Rolfe
Adult human female
I'm very interested to know how you intend to demonstrate a single molecule of anything at all.
Rolfe.
Rolfe.
What is paranormal in Homeopathy
- Thread starter Dr. MAS
- Start date
-
- Tags
- homeopathy
Rasmus
Philosopher
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2005
- Messages
- 6,372
Just to make sure: You would have to demonstrate that you can do this reliably. (Say, with 10 doses from a single preparation mixed with 10 fakes.) Else one could assume that you were just lucky and found the one odd bottle that had one of the remaining molecules. (Or, what I thnk is more likely, that the delution process was faulty and you found the one bottle that had more than its even share of molecules from the original ingredient.)
Not only do I second Rolfe's question - I would also like to know what you will be looking for. From what I understand, you seem to belive that molecules are forever changing and restructuring; so at a high enough potency, they would no longer be the same molecules that you started out with. (And what that would do to the whole theory of homeopathy is for another thread ...
Rasmus.
Rolfe
Adult human female
Um, I think Geni said he knew of some detection system that could detect a single molecule of something, but I can't remember if I believed him. I think not.
Rolfe.
Rolfe.
Psiload
Master Poster
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2001
- Messages
- 2,102
It seems to me that confirming the presence of even a single molecule of mother tincture in a beyond Avogadro homeopathic dilution would only serve to prove that the successing process had been done improperly.
Boiron Group will tell you that there isn't supposed to be any molecules of mother tincture present in a dilution successed past 14c. So if you detect a molecule of mother tincture in a 14c dilution processed on a machine purchased from Boiron, the only realistic conclusion you could draw is not that your machine is violating the laws of physics/chemistry, but rather that your potentiating machine isn't operating to manufacturer's specifications. In other words... the laws of physics aren't broken, your successing machine is.
Last edited:
Dr. A Sheikh and Mas, I'd like to once again offer you my Texas Homeopathic cure. Just catch a goose and success it, mail it to my Grand Leader, then we'll give you a vast discount on our special Texan Homeopathic cure.
You could even come visit and learn from Grand Leader. That way, you won't get athlete's foot and DIE for learning too much too fast.
You could even come visit and learn from Grand Leader. That way, you won't get athlete's foot and DIE for learning too much too fast.
Blue Bubble
Sharper than a thorn
People, people ... the word is succuss ... you're combining the words "homeopathy" and "success" rather dangerously 
MRC_Hans
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Aug 28, 2002
- Messages
- 24,967
Obviously, this would not be feasible. Presumably, Dr. Sheikh, you know very little about physics and even less about measuring methods, but you would actually put yourself at a disadvantage here: Even assuming there was a single molecule, for you to find it in even a small sample would be immensely more difficult than finding the proverbial needle in a haystack.
Also, of course, it would make a difference which kind of molecule we were talking about. For instance, in any sample containing water, of any kind, you would be able to find numerous sodium chloride molecules (ions, to be precise), since you cannot make water that is so pure as to not contain trace amounts of NaCl.
Finally, what exactly would be paranormal about it? All you would do is show that a dilution process does not work as effectively as generally thought.
And, of course, you would not vindicate homeopathy by this. Quite the contrary, in fact, because you would not support homeopathic doctrine by referring to a dose-responsive effect. (I assume this last part is over your head).
Hans
MRC_Hans
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Aug 28, 2002
- Messages
- 24,967
Mmmm, I once had a car like that.So what is such a machine called? An auto-succussor?
Hans
Before I may appear to disagree, let me state that what you have said is true
The full and accurate description of what would be required for the challenge is:
Given a proper 14c potency, he will demonstrate the presence of any original solute.
The problem here is that he's not included suitable controls to insure "proper" preparation, just getting it from a reputed homeopathic pharmacy would not be considered adequate controls for that.
As noted, it appears he is asking for others to provide some method by which a single molecule could be located. You believe there is no such method, but if homeopathy works, perhaps there is!
I'll suggest that he drink it. He'll be asked to drink a vial that is either a 14c potency, or un-succussed pure(ish) solvent. He will then be asked if there is any homeopathic effect. A reasonable duration may be provided for each test (a few days?). This will be repeated for a number of trials to reduce the chances of success by guessing.
