What if - Al Gore had won the 2000 election?

[Cicero]

If you had actually seen the movie, you would have known that Michael Moore said the Saudi's were asked a few questions. They were treated with kid gloves. Contrast this to the fate of many others from the Middle East after 9/11.

Perhaps you should read "Fifty-nine Deceits in Fahrenheit 9/11 by Dave Kopel. The point about snopes.com is that website owners Barbara and David Mikkelson had to retract and revise what they said about Moore's comments.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x291976

Upchurch posted snopes.com as evidence that what AlGore said about creating the internet was debunked. Except that snopes admits AlGore said what he said, but snopes attempts to finesse his comment as just a clumsy statement. This is another example of snopes editorializing.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Gore won the national popular vote, not the election. For Gore to have won the election then the established rules would have to have been broken by the Supreme Court.

Bush won Florida, it really is that simple, the only way you can say that Gore "might" have won is by counting every over and under vote as a vote for Gore.

The Supreme Court decision did not rely on the result of the Florida vote. It actually just handed it to Bush.

The first independent audit of the Florida election (done by the Miami Herald) said that Gore in fact won. That's the information I was relying on. I hadn't read about the other independent counts, but now I see that in most of them Bush actually did win Florida. The Supreme Court, however, did not have this information when they made their decision effectively handing the office to Bush.

 

[Prometheus]

The Supreme Court decision did not rely on the result of the Florida vote. It actually just handed it to Bush.

The first independent audit of the Florida election (done by the Miami Herald) said that Gore in fact won. That's the information I was relying on. I hadn't read about the other independent counts, but now I see that in most of them Bush actually did win Florida. The Supreme Court, however, did not have this information when they made their decision effectively handing the office to Bush.

Regardless of what information SCOTUS had or not, they acted improperly. Constitutionally, the decision should have rested with the Florida State Legislature, which, being heavily Republican controlled at the time, would have given the win to Bush anyway.

 

[Brainster]

Did you go wild when Snopes reported this about Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 9/11?

"The lengthy analysis that follows, though, shows that Moore was incorrect on his major, crucial points: the Saudis left after airports reopened, and after being questioned by the FBI."

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/flights.asp

Snopes has since scrubbed that page of all references to Michael Moore. I remember reading the original years ago, then their suck-up apology over the claimed Tampa flight, and now the latest version ignores his movie spreading the lie while at least debunking the claim.

 

[gdnp]

Did you go wild when Snopes reported this about Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 9/11?

"The lengthy analysis that follows, though, shows that Moore was incorrect on his major, crucial points: the Saudis left after airports reopened, and after being questioned by the FBI."

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/flights.aspI am unable to admit that I am wrong, to let me try to derail the thread instead

Fixed it for you.

 

[Gangularis]

Snopes has since scrubbed that page of all references to Michael Moore. I remember reading the original years ago, then their suck-up apology over the claimed Tampa flight, and now the latest version ignores his movie spreading the lie while at least debunking the claim.

Probably scrubbed it because the assertion made in the snopes article is not the assertion that michael moore made in his movie.

http://www.michaelmoore.com/books-films/f911reader/index.php?id=17

"Two days after the Sept. 11 attacks, with most of the nation's air traffic still grounded, a small jet landed at Tampa International Airport, picked up three young Saudi men and left. The men, one of them thought to be a member of the Saudi royal family, were accompanied by a former FBI agent and a former Tampa police officer on the flight to Lexington, Ky. The Saudis then took another flight out of the country.”

 

[Slimething]

The real problem is what is so wrong with our political system that we had these two to choose from? The 2000 and 2004 presidential elections gave me dyspepsia. It reminded me of a pithy remark in the Philadelphia Inquirer during one of that city's mayoral races:
"This is not about the lesser of two evils as much as the evil of two lessers."

To answer the question, I despise Gore because he's always been of a pseudo-scientific bent. After the disaster that Bush was, Gore probably would have made a better president but I believe he may also have plumbed unexplored depths of incompetence during his tenure(s).

