What Is The Soul?

Pure_Argent said:
Mmkay. Somebody PM me when he has - until then, this is pointless.
Click to expand...

He's been equivocating on the definition, basically on one hand he is trying to define it as something mundane (blood, life), but on the other hand he is leaving the door open for the supernatural (the soul is *in* blood). Then, apparently, it's our fault if the topic wanders. Go figure.

Taken at face value, his OP basically said "people misinterpret what soul means in the babble, here's what it really means (because I have the truth, obviously)". What he failed to realise is noone here is really interested in competing interpretations of the babble, because there are so many of them, and it is all so very pointless.

David has been through the bit where his frustration levels rise because people just won't *believe*, round the corner where he denies reality and known historical facts, and past the point where he tries to put everyone down cos he has dah troof, donchya know, and we should just believe. Why, oh why, won't we just bleeve???

Now we're at the part where the conversation will degenerate into ad homs and David quoting the babble, as if it had relevance. We're not quite at the "David disappears" part yet, but it can't be too far off.
 
Pure_Argent said:
Mmkay. Somebody PM me when he has - until then, this is pointless.
Click to expand...
.
It really is appalling that a possibly educated person with some idea as the operation of the digestive system would entertain the idea that some creature had a gut process so inefficient that potential food (Jonah) would live in the gut for 3 days and not be processed at all.
And it's interesting to note that the calming of the sea in Galilee that day by Jeebus is pretty much lifted from the Book of Jonah.
 
David Henson said:
The supernatural in the Bible isn't testable by science or any other means.
Click to expand...
Nor is the supernatural in A Midsummer Night's Dream.

So, if you took the supernatural out of the Bible you would have no reason to doubt it. You absolutely could not say that if it was written by a bunch of "bronze age goat-herders."
Click to expand...
There is much to doubt regarding Biblical accounts other than those involving the supernatural. Just the fact that the Bible contains multiple, mutually contradictory versions of narratives that propose to relate the same events is problematic.

But let's look even deeper into this line of logic. Take the following narrative: Bob woke up this morning, had breakfast, took a shower, fed his pet basilisk, then drove to work. If you take out the bit about feeding his basilisk, there isn't anything very improbable about the description of Bob's day. But that highly improbable part of the account is there, isn't it? The credibility straining supernatural elements of the Bible are still there, yes?
 
Here kitty kitty? :)

David ..... I will leave this thread of yours alone (probably). You were more or less answering my questions in the one I opened on the bible being god ...
 
Last edited:
David Henson said:
Jacob was Joseph's father, Heli was his father in law.

Was Joseph Jesus' Father?
Click to expand...

That is a common apologetic attempt to resolve the inconsistencies with the two texts, but it isn't an argument that is supported by evidence. As Bible scholar Bart Ehrman notes regarding the argument that Luke is presenting the genealogy of Mary, "The problem, of course, is that both of them explicitly trace the ancestry of Joseph (Matt 1:16 ;Luke 3:23)." Professor Ehrman is fluent in the ancient Greek language as used in the original texts and does not see any indication that Joseph was not presented as the son of Heli. The two genealogies are easy to parse as presentations of Joseph's male ancestry. There is not the slightest statement to indicate that Luke is presenting the ancestry of Mary.
 
David Henson said:
I agree. You are absolutely right. My apologies.
Click to expand...
Best thing he's posted.

ETA: and I know I took it out of context, and clipped a few words of his out, and that it wasn't said to me in particular. So what? I was looking for the True Meaning to his words. I thought it would be fine to do considering that is the best way to get evidence from something someone said and wrote down ... to cherry pick it, rearrange it, get rid of the parts you don't like, and assign the meaning to it that you see fit.
 
Last edited:
Robin said:
Eze 18:20 The soul (nephesh) who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.
Eze 18:21 "But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die.
....
Eze 18:31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit (ruach). Why will you die, O house of Israel?
​

So clearly this is suggesting that a soul might not die and that a spirit is something that will die and will need to be renewed. Which is quite the opposite of what you are suggesting.

Psyche and spirit both come from words that can mean "breath" and I also note that Strongs says of nephesh "From naphash; properly, a breathing creature". In Genesis 2:7 God breathes into the nostrils of the man he has formed and the man becomes a nephesh.

So I think the words are closer than you think and also each can mean a number of things.

It is probably a mistake to assume that the usage of these words in the Bible was any more precise or less ambiguous than the usage of the equivalent words we have in our language today.
Click to expand...

Robin, sorry it took me so long but I had to take a break from this for a while.

Rather than start off with a long and time consuming response let me just ask you what makes you think the spirit was ever alive?
 
trentwray said:
It almost saddens me when a person finds an attempt to explore the truth a "trap". There's not really any place you can go from there when examining a topic brings the fear of a trap to the person. A fear they name but don't recognize.

You keep bringing in the bible in regards to the soul. You claim the soul is blood and that Jehovah owns the soul/blood. The validity of the bible and Jehovah go hand in hand. I want to cut to the chase of the Jehovah part of the trio ... I'm not going to debate the validity of the bible because I don't care about it. I want to know why you find validity to the Jehovah part. It's not a trap ... it's THE POINT.

I don't understand why you have to build this elaborate waltz around the central issue. If you're trying to show off something, or flaunt, or hone your dancing skills. Fine. But out of respect for those who want to participate in your argument and examine the actual song you're trying to dance to ... at least be willing to go there if you're the one turning on the music.

