in Greek and have a similar root they were the same.

To what end I have no idea since the original question is not the debate over the definition of the word but the application of it.

I have explained my interest in your opening posts was confined to the claim you made about the word "skeptic" having a different meaning in modern Greek than it does in English. The rest of your opening post was, to me, just a trite repetition of a fallacy I've heard and read too many times to still be particularly interested in responding to.

 

[Phlebas]

As they said in the article, skepticism is a METHOD not a postion, where is the method here?

Read everything Darat has been posting. If we don't reach the conclusion your husband told you to reach, it doesn't mean we don't have a method. We just don't have Unquestioned Faith in your husband's mad language skilz.

Just saying NO I don't believe it is not skepticism in my book. Its the lazy mans way out of having to actually educate themselves beyond what they feel comfortable. And for many it boils down to sitting online cruising google trying to find others to do the thinking for them.

Is asking your husband any better than googling?

Several people here, including me, have said what we mean when we use the word "skeptic." Whether it jibes with your husband's definition is immaterial and uninteresting.

I'm not sure what sort of affirmation you're looking for here. I'm sure your husband is a nice enough man, if that helps.

 

[truethat]

No but asking about 50 people yesterday and them confirming it is another. Its a Greek word. I mean your argument is based totally on semantics and trying to say that my statement meant something else.

I also do not see the point in this except for being skeptical just for the sake of argument which is stupid in my opinion.

Ok just to settle it.....

Go here

http://world.altavista.com/tr


type in I am thinking

And translate it from English to Greek


and you will get this



Σκέφτομαι

Now if you look you can see that its the word Skeptic in there

The first letter is the Greek S then the K E F TO P A I

The root is the same. Anyone continuing to argue this is just playing games for the sake of winning a semantic game.


ETA I already gave this example by the way. So this is just redundant. If you want to insist that it doesn't mean thinking, well then you're on your own, because I'm done explaining it to the peanut gallery.



And I am interested in you saying what you think Skeptic means and how you approach being a skeptic. I haven't told any of you that you are wrong in your interpretation. I'm curious in how people look at it. The side track of saying my husband doesn't understand his own language, was a bit galling. But that's not my interest in this conversation.

 

[Darat]

...snip..

evolution is a sacred cow.

...snip...

Evidence for this claim?

...snip..

This is why I say I am a true skeptic because I'm not taking it on as Postion to say "I am a SKEPTIC" this is a site of "Skeptics" only to find that non one is interested in actually looking into anything that they don't already agree with?

...snip...

What is it that "non one is interested in actually looking at"?

[bold by me]

...snip...

I've noticed that this is very confusing to simple thinkers. They have A and B and that's it, they aren't capable of seeing beyond that so everything becomes a fight.

Can I suggest you read this article 7 Stupid Thinking Errors You Probably Make and the sections 6 & 7. I suggest this because I note many times in your posts in this thread you make the assertion that people don't agree with you or have come to different conclusions to you because they are "simple thinkers" or "fools" or "cynics" or "what is wrong with the way people's intelligence" and so on. There could be many other reasons for why people disagree, one that comes to mind is that it is you that is wrong?

 

[truethat]

I am not ever not wrong. I don't think like that. And I have never said that people who disagree with me are stupid or simple etc. I said that people who play games and attack personally are doing this. Calling me names or picking fights and having the idea that there is RIGHT and WRONG, to me is a bit juvenile and ridiculous.

No one is ever completely right or completely wrong. I'm interested in seeing how people come to their conclusions.

I'm not interested in people being a smart ass because they think its clever just for pits and giggles.

Tha'ts annoying to me. But meh, its just me.

 

[Phlebas]

To be honest, I don't give half a crap about the origin of the word. I don't care if it's Greek, Yiddish, Pig Latin, or Klingon. Nor do I care how it was originally used.

My interest in this thread is twofold:
1) Why it is so important to you that we acknowledge your husband's etymology.
2) Why you seem to think an ancient definition of a common word changes what we are and how we behave.

Interesting game with Babelfish, but it doesn't really show anything. Type in "skeptic" and translate from English to Greek, then retranslate the result from Greek back to English, and you get "distrustful," which is not at all what "skeptic" means. (What it does mean is that Babelfish is not exactly the Oracle at Delphi.)