Uselss speculation, really, but fun.

 

[Whiplash]

Hatred of Bush! Of course! That's why people opposed the Iraq war!

How have I been so blind? Why didn't I see this before?

(snip)

Even as I had predicted it would happen, I still end up with a ridicule based assault.

I can't say I'm surprised though, considering the source. You really are a one trick pony Dr.A. It's all you ever bring to the table. Ridicule and satire and marginalization of people you disagree with. No substance.

Not trying to educate on anything. Not trying to help. Not trying to teach. Not trying to be friendly.

If you disagree with them, you just insult and belittle and snark away.

I honestly have no idea what it is that garners you the level of respect that you have. Maybe at one time you were a brilliant, warm and friendly teacher and purveyuor or knowledge, and have earned the right since then to sit back and belittle and ridicule... from your throne. I guess I missed those early days.

But I see no reason to engage you in discourse on any level, as you are completely rude, insulting, and disrepectful. I think it's been said to you a million times, but you are clearly clueless about it, or just don't give a damn. But it makes you look more the fool than the person you are insulting.

To steal a line from you, any fantasies you may have about myself and my own life are irrelevant to me, don't bother to share them.

 

[Rolfe]

Mmmm. However, one has to distinguish between a pre-existing dislike (or even hatred, if you like) of Bush being the reason why his actions were criticised, and a dislike of Bush which was not pre-existing, but which developed as a result of observation of his actions.

It's too easy to dismiss all criticism of Bush as being merely fuelled by irrational dislike. The possibility that the dislike may be rational because his actions were very much open to criticism has to be admitted.

Rolfe.

 

[Cicero]

Fixed it for you.

Ah yes, the hallmarks of a gdnp repair job. When it ain't broke don't fix it. Do you think the recording of AlGore saying "I created the internet" is a hoax?

 

[Dr Adequate]

(snip)

Even as I had predicted it would happen, I still end up with a ridicule based assault.

I can't say I'm surprised though, considering the source. You really are a one trick pony Dr.A. It's all you ever bring to the table. Ridicule and satire and marginalization of people you disagree with. No substance.

Not trying to educate on anything. Not trying to help. Not trying to teach. Not trying to be friendly.

If you disagree with them, you just insult and belittle and snark away.

I honestly have no idea what it is that garners you the level of respect that you have. Maybe at one time you were a brilliant, warm and friendly teacher and purveyuor or knowledge, and have earned the right since then to sit back and belittle and ridicule... from your throne. I guess I missed those early days.

But I see no reason to engage you in discourse on any level, as you are completely rude, insulting, and disrepectful. I think it's been said to you a million times, but you are clearly clueless about it, or just don't give a damn. But it makes you look more the fool than the person you are insulting.

To steal a line from you, any fantasies you may have about myself and my own life are irrelevant to me, don't bother to share them.

You claim to have no wish to "engage in discourse" with me, and in many ways it could be said that you have succeeded. But I would suggest that this goal could have been achieved with greater economy, and less embarrassment to yourself, by not posting anything.

 

[Upchurch]

Even as I had predicted it would happen, I still end up with a ridicule based assault.

You also received some respectful and thought out responses. You might do better to focus on those.

 

[Brainster]

Probably scrubbed it because the assertion made in the snopes article is not the assertion that michael moore made in his movie.

http://www.michaelmoore.com/books-films/f911reader/index.php?id=17

"Two days after the Sept. 11 attacks, with most of the nation's air traffic still grounded, a small jet landed at Tampa International Airport, picked up three young Saudi men and left. The men, one of them thought to be a member of the Saudi royal family, were accompanied by a former FBI agent and a former Tampa police officer on the flight to Lexington, Ky. The Saudis then took another flight out of the country.”

Moore made the flights of the Bin Laden family the opening focus of his trailer:



It's pretty obvious that at best Moore was being deceptive with that opening. You may say that technically he's not lying, but he's deliberately leaving a false impression.

