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What Evidence Would Be Sufficient To Prove Reincarnation?

It's not such an uncommon thing, having once believed in something and then abandoning that belief. People like Michael Shermer and Derren Brown were both once devout Christians and I doubt you'd call them anything but real skeptics. Also, they explore the paranormal with a balanced and unbiased attitude to see if there's anything to it and to enlighten people when their findings show there isn't.

Can't you see you're being a bully?

"Is he talking to me?" Yes, I'm talking to whomever the shoe fits.
 
Is it always this way on this forum? My first day here was yesterday, so I don't know. Is it par to attack and belittle and to accuse people of not meaning what they say?
Unfortunately, it is not altogether uncommon that new members start threads pretending to be a skeptic trying to debunk something and it turns out (after many pages and much frustration by the other members here) that the poster is actually a believer with an agenda trying to convert or trick skeptics.

Therefore, when a new member starts such a thread and does not provide a link or specifics about the discussion that they are trying to debunk, and does not contribute their own knowledge and their own skeptical thoughts, and criticizes responses that contribute to the ability to debunk something, or tries to play devil’s advocate to further the discussion, and the line of reasoning tends to veer toward debunking the skeptics rather than debunking the claim, then some members become…um…skeptical of the poster’s intentions.

Hopefully this is not what you are trying to do, but the nature of this thread sort of fits the typical profile, so it is natural for some members to become suspicious.
 
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Okay, DevilsAdvocate. I'm sorry. I didn't know that was a common occurence. That would be *********** annoying. Like someone pretending to be interested in you and then they actually want to sell you something.

Thanks for clearing that up. Of course, I've already insulted a few more people while you wrote that, but...
 
Marduk, I once did believe in reincarnation, yes, and studied it, but the logical flaws made me stop believing in it. When I did believe in it, I didn't find the theories behind how it supposedly might work sensible at all.

What experiment?

Pretend that you believe in a reincarnation experience, pretend that you believe in an immortal soul and try to debunk it yourself using only whats currently available on the net.

Remember you can't use logical flaws, because to the true believer they are non existent.

you can't use science because science doesn't cover that type of subjective paranormal experience

and you can't use the disbelief of others because you know better
;)

how far would you get ?
 
Marduk, I don't quite get what your saying. I think it's a bit over my head. I know this isn't the right place to admit intellectual shortcomings, but I don't really get all that.

Sorry.
 
Marduk, I don't quite get what your saying. I think it's a bit over my head. I know this isn't the right place to admit intellectual shortcomings, but I don't really get all that.

Sorry.

Simply put yourself in the position of a believer
and try to debunk your own belief
that should teach you the most effective way of debunking the belief of others
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia
;)
 
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Logical flaw is not important .. many accepted laws of nature are not logical or were not logical when they were discovered. Verification is the only tool needed for telling the true from fallacy.
As for reincarnation, I would want trans-life information exchange. That alone would be something paranormal. But it would not prove reincarnation itself. For example something like time independent telepathy would allow that too. Reincarnation is not only memories of some people who died .. it also must be one man (or different being, based on reincarnation type) at a time, and there is also karmic causality. Acts of being in previous lives affects it's current condition.
So there is in fact a lot to prove. But as I said .. trans-life information exchange would be enough for me. It would have to be well controlled test of course.
 
So there is in fact a lot to prove. But as I said .. trans-life information exchange would be enough for me. It would have to be well controlled test of course.

How would you conduct such a test ?
 
Is it always this way on this forum? My first day here was yesterday, so I don't know. Is it par to attack and belittle and to accuse people of not meaning what they say?

It can be somewhat rough, but more along the lines of "That doesn't make sense, say it better before we answer" than "You're an idiot."

The method seen here is quite legitimate, but can be offputting, especially to those who aren't used to a discussion where terms must be defined before being discussed. Those who are accustomed to debating this way sometimes forget how contrary to ordinary discourse the method appears to outsiders. Regulars also sometimes forget that not everyone has studied propositional logic.

All that said, if the goal is arriving at truth, dialectic in general is more useful than polemic or rhetoric.

For comparison's sake, consider how a math professor might respond when a student says, "Yeah, I get x must be 2 if x + 2 = 4, but what if '2' is made of thingummies, and x is a framjit, and '4' is really 7?"

A very polite professor might scratch his head and ask the student to explain. Most wouldn't bother -- which the student might consider rude or belittling. It's not so much that the question is meaningless that bothers the professor and the rest of the class, but that the student doesn't appear to know it.

In this particular case, you've been asking what evidence would convince a skeptic that reincarnation exists. The problem is that there isn't a well-known definition of 'reincarnation' precise enough to use for casual conversation, let alone logical analysis. So the polite posters here have asked you to specify exactly what you mean. Some have offered suggestions about reducing the problem, while others have assumed you meant various different things and answered as if you'd asked those questions instead.