 

[fls]

The word skeptic in Greek means thinker. I don't care what your Greek dictionaries say, contact a Greek speaking person. It is a regular word used every day to mean thinking.

He thought it was hysterical that a bunch of people sat around with Greek dictionaries telling a Greek speaking person they were wrong about their language.

I don't think you quite got the point. I'm willing to accept that when your husband and other Greek speaking people use the word skeptic, that it means think. What I am wondering is, when we get information from other notable sources and the Greek root and its subsequent use in English includes "doubt", what it is that excludes that possibility in current Greek. And whether that exclusion is based on a difference in understanding of what it means to doubt.

Also, it's more interesting than answering the "close-minded ostrich" charge. Sorry if that's the direction you wanted this thread to take. I think it's hit or miss whether anyone picks that up at any given time.

Linda

 

[SirPhilip]

I am not ever not wrong. I don't think like that.

You are on the wrong forum. Fine, do you have a cat?

 

[Mangafranga]

No one is ever completely right or completely wrong.

I disagree.

 

[truethat]

Right so maybe we should use something like ....oh I don't know.....someone who actually SPEAKS the language.

I dont' care if it means Skeptic or not to you the point of the OP is HOW do you approach skepticism. The derailment of that idea onto a game of semantics is silly to me but the other posters would not go forward until that point was addressed. Why did YOU stop at if, if it was no concern to you.

The point of him saying that is just an idea. That some people treat skepticsim as a position rather than a method. The article I posted makes a good point as well

Skepticism has a long historical tradition dating back to ancient Greece when Socrates observed: “All I know is that I know nothing.” But this pure position is sterile and unproductive and held by virtually no one. If you are skeptical about everything, you would have to be skeptical of your own skepticism. Like the decaying subatomic particle, pure skepticism uncoils and spins off the viewing screen of our intellectual cloud chamber." -Michael Shermer, What is a Skeptic?

This is how I am skeptical. I tend to think and rethink everything. I don't take a position and stick with it.

Darat, for example asks how is evolution a sacred cow. Well in that we are not to question it. If we question evolution we are immediately branded an idiot a fool, we have the "scientific theory" means something different than theory mantra thrown at us again and again.

As if its ok to question but not everything. For people who question and think it can be daunting to be in a situation where one person says A is true and the "SKEPTIC" says NO A is not true B is true. And the debate goes in circles, with the Skeptic never doubting or challenging his own position. Nor being OPEN to it being challenged.

I tend to question everything and wondered if there are others who have the same experience is seeing Skepticism treated as a position rather than a method.

 

[Jimbo07]

Thank you.


There are many sacred cows. Religion is a sacred cow, evolution is a sacred cow.

Something about this statement makes me uncomfortable... maybe it's a sacred cow!

This is why I say I am a true skeptic because I'm not taking it on as Postion to say "I am a SKEPTIC"

No True Scotsman?

this is a site of "Skeptics" only to find that non one is interested in actually looking into anything that they don't already agree with?

This is potentially disingenuous, because how do we know what others have already looked into? My wife accused me of not liking anything new, when I didn't like country music. She didn't seem to acknowledge that I had heard country music before I met her. It's not like it was "new" to me and I was being closed-minded. In fact, I've enjoyed some newer country tunes (think Big n' Rich ).

I'm interested in examining everything.

Most of us don't have the time in life to examine everything, and again, perhaps we've already examined some things.

Which is why I don't tend to get flipped out about people presenting religious points of view even though its utter nonsense in my personal point of view, I'm interesting in seeing what it means to other people.

On the whole, I don't get flipped out about others' religious beliefs. In fact, in general, it doesn't even come up in conversation. What I am interested in thinking about is when someone tries to convince me that their point-of-view is correct.

As Dilbert once glibly asked (at the expense of a good date): "Since when is ignorance a point-of-view?"

I've noticed that this is very confusing to simple thinkers. They have A and B and that's it, they aren't capable of seeing beyond that so everything becomes a fight.

I think you'll find both dogmatic and liberal-minded skeptics here. In fact, I think you'll notice both patterns of thought in the same individual on different days, in different moods and on different issues.

It is just as much a mistake to say that JREF skeptics are closed-minded and cynical as you seem to think it is for JREFfers to say that they are always perfectly rational.