Have you not ever had someone genuinely ask you "show me God?" I'm asking you to do this. Not as a trap. What higher calling do you have? Every believer I ask has an excuse why they dodge this bullet and have to point to a book, or another teacher, or a building, or an explanation of why "god doesn't work that way". If I wanted to know whether or not a book or human or building or denomination was god I would go there. Show me your god. If you show me yourself, and say you're afraid of a trap, or hand me a book .... then I'll know who your god is. But will you?
Click to expand...

Give it a rest, will you? I'm not here to show you God. If you want me to tell you where you can find God it isn't in me or anyone else except Jesus Christ. The Bible is where I will send you and if you don't want to look there that's your problem, not mine. If you want to see what God is to me then shut up and listen to me.
 
David Henson said:
Robin, sorry it took me so long but I had to take a break from this for a while.

Rather than start off with a long and time consuming response let me just ask you what makes you think the spirit was ever alive?
Click to expand...
Well if we are going to avoid time consuming responses, let's stick to the point.

You claimed in the OP that the Bible says that the soul (nephesh) is mortal and dies. And yet the passage I quoted suggests that the souls might not die, that only souls that sin will die.
 
David Henson said:
Give it a rest, will you? I'm not here to show you God. If you want me to tell you where you can find God it isn't in me or anyone else except Jesus Christ. The Bible is where I will send you and if you don't want to look there that's your problem, not mine. If you want to see what God is to me then shut up and listen to me.
Click to expand...
What are you here to show?

Look, David, if you don't want to talk about God that's fine. But you do realize, I hope, that if you are going to discuss the bible, God will come up. And the validity of God is a key issue to that. The same goes for Jesus Christ. If those two foundations fall apart, why should the bible be given any credence beyond any story from mythology? I can see it's philosophical value and some historicity there. But to claim it's the word of god but we aren't allowed to question that ... what kind of discussion is it then? Your rules become:

1) We are going to discuss the bible and it's concepts. I'm going to tell you what is true. It is the word of god.
2) Don't question me about he validity of god or my claim. Only question what I tell you to question.

Just type out your doctrine and post a link to it.

And yes, you are showing your god. Your god is yourself and your understanding of the bible. Plain as day.

God forbid someone should challenge you beyond what you are capable. Wouldn't want to grow or learn something. How awful would that be.

I'll try not to interrupt your cat and mouse cartoon you need to perpetuate. You asked me to stop. See? I listened.
 
Last edited:
Robin said:
Well if we are going to avoid time consuming responses, let's stick to the point.

You claimed in the OP that the Bible says that the soul (nephesh) is mortal and dies. And yet the passage I quoted suggests that the souls might not die, that only souls that sin will die.
Click to expand...

Would you agree then, that through Adam sin entered the world and that sin equals death and that Jesus takes sin away so that there may be everlasting life? Are you familiar with the scripture that says once you die your debt of sin is paid? So in sin you die, but may live again. Also, are you familiar with the idea that the dead should bury the dead? A spiritual death. God is a god of of the living though they are dead and the spiritually dead bury the physically dead, no? Do you understand?
 
trentwray said:
What are you here to show?

Look, David, if you don't want to talk about God that's fine. But you do realize, I hope, that if you are going to discuss the bible, God will come up. And the validity of God is a key issue to that. The same goes for Jesus Christ. If those two foundations fall apart, why should the bible be given any credence beyond any story from mythology? I can see it's philosophical value and some historicity there. But to claim it's the word of god but we aren't allowed to question that ... what kind of discussion is it then? Your rules become:

1) We are going to discuss the bible and it's concepts. I'm going to tell you what is true. It is the word of god.
2) Don't question me about he validity of god or my claim. Only question what I tell you to question.

Just type out your doctrine and post a link to it.

And yes, you are showing your god. Your god is yourself and your understanding of the bible. Plain as day.

God forbid someone should challenge you beyond what you are capable. Wouldn't want to grow or learn something. How awful would that be.

I'll try not to interrupt your cat and mouse cartoon you need to perpetuate. You asked me to stop. See? I listened.
Click to expand...

What do you want from me? Stop your smug investigation which in your mind is insatiable only to your preconcieved confirmations of why the mentally insane believe in God and tell me simply what you want from me. Be honest about it for a change and don't think I see you doing this just to me.
 
Last edited:
David Henson said:
What do you want from me? Stop your smug investigation which in your mind is insatiable only to your preconcieved confirmations of why the mentally insane believe in God and tell me simply what you want from me. Be honest about it for a change and don't think I see you doing this just to me.
Click to expand...
You're making too many assumptions about me. I don't view believers as mentally insane.

What I view them as is deluded when they claim something that physically exists to be evidence of God 100% ... like you are doing with the bible. You are not claiming that your understanding is perfect, and you are not claiming that you are perfect, and you're not claiming that the bible itself is perfect (I don't think) ... but you are saying that the bible is the words of God.

I am stating very clearly what I want: I WANT YOU TO SHOW ME GOD. What more important question can I ask of you dude? If you don't know god, say so. If you don't believe in God, say so. If you think God is dead, say so. It's simple. You are wanting to play a game, I am not. If you show me the bible or yourself, then that is making you God. You are the only representative of God I can look at.

What does that tell you? I know what it tells me. If you view it as a game or a trap, it's one of your own design because YOUR DESIGN IS FLAWED.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom