What is the current Republican position on this?

I once had a whole thread for conservatives to explain why we shouldn't have universal healthcare. I don't recall that anything ever came out of it.

Yet, clearly, many do not want it.

And here's the kicker...wouldn't universal healthcare actually make the USA a better place to do business on the global market?

Heck, maybe we need a thread to ask pro-business conservatives why they would be against universal healthcare if that is the case.
 
And here's the kicker...wouldn't universal healthcare actually make the USA a better place to do business on the global market?
No. The taxes it requires would be better spent by taxpayers.
Heck, maybe we need a thread to ask pro-business conservatives why they would be against universal healthcare if that is the case.
Dunno. I'm neither "pro-business" nor "conservative" but I'll take a stab at it.
Two questions:...
I. From State control (or subsidization) of what industries does society as a whole benefit? You may imagine either a dichotomous classification: A={x:x is an unlikely candidate for State control}, B={x:x is a likely candidate for State operation} or a continuum:...
(highly unlikely) -1______.______+1 (highly likely).
II. What considerations determine an industry's classification or position on the continuum?

Devout Marxists will put every industry in B. Devout Libertarians will put every industry in A. To most of us, most industries fall somewhere in between, with "control" being itself a continuum, defined by the degree of regulation. I suggest that an industry's classification or position on the continuum depends upon the degree to which the industry exhibits economies of scale and the relative contributions which detailed local knowledge and general expertise make to performance.

Seems to me both the education industry and the medical treatment industry are highly unlikely candidates for State (government, generally) control.
 
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...yet america pays more per capita than countries with uiniversal coverage for your lousy healthcare system and people still die for want of coverage.
it is obvious that 'saving tax dollars' is not the motivation.
so....what's up with that?
The universe is not sick. Any expenditure on universal coverage is waste. There was nothing wrong with the treatment I got last time I used professional care. Unless things have deteriorated in the last twenty years, I don't accept the description of the US medical system as "lousy".
 
The universe is not sick. Any expenditure on universal coverage is waste. There was nothing wrong with the treatment I got last time I used professional care. Unless things have deteriorated in the last twenty years, I don't accept the description of the US medical system as "lousy".

It costs a lot more to do a lot less. I don't see how you could call it anything else.
 
The universe is not sick. Any expenditure on universal coverage is waste. There was nothing wrong with the treatment I got last time I used professional care. Unless things have deteriorated in the last twenty years, I don't accept the description of the US medical system as "lousy".

yet people commonly die due to lack of coverage....sounds pretty lousy to me.
 
This sounds pretty fictional to me. Health Insurance companies have always tried to deny claims and avoid taking on costly patients.

Do you have any evidence for your claim "insurance denies claims" ? Now of course he insurance relationship is a contractual one. They have limitations on what they pay for - for example they may not cover experimental or woo treatments. They may not cover certain conditions. They may have a dollar limit per year or per lifetime. My experience is that insurers pay in full without any push-bask when the item is covered. Your claim sounds pretty fictional to me - as I've seen insurers eat a quarter million for my wife's treatment in a single year, and circa $10k/yr for decades with no denials at all.

If you have individual term insurance, and make big claims - then of course your rates go up the following year. Not dissimilar to car insurance.



The idea that Private Charity will cover these things is, quite frankly, laughable.

I wouldn't say laughable - but it's hard to imagine it working today. As recently as the 1950s the instrumentation and type of procedures available was quite limited and this naturally limited the cost. Today family insurance costs $10k-15k/yr and insurance companies have modest profit margins - ~7%, and very low rates of fraud. So we are on average spending that category of money on medical benefits. It takes a lot of $500 donations to cover one indigent person - I don't think that's realistic either.

[QUOTE[The fact remains that the cheapest way for society to handle Health Care is through a Universal Health Care system. Anything else, like our current system, would be more expensive.[/QUOTE]

That is a non-sequiteur. Why is a "Universal" plan cheaper - it seems OBVIOUS that it makes health care significantly more expensive. The demand for services increases so there is an immediate supply/demand driving cost up. The fraud in federal plans is estimated as high as 20% vs <1% for private insurance - so you are exchanging a ~8% profit+fraud overhead for a ~20% fraud level. Further, with a universal plan there is zero competition (in a system where there is already far too little competition).


Have you looked into this
http://www.opa.ca.gov/healthcare/health-plan/pre-existing-conditions.aspx

California Major Risk Medical Insurance Program

I agree - there are also individual plans that exclude pre-existing condition, IIRC Blue Shield of CA has one. They are comparably priced compared to other insurance.

My dad got prostate cancer. It took several procedures but they eventually beat it and he's been cancer free since.

But the cost? $120,000

How is charity alone going to provide over a hundred grand to help one person live?

That's not the real cost - that's the billed amount. I expect a charity hospital might have a $25k-$30k expense to correspond with that level of billable cost. First you have to realize that that number is (I assume) the amount billed by hospitals. If you had even the crummiest insurance they would get a "negotiated rate" that would be around 30-40% of that amount (which is still well above the actual cost+profit). They reason for this is complicated but hospitals are mandated by law to treat ER patients to the point of stabilizing them, and most choose to accept medicare/medicare assignment - on which they lose money. Hospitals and other providers then shift these unpaid/underpaid costs onto insurers and paying patients. When a hospital bills a patient w/o insurance they expect to take a huge loss most of the time and the bill is the amount they would like to take as a loss (minus the value of selling the unpaid bill to a collector).

I don't know what your Dad's excuse for not having insurance is - but my approach, were I him, would be to (if he has the assets) to offer the hospital $40k cash IF they will accept that as payment in full for all the services billed. If he doesn't have $40k and can't come up with enough income to pay the $120k over - he may as well look into bankruptcy. Worth getting a lawyer involved either way.
 
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Do you have any evidence for your claim "insurance denies claims" ? Now of course he insurance relationship is a contractual one. They have limitations on what they pay for - for example they may not cover experimental or woo treatments. They may not cover certain conditions. They may have a dollar limit per year or per lifetime. My experience is that insurers pay in full without any push-bask when the item is covered. Your claim sounds pretty fictional to me - as I've seen insurers eat a quarter million for my wife's treatment in a single year, and circa $10k/yr for decades with no denials at all.

If you have individual term insurance, and make big claims - then of course your rates go up the following year. Not dissimilar to car insurance.

Name a Health Insurance company. Here's a well-known name:

Blue Cross Blue Shie#Details_on_specific_organizationsld

I mean seriously, lawsuits and cases are EASY to find.

I wouldn't say laughable - but it's hard to imagine it working today. As recently as the 1950s the instrumentation and type of procedures available was quite limited and this naturally limited the cost. Today family insurance costs $10k-15k/yr and insurance companies have modest profit margins - ~7%, and very low rates of fraud. So we are on average spending that category of money on medical benefits. It takes a lot of $500 donations to cover one indigent person - I don't think that's realistic either.

I don't see how it isn't laughable. It was laughable 50 years ago, 100 years ago, 200 years ago, etc. The only thing that has changed is medical care is much, much more effective and comprehensive today.

That is a non-sequiteur. Why is a "Universal" plan cheaper - it seems OBVIOUS that it makes health care significantly more expensive. The demand for services increases so there is an immediate supply/demand driving cost up. The fraud in federal plans is estimated as high as 20% vs <1% for private insurance - so you are exchanging a ~8% profit+fraud overhead for a ~20% fraud level. Further, with a universal plan there is zero competition (in a system where there is already far too little competition).

A little research or just reading my previous posts here would have got you covered here.

Note the above is PER CAPITA, meaning per U.S. citizen, even the people not paying anything and with no coverage. We pay a ridiculously large amount of money for less care than other countries. Sure, our current federal system has its flaws, but other countries clearly show this isn't an inherent problem. Even if we did have to deal with 20% fraud though, IT WOULD STILL BE A LOT CHEAPER.

Before you assume something would be cheaper or more expensive, try just ONE google search.
 
No. The taxes it requires would be better spent by taxpayers. ...

Bingo Sierra.

Your faith that people will make wise health choices that will have a better effect than a universal plan crashes into the rocks of thousands of years of the history of humans making very stupid choices.

A Universal plan helps business. It means that a business no longer needs to negotiate with a health plan for employees, or pay directly for it. It means that companies which provide health plans to their retired no longer need to fund that. It means that the pool of potential employees is healthier. It means that the cost of doing business goes down, and of course competitiveness goes up as costs go down. It means that employees will remain in the labor pool longer. It means that there are new markets opened up by the demand created by covering many more people.
 
Do you have any evidence for your claim "insurance denies claims" ? Now of course he insurance relationship is a contractual one. They have limitations on what they pay for - for example they may not cover experimental or woo treatments. They may not cover certain conditions. They may have a dollar limit per year or per lifetime. My experience is that insurers pay in full without any push-bask when the item is covered. Your claim sounds pretty fictional to me - as I've seen insurers eat a quarter million for my wife's treatment in a single year, and circa $10k/yr for decades with no denials at all.

Well, you're lucky then.

I seriously cannot stand how people like you base their entire indea of how health care works on "well I've never personally had this particular problem - so it probably does not exist!" If you're going to claim something isn't happening, using a survey sample of one to confirm that is just bad research.

Well my husband has never beat me. Using your logic, this is evidence that domestic violence does not exist.

I work at the Dana Farber Cancer Institute as a financial counselor, but previously I used to work in the Access Management department there handling denied claims. All I did was work denied claims.


Whenever a provider calls an insurance and asks if a benefit is covered, they will always give you the disclaimer that "benefits are not a guarantee of payment." The insurance company always reserves the right to deny a claim, even if it is a covered benefit - heck, even if there is an authorization on file, the insurance will still state that an authorization "is not a guarantee of payments. All claims are subject to review and we reserve the right to deny services." It is up to the medical director at an insurance company whether or not a service is "medically necessary." I would get claims every single day that were denied, some for tens of thousands of dollars, some for over 100K, which were a covered benefit for the patient's policy, but which the insurance decided was "not medically necessary" even though their doctor here at the hospital decided it was a medically necessary cancer treatment and it met the patient's policy guidelines.

The other thing insurances do is get really sneaky about authorizations. Some will intentionally make the authorization process as convoluted as possible in order to have an excuse to deny the claim. I'll give you an example situation which I came across more than once.

We'd have a patient who is getting chemotherapy. Chemotherapy required authorization, per the insurance, as did their visits with the MD in general. So we'd get three different authorizations: one for the MD visits, one generally for chemotherapy treatment, and a third for whatever specific chemotherapy drugs the patient would be receiving. But then we'd get the claim denied. Why? Because we didn't get an authorization for some piece of equiptment used to administer the chemotherapy - for instance, the needle of the catheter. Which they never told us required an authorization in the first place. And the insurance would deny the entire claim. I would see claims for tens of thousands of dollars denied because we didn't have an authorization for a needle or some tubing which cost a few bucks.

Another big thing they do is change things around in such a way that gets claims denied. So for instance, they'll change the claims mailing address - but not inform us of the change. So then we bill the claim, and it goes to the wrong place. Then oh, look, by the time we get the corrected address, the time limit to file a claim has passed, and the insurance doesn't have to pay us at all, and we eat the cost.

Also, sometimes they would just deny a claim for a completely wrong reason. So they'd say "Oh, it was denied because no authorization was on file." But there was an authorization on file. But maybe the insurance policy has a really brief window in which you can appeal a denial, and as we have so many denials that we need to appeal, we can only get through so many at a time. So by the time a denial would hit our worklist to appeal it, the appeal deadline has passed, and we're crap out of luck even though the denial was for a completely erroneous reason.

We lose enormous amounts of money every year because of private insurances denying medically necessary services to patients. Sometimes the hospital bites the cost, sometimes we bill it out to the patient. Sometimes the patient fights it in court and wins, sometimes they don't. We appeal denied claims, sometimes we get reimbursed, sometimes we're out $300 K on a single patient's denied treatment.

And we're an enormous and very well funded hospital that has the time and resources to fight denied claims. Many other hospitals do not, and either they bite the costs and the patient just gets billed. The patient may not have the ability or resources or knowledge to fight in court. Or maybe the patient dies and the hosptial never gets paid at all.

I have never seen one single solitary private insurance which does not do this - though certainly there is variation and there are a few companies with which these kinds of denials are relatively rare, but they still happen. With some other health insurance providers, it happens all the time (and we're talking major providers, not some rinky dink little insurance company). And I have worked with enormous numbres of insurance companies from all over the country, large and small. Just because this didn't happen to you doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It's not consistent. I could have two patients with identical policies from the same insurer, receiving the same treatment with the same diagnosis - one denies, one doesn't.

Oh, and by the way, how do you know that none of your wife's services were denied? Many times patients aren't even aware of their own denials because both the insurance and the hospital will have policy guidelines on when a patient can be billed for a denial, and when the hospital has to bite the cost. I'm not saying this actually happened, but its completely possible your wife was denied multiple services and you were never aware of it because policy stipulations do not allow you to be billed.

And keep in mind, I'm only talking about denial of claims, after the services are already rendered. We have far, far more services that are denied before the services are rendered - i.e. we apply for authorization for a service, and it is denied as not medically necessary, so the procedure is not done. As an example, we had a 24 year old patient denied by a major insurance company for a bone marrow transplant as "not medically necessary." At the time, the young man expressed to us his deep fear that now he would die because his insurance had denied his authorization. He was correct. He just died a couple weeks ago.
 
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I would advise that your brother try calling the general Medicaid phone number rather than just trying to call the case worker, and ask to speak to a supervisor. Also, is he seen at a major health care facility - a large community health center or a hospital? Then he could ask to speak with the financial counseling office and they may be able to help get him some answers. They also may be able to help with some drug assistance in the meantime if he's going without his meds.

You gave a lot of good information there for Joobie to work with.
I agree don't just try to call the caseworker and the advice about the center is excellent also. Many hospitals have people whose job is to help people find out about options available to them. I think they used to be called patient advocates.


Travis you need to get something similar to a patient advocate helping you secure insurance. You have gotten a lot of misinformation along the way including I believe about the likelihood of getting in one of the California sponsered programs.
 
There was nothing wrong with the treatment I got last time I used professional care. Unless things have deteriorated in the last twenty years, I don't accept the description of the US medical system as "lousy".
The discussion is about health care delivery systems and political party positions thereon. And your stance is determined by a single treatment you got 20 years ago? Really? I don't know which is dumber: that approach itself, or that you would admit it on a skeptics board. You may need to go to the ER for the damage to your credibility.
 
The discussion is about health care delivery systems and political party positions thereon. And your stance is determined by a single treatment you got 20 years ago? Really? I don't know which is dumber: that approach itself, or that you would admit it on a skeptics board. You may need to go to the ER for the damage to your credibility.

I have noticed that the bulk of anti universal healthcare advocates I've come across on JREF seem to base their entire position on their personal experiences. "I didn't have a problem, so there does not appear to be a problem," "I was able to get charity care to cover all my medical expenses. This means everyone can obtain charity care to cover all medical expenses," etc.

Once they start encountering people like me who specialize in this stuff, they tend to either clam up and flee the thread, or just ignore me all my points and stick to their completely baseless talking points, like Malcolm.

I'm not saying there aren't pro universal healthcare people who have no idea what they are talking about. There are plenty of those. But I have never encountered so much as one anti-universal healthcare proponent here on JREF who had even the slightest idea what they were talking about or any knowledge about how healthcare works.

And then when they encounter someone like me, who is extremely knowledgeable on the subject and can offer factual objections to their claims, they tend to ignore my posts or say "nuh uh!" or just say "Marxist! Marxist!" without actually saying what I said was incorrect (i.e. Malcolm).