I can see two potential "safe" situations (safe from all points of view that is):
If he regularly suffers from conditions that can be treated by homeopathy (which, I imagine, many homeopaths would claim everybody does) and those conditions would not be significantly dangerous to leave untreated. Such a trial could be repeated over time to reach an appropriate number of trials.
Or, if there exists some homeopathic preparation that produces a noticable effect, but would not be significantly harmful, and repeat the other steps above. This would be easier, since it would not require conditions to occur beforehand.
Since you are fond of requesting help, let me offer some! Please identify one homeopathic preparation that you could take repeatedly and identify its effects. Ideally, this would be one such that the effects would be noticable quickly, and would go away quickly, to help reduce the amount of time required for each trial. If you can do that very simple task (others have suggested camphor I believe, but you may feel more comfortable with another) then I will WRITE A JREF APPLICATION FOR YOU! (some folks here might want to participate too, so I won't leave you guys out) Yes, and at no charge! Then all you'd have to do is print it out, notarize it, and mail it to JREF. From there, you'd likely get lots of help from JREF in performing this test.
This is exciting! A chance to prove that at least one homeopathic preperation has some kind of noticable effect! I can't wait to get started. Please identify a substance soon so I can get to it!
Complexity
Philosopher
- Joined
- Nov 17, 2005
- Messages
- 9,242
A Modest Proposal
Not so fast, you nasty little homeopathy fraud.
I wouldn't trust any homeopath or pharmacy that peddled homeopathic "remedies" to do the preparation unsupervised - they'd almost certainly be incompetent, dishonest, or both.
Here's how I'd approach a protocol for your little experiment:
All preparation of mother tinctures, dilution, mystical shaking, and transfer of solutions would be performed by hand under sterile conditions.
No piece of equipment (e.g. glassware, pipette) would be used more than once.
All equipment and solvent containers would be chosen randomly by a skeptic from several lots of equipment.
Samples of all equipment and solvents would be retained securely for later laboratory analysis.
The challenger and challenged would agree in advance on 10 or more mother tinctures that could be used in the test. Each of these candidate mother tinctures would need to be able to be prepared and diluted without the need for any "resting" of the solutions - the entire operation would need to be performed without interruption and under the full scrutiny and recording set forth in the protocol.
The challenger and challenged would agree in advance on the solvents that would be needed for the preparation and dilution of each of the candidate mother tinctures.
The challenger would bring to the test the non-solvent materials that would be needed for each of of the candidate mother tinctures.
The referee would procure sufficient laboratory-grade solvents for the preparation and dilution of any one of the candidate mother tinctures.
Once all of the materials and equipment for the preparation and dilution of any of the candidate mother tinctures have been secured, the challenged (e.g. JREF representative) would select the candidate mother tincture that will be prepared.
The homeopath would prepare the mother tincture and perform the dilutions in a sterile and secure environment that both parties have agreed upon. Equipment would be used only once. The entire procedure would occur without interruption and would be recorded and witnessed.
The solution that would be prepared would be 22C - "halfway" between the point at which the skeptics claim no atom of the active ingredient in the mother tincture is likely to be present (14C) and a high point at which homeopaths claim efficacy (30C).
The 22C solution would be securely transferred to a laboratory agreed upon by both parties. In addition, some number (e.g. 5) of solutions of identical appearance to the 22C solution and containing the same solvents in the same proportion as the 22C solution would be prepared and securely transferred to the lab. The referee would ensure double blinding.
Prior to the test, both parties would agree upon, for each candidate mother tincture, the elements or molecules whose discovery in the solution would constitute a success, as well as the assay methods that would be conducted in the laboratory.
The referee(s), other representatives of the challenged, and other representatives of the challenger, would witness the evaluation of the solutions at the laboratory. Only the referee(s) would know which of the candidate mother tinctures were prepared. All other witnesses and participants to the preparation and dilution of the mother tincture would be held incommunicado from the selection of which mother tincture to prepare through the conclusion of the laboratory testing.
The laboratory technicians would perform all of the agreed-upon tests on each of the solutions presented for testing (22C and the others) without knowing which solution was the 22C solution.
A success for the challenge would occur only if no fraud has been detected and at least one of the elements or molecules indicactive of the selected mother tincture is found in the 22C solution and none of the elements or molecules indicative of any of the candidate mother tinctures are found in any of the other solutions.
This is just a start on what I would insist upon for a protocol.
I doubt that it sounds as attractive as what you would propose.
May you get what you deserve for the fraud that you continue to commit.
Not so fast, you nasty little homeopathy fraud.
I wouldn't trust any homeopath or pharmacy that peddled homeopathic "remedies" to do the preparation unsupervised - they'd almost certainly be incompetent, dishonest, or both.
Here's how I'd approach a protocol for your little experiment:
All preparation of mother tinctures, dilution, mystical shaking, and transfer of solutions would be performed by hand under sterile conditions.
No piece of equipment (e.g. glassware, pipette) would be used more than once.
All equipment and solvent containers would be chosen randomly by a skeptic from several lots of equipment.
Samples of all equipment and solvents would be retained securely for later laboratory analysis.
The challenger and challenged would agree in advance on 10 or more mother tinctures that could be used in the test. Each of these candidate mother tinctures would need to be able to be prepared and diluted without the need for any "resting" of the solutions - the entire operation would need to be performed without interruption and under the full scrutiny and recording set forth in the protocol.
The challenger and challenged would agree in advance on the solvents that would be needed for the preparation and dilution of each of the candidate mother tinctures.
The challenger would bring to the test the non-solvent materials that would be needed for each of of the candidate mother tinctures.
The referee would procure sufficient laboratory-grade solvents for the preparation and dilution of any one of the candidate mother tinctures.
Once all of the materials and equipment for the preparation and dilution of any of the candidate mother tinctures have been secured, the challenged (e.g. JREF representative) would select the candidate mother tincture that will be prepared.
The homeopath would prepare the mother tincture and perform the dilutions in a sterile and secure environment that both parties have agreed upon. Equipment would be used only once. The entire procedure would occur without interruption and would be recorded and witnessed.
The solution that would be prepared would be 22C - "halfway" between the point at which the skeptics claim no atom of the active ingredient in the mother tincture is likely to be present (14C) and a high point at which homeopaths claim efficacy (30C).
The 22C solution would be securely transferred to a laboratory agreed upon by both parties. In addition, some number (e.g. 5) of solutions of identical appearance to the 22C solution and containing the same solvents in the same proportion as the 22C solution would be prepared and securely transferred to the lab. The referee would ensure double blinding.
Prior to the test, both parties would agree upon, for each candidate mother tincture, the elements or molecules whose discovery in the solution would constitute a success, as well as the assay methods that would be conducted in the laboratory.
The referee(s), other representatives of the challenged, and other representatives of the challenger, would witness the evaluation of the solutions at the laboratory. Only the referee(s) would know which of the candidate mother tinctures were prepared. All other witnesses and participants to the preparation and dilution of the mother tincture would be held incommunicado from the selection of which mother tincture to prepare through the conclusion of the laboratory testing.
The laboratory technicians would perform all of the agreed-upon tests on each of the solutions presented for testing (22C and the others) without knowing which solution was the 22C solution.
A success for the challenge would occur only if no fraud has been detected and at least one of the elements or molecules indicactive of the selected mother tincture is found in the 22C solution and none of the elements or molecules indicative of any of the candidate mother tinctures are found in any of the other solutions.
This is just a start on what I would insist upon for a protocol.
I doubt that it sounds as attractive as what you would propose.
May you get what you deserve for the fraud that you continue to commit.
Last edited:
Rasmus
Philosopher
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2005
- Messages
- 6,372
Definitely yes!
I would even make allowances for a machine based construction, so long as the machine could be examined prior to the process and, of course, it was certain that the machine would not contaminate the various mixtures.
Yes.
Forgive me for being pedantic, but as long as the choice was trly random, even a non-sceptic could perform it.
Good point indeed.
Why not just one? Or any that the challenger can produce with a mother tincture of his choice and the provided solvents? (e.g. water and alcohol)
I agree here; even thouhg it would be sufficient, if no prior agreement was reached on which tincture goes with which solvent.
If that is the case, and I agree that it should be, then there really is no need to agree on anything else about the combinations prior to the test, since you would have no control over what the challenger brings along.
There should be an additional requirment that each tincture is supplied in just one container, that no mixing of them is allowed at any point, and that there be a sufficiently large amount of it to prepare all the solutions and yet to retain enough material for later scrutiny.
More than that, even, so that the dummys can be produced later.
Pointless, since the challenger could just bring 10 identical preparations in different bottles. Let him chose what to start with.