 

[Kestrel]

Moore made the flights of the Bin Laden family the opening focus of his trailer:



It's pretty obvious that at best Moore was being deceptive with that opening. You may say that technically he's not lying, but he's deliberately leaving a false impression.

After 9/11, our nation treated people from the Middle East in two different ways. If you were a wealthy Saudi, we bent over backwards to help. If you were not a wealthy Saudi you were treated as a potential terrorist. Considering that the man behind the 9/11 attack came from a wealthy Saudi family, it was all rather strange.

Moore wasn't giving a false impression when he pointed this out.

 

[Just thinking]

That isn't correct.

The Media Consortium Florida Ballot Project found that if all Florida ballots had been counted using consistent standards, Gore would have won the election. No matter what standard for counting votes was used.

Rather than dimples or not-dimples, the deciding factor in the recount was inclusion of all ballots or only a subset of ballots. And the deciding line was very simple – if all of the ballots were counted there were enough potential Al Gore votes to give him a victory, but any smaller subset of ballots would retain or even enlarge George W. Bush’s margin.

Pardon me, but that quote taken from the link seems to be logically and mathematically invalid --- self-contradicting, in fact. "Any smaller subset" is equivalent to saying "every smaller subset" ... hence, every subset of the total ballot count puts President Bush in the lead. How can it therefore be possible for Gore to have won, given the claim? Surely at least one subset of ballots must have Gore winning more votes for that to happen --- but as it says . . .

 

[gdnp]

Ah yes, the hallmarks of a gdnp repair job. When it ain't broke don't fix it. Do you think the recording of AlGore saying "I created the internet" is a hoax?

I see wrong people...and they don't know they are wrong...

No, I just missed the part where he said he invented the internet. In fact, I missed the part where he said he created the internet. Words have meaning, you know. "I took the initiative in creating the internet" does not mean the same thing as "I created the internet" which does not mean the same thing as "I invented the internet". The expressions are not, alas, interchangeable. Which is why I said, in my original post "I think they live next to the people with the tape of him claiming to have invented the internet". Do you have such a youtube clip? No? Then why are you wasting your time trying to disprove something I never said? Were they running a special on straw on Planet X?

 

[Gangularis]

Moore made the flights of the Bin Laden family the opening focus of his trailer:



It's pretty obvious that at best Moore was being deceptive with that opening. You may say that technically he's not lying, but he's deliberately leaving a false impression.

You do know what trailer is... right?? Seems kind of deceptive of you to talk about it as if it's the opening of his movie.. Not that that should even matter if that's how he chose to open his movie or his trailer..

 

[Kestrel]

Pardon me, but that quote taken from the link seems to be logically and mathematically invalid --- self-contradicting, in fact. "Any smaller subset" is equivalent to saying "every smaller subset" ... hence, every subset of the total ballot count puts President Bush in the lead. How can it therefore be possible for Gore to have won, given the claim? Surely at least one subset of ballots must have Gore winning more votes for that to happen --- but as it says . . .

They are referring to the subsets of ballots described in the document. Such as only recounting the counties originally request by Gore.

 

[Kestrel]

I see wrong people...and they don't know they are wrong...

No, I just missed the part where he said he invented the internet. In fact, I missed the part where he said he created the internet. Words have meaning, you know. "I took the initiative in creating the internet" does not mean the same thing as "I created the internet" which does not mean the same thing as "I invented the internet". The expressions are not, alas, interchangeable. Which is why I said, in my original post "I think they live next to the people with the tape of him claiming to have invented the internet". Do you have such a youtube clip? No? Then why are you wasting your time trying to disprove something I never said? Were they running a special on straw on Planet X?

Gore also put it in the context of his Congressional duties. At a time when few recognized the importance of computer networks, he was the guy pushing to fund them.

 

[Just thinking]

They are referring to the subsets of ballots described in the document. Such as only recounting the counties originally request by Gore.

OK ... but that then still makes it above board, as it was Gore's choice.