It is extremely frustrating.
 
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...

And then when they encounter someone like me, who is extremely knowledgeable on the subject and can offer factual objections to their claims, they tend to ignore my posts or say "nuh uh!" or just say "Marxist! Marxist!" without actually saying what I said was incorrect (i.e. Malcolm).

It is extremely frustrating.

That is, more and more, the Republican reaction to all manner of inconvenient truths.
 
Do you have any evidence for your claim "insurance denies claims" ?

my dental insurance recently denied a claim because they "didn't have a proper address on file".

i discovered this when they mailed me a letter to tell me they were denying my claim.

if you bother examining this story you will see something very, very wrong with it.
 
I have noticed that the bulk of anti universal healthcare advocates I've come across on JREF seem to base their entire position on their personal experiences. "I didn't have a problem, so there does not appear to be a problem," "I was able to get charity care to cover all my medical expenses. This means everyone can obtain charity care to cover all medical expenses," etc.

It is really frustrating. Universal Healthcare is just plain cheaper. It leads to longer lifespans in a populace (easy to show). It is just as effective with treatments (it's a little harder to find studies that look at treatment time and prognosis, I admit). And then people come in here who have never even LOOKED at things insisting that this can't possibly be true.

This is all even backed up by economic theory on externalities.

I will say this. The majority of Americans are in favor of Medicare granting universal coverage. So it seems like people ARE in favor of UHC on the whole. Obviously it isn't going to happen in the current political climate since our government is too captured by corporate interests. *sigh* Another thing that's very annoying.

I think in general most people are in favor of the government doing things when it is cheaper if they provide a service verses private industry. Certainly it makes a lot of sense to do this.
 
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This also is bad for the hospital itself, because if an insurance company requests medical records to confirm the validity of a claim, and that MRI isn't medically necessary, you're not getting screwed.

But insurances aren't always going to do that, so a hospital can get away with ordering unnecessary MRIs.

You have to be a pretty crappy hospital to be doing that though (though it certainly is a problem). At a reputable hospital, you'll have a specific department set up which reviews all patients who are receiving MRIs as well as their medical policies to make sure the MRI is medically necessary and falls within their policy guidelines.

Also, it's not generally as easy to get fraudulent MRIs as people think, because the vast majority of insurance companies require prior authorization. You have to tell the insurance first that a patient is getting an MRI and submit clinical documentation to support the scan, and the insurance has to approve it after validating medical necessity.

Of course, there have been cases in which clinics have been found to be faking medical records in order to justify scans so they can scam insurances, so if you're just out to defraud an insurance, there are ways to do that.

But there is no prior authorization process with Medicare. You just have to follow their guidelines. Now if you don't, and Medicare asks you for clinical documentation after receiving a claim, you're screwed. But a lot of scans just fall through the cracks and get paid out by Medicare even though they weren't really necessary. So then you end up with Medicare paying for unnecessary scans.

I think Medicare needs more oversight. They need more people employed to review claims more carefully to prevent fraudulent payouts, or payouts for unnecessary services that could have been done by cheaper alternatives. But of it's very hard to convince a company or organization that they will decrease costs by hiring more people. Also, the American mentality is generally that more beaurocracy and more regulation is always a bad thing.

What happens when the hospital is also the insurance provider? The insurance company I was formerly with determined corporate rates by taking the previous years medical costs and adding in the O&P. They have a motive for doing marginally unnecessary procedures as they can raise rates for it. I don't know if they did it or not, but it sure makes for an exciting conspiracy theory!
 
Just an anecdote and I know those prove nothing;

I knew a woman years ago (the 80s) who worked for a company that had medical coverage though a very shady insurance company. They denied her coverage for a D&C to address her excessive periods because being a woman is a preexisting condition.
 
What is the current Republican position on this?





Whatever they think will help a republicker beat Obama in 2012.

They (many of those in congress - both houses)have clearly stated that any number of times so I am not intending that as a joke.
 

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