Agreed. It may be neccesary that certain steps would be performed by trusted third parties, depending on the precise setup, though.
... or highter. I feel generous and wouldn't mind giving that advantage to the challenger.
[...]
I don't see the need for a lab-test. Wouldn't it be much simpler if the challenger could walk away with 20 bottles - 10 originals and 10 dummys - and would just have to nnounce which is which at a later point?
It does, of course, depend on whether the challenger wants to prove homeopathy or the existance of molecules (of the mother tincture, of course) in the final solution.
Rasmus.
DreadNiK
A typical atypical
- Joined
- Sep 13, 2005
- Messages
- 909
Unfortunately, it would seem they get what they don't deserve, i.e. money
Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Nap, interrupted.
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2001
- Messages
- 19,141
Dr. Sheikh, approximately how many molecules of the solute actually remain in a 14c dilution? Surely you agree that if it's only a few, that isn't going to have any therapeutic effect anyway. Or is there also solute memory contributing to the effect?
~~ Paul
~~ Paul
Dear Members,
It’s a great pleasure to be with Randiland’s intellectual personalities. I am really grateful to MRC_Hans for helping me in registering my account. Basically I am against in creating Homeopathic Skeptic Rooms at homeopathic sites because I believe that many people are already against homeopathy and this type of skeptic discussion at pure homeopathic forums will definitely discourage common people’ interest in wonderful homeopathic healing system of the world (who will visit the forum). But NCH has its own thinking and I have no influence over them.
This is my first post, hence I need little introduction. I have many professions but doing practice of homeopathic science is also my job. I have been in this field for more then 20 years. I am not coming here to protect homeopathy, you can do GOOGLE search on my name and see, I never protected homeopathy on its off beam unrealistic claims, rather I mainly behaved as skeptic in those forums. I got registration at this forum to find out what is skeptic stand on homeopathic medical system, so that we could all find the answer of the mystery involve in homeopathy.
My first question would be
“What exactly is the paranormal in homeopathy and why homeopathy is not acceptable as pure scientific medical healing system?â€
My students and me want to find the answer of those issues, which are in your mind.
I thank you to all of you of taking time and pain in reading my post.
Thanks again
Dear Dr. Mas,
I would like to let you know that I have got some grass-juice mix which I prepared about 5 days ago, for my grandma who had a stomach pain. She took a glass of my juice mix and felt better. She told her other friends at the rest home where she is at the moment about my juice mix, then 4 other elderly took some of the juice as well for different minor conditions (not stomach) and they claimed they felt better too. The 2 litre empty plastic coke bottle where I filled the juice was brought back by my brother from the rest home this morning for a refill when he visited grandma since the word has spread out in this rest home about the juice that it can cure all things from those residents at the rest home. My brother mentioned that grandma is going to charge $2 for a half a glass of grass-juice for any other elderly who wants to get a drink from her 2 litre coke bottle juice. I told my brother when I refilled the bottle, to tell grandma when he picked her up tomorrow for a birthday party of his youngest daughter, not to charge for the drink at all and she should share it with the other residents of the rest home. I made clear to my brother that if she starts charging, then I won't refill the bottle for her, ever.
There is no doubt in my mind that my grass-juice does some cure here, not only to grandma's stomach pain, but other minor conditions for the other elderly people at her resident. Since, I am not a homeopath and not interested at all in making this grass-juice to supply in the long term, I am proposing, if you would be keen to take over the manufacture of the grass-juice and distribute or even sell it to potential homeopathy practitioners. I don't want any royalties whatsoever from the juice or has anything to claim in terms of monetary benefits. All I want is that you give credit to my name as the inventor of this revolutionary grass-juice, by perhaps putting my name on the label of every bottle of grass-juice produced.
If you are interested in my proposal or perhaps you know of other homeopath practitioners that might be interested as well, then please use the forum to send me a private message so that we can discuss further. I can produce testimony from the number of elderly people at grandma's residents of how effective my grass-juice and also I can provide a very detail way regarding the procedures of how I made the grass-juice, so that anyone would be able to make the juice exactly as how I made it.
I decided that I must donate the recipes of my grass-juice free to any homeopath practitioner who would be keen to distribute it, because I believe that all humanity will benefit from my invention.
I am looking forward to your reply.
Regards,
sionep.
Last edited:
Dr. A Sheikh
Muse
- Joined
- May 18, 2005
- Messages
- 612
This is our headache not yours.
Dr. A Sheikh
Muse
- Joined
- May 18, 2005
- Messages
- 612
Our point is schwabe, boiron, ainsworth, www.bm-hp.com , www.kamallab.com , kent, www.masood.com.pk and all others have molecules in 14c potency otherthan ethanol + water. Because we know how they manufacture them.
Aepervius
Non credunt, semper verificare
No and I ahve got evidence
Even if this evidence is anedoctal.
The only stuff they are careful about is the description of what they sale. They play with word because due to consumer protection law they have to write down the composition of what they sell (and they do even if the common mortal can't read it or know what it really means), or what it is supposed to do (this is why they speak of treat / treatement and no healing, and they have disclaimer to go to a real doctor in case of symptom persistence).
My point is, they know they sell placebo, but they will never admit it because they earn billion with SUGAR !!! So your point of saying that they have molecule is patently false, they have NOTHING, and they are frekingly carefull in their white chamber not even to have dust or anything BUT sugar.
Even if this evidence is anedoctal.
. No they don't. I know people which work for such homeopathetic (misspelling intentional) firm, heck my mother used to work to Boiron although she was only responsible for filling order for material for the assembly lines, she had colleagues from the assembly line and marketing. My point is, everybody THERE, including the governement authorising the sale of homeopathic KNOWS with 100% surety , there is NOTHING except sugar beyond a certain point (even before your 14C), and there is NOTHING which can induce physiological changes except sugar (can't remmember what the exciptient is called). This is why they can pump various remedy without any governement authorisation, because you do not need any authorisation to sell sugar. AND EVERYBODY IN THOSE FIRM KNOW THAT FOR A FREAKING FACT.
The only stuff they are careful about is the description of what they sale. They play with word because due to consumer protection law they have to write down the composition of what they sell (and they do even if the common mortal can't read it or know what it really means), or what it is supposed to do (this is why they speak of treat / treatement and no healing, and they have disclaimer to go to a real doctor in case of symptom persistence).
My point is, they know they sell placebo, but they will never admit it because they earn billion with SUGAR !!! So your point of saying that they have molecule is patently false, they have NOTHING, and they are frekingly carefull in their white chamber not even to have dust or anything BUT sugar.
Aepervius
Non credunt, semper verificare
How and as of the machine they sell
Some friend came from Peter's (can't recall the correct name) which make medical supply, and later went to one of those firms. There they had nicknames for those machines (big vat which only made sugar pills). They called them candy distributor, sugar-cotton maker (machine a barbe a papa), jeux-de-sucre (untranslable, from jeux de main. Think sleight-of-sugar like sleight of hand). You get the drift.
No, I won't tell names, because he is still working there. But the point is, NOBODY involved in that industry in the big complex believe there is any substance in there. ONLY the "believer" do it.
Some friend came from Peter's (can't recall the correct name) which make medical supply, and later went to one of those firms. There they had nicknames for those machines (big vat which only made sugar pills). They called them candy distributor, sugar-cotton maker (machine a barbe a papa), jeux-de-sucre (untranslable, from jeux de main. Think sleight-of-sugar like sleight of hand). You get the drift.
No, I won't tell names, because he is still working there. But the point is, NOBODY involved in that industry in the big complex believe there is any substance in there. ONLY the "believer" do it.
Sheikh, I hate to disappoint you, but I do not think the JREF will accept homoeopathic solutions made by one of your paharmacies, because that would effectively not be a test if there are MT molecules left after serial dilutions to 14C, but a test of the quality of your pharmacy. I am also quite sure that solutions made by the Korsakov method will not be accepted because it is inherently impossible to tell how well solvent cleans out MT stuff that is left over from previous dilutions. IF you insist on using the Korsakov method, JREF might either reject it or demand that you use much higher dilutions than 14C.
While there are presumably no MT molecules left in Korsakov remedies produced by the pharmacies, I do not think it can be termed paranormal if there are. It would then just be poor quality products made with a method that makes quality control difficult.
Another point that has been raised before: If the Korsakov method does not clean out the vials properly so that there are MT molecules left, does that mean that Korsakov preparations are better or worse than Hahnemannian preparations? If the presence of MT molecules is important, why not just stop the dilutions before the last MT molecules are flushed out?