The simplest answer is that reincarnation doesn't exist, so therefore there cannot exist a proof that would satisfy anyone. From this starting point, you can whittle away at what you mean by reincarnation until you arrive at something that might exist, and then examine what proofs would be necessary for that.

Several posters have leaped down the road in front of you and checked all the garden gates, concluding that unless you change paths, there simply isn't a door available. Others have pointed out the various bits you will need to examine in order to start whittling away at the beginning term.

If you want to be honest in your approach, you must first settle the question you want answered, then ask it as clearly and succintly as you can. The answers you get may or may not be helpful, but at least they'll stand a better chance of addressing your question.

If I were you, I'd start with something very simple: What objective evidence exists that any aspect of personal identity survives death? If the answer is 'none,' then you're done. If the answer is that something survives, you can then proceed to wondering about its nature, location, mode of travel, means of identification, meaning, and so forth. Until then, all the rest of the speculation and argumentation is meaningless.
 
Someone would have to come with information he could not obtain other way. It would be best if it was information no-one living is supposed to have. Like 'there was temple here .. it had cellar .. there was secret root there .. I put a note there' .. then someone would try to dig .. and find it all exactly as described. It would have to be proven that it was not faked. Problem you would need several such things to be sure it's not based on some written record or something.
Anyway, many Tibetan lamas talk exactly about such things happening all the time. If few of them would tell us skeptics before they go digging, it would be most interesting.
 
So, since I'm not credible, should I leave the forum now?
I don;t think you have been branded as a troll yet.

Marduk, I don't quite get what your saying. I think it's a bit over my head. I know this isn't the right place to admit intellectual shortcomings, but I don't really get all that.
This is fine place to admit intellectual shortcomings. (Although, this is not the right place to bluff intellectual...um...longcomings(?)).

I think Marduk was saying that, because you can't disprove a negative (you can't prove that there is NOT an invisible pink unicorn), that if you start with the belief then you are stuck in that "belief" box with no way out. The only way out is with occam's razor. There is no need to disprove something that is improvable because there is no need to believe in it in the first place.

I, however, believe that there is justification to explicitly deny reincarnation based on the how theory arose and the reasons why it became irrelevant. Resurrecting the concept is as valuable as resurrecting the concepts of the four humors or the aether. ;)
 
I think Marduk was saying that, because you can't disprove a negative (you can't prove that there is NOT an invisible pink unicorn), that if you start with the belief then you are stuck in that "belief" box with no way out. The only way out is with occam's razor. There is no need to disprove something that is improvable because there is no need to believe in it in the first place.

Occams razor in reincarnation

on one side you have the known facts about the impossibility of reincarnation, on the other you have a subjective experience which is utterly convincing and has no other ready explanation to hand.

Occams razor never trumps belief, no matter how irrational the belief, if it did, creationism wouldn't exist

;)
 
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Marduk, I once did believe in reincarnation, yes, and studied it, but the logical flaws made me stop believing in it. When I did believe in it, I didn't find the theories behind how it supposedly might work sensible at all.

So let me get this straight, you claim that:
  • you believed in reincarnation and studied it (apparently for 15 years)
  • you discovered some logical flaws that made you lose your belief
  • you didn't find the theories behind it sensible

You have also claimed:
  • you don't have a definition of reincarnation - contradicted by i)
  • you have no idea how it's supposed to work - contradicted by iii)
  • you don't have arguments to persuade "reincarnationists" - contradicted by ii) and iii)

I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt. I still am. You're just making it too hard.
 
Logical flaw is not important .. many accepted laws of nature are not logical or were not logical when they were discovered. Verification is the only tool needed for telling the true from fallacy.
As for reincarnation, I would want trans-life information exchange. That alone would be something paranormal. But it would not prove reincarnation itself. For example something like time independent telepathy would allow that too. Reincarnation is not only memories of some people who died .. it also must be one man (or different being, based on reincarnation type) at a time, and there is also karmic causality. Acts of being in previous lives affects it's current condition.
So there is in fact a lot to prove. But as I said .. trans-life information exchange would be enough for me. It would have to be well controlled test of course.

Spot the odd one out.
 
I would assume the "Dr. Joseph Bell" affect. The person probably has some knowledge of dressmaking and from the outer appearance of the dress was able to make logical conclusions about the interior of the dress.

Yes, exactly. I've studied enough mid-19th century clothing that I know which details are nearly universal and which varied greatly, even among unrelated clothes. And there are people who've done far more work than me.

But it would take someone who knows what clues are give-aways and what aren't. For example, when I saw the dress, I could tell it was made in the late 1850s, a period I knew something about. If it looked 1820s or 1890s, I wouldn't even have attempted it.

So when I hear archaeological or historical examples of past life memories, I always figure that even if it sounds way out of the odds to me, there are things I can do for other time periods that would sound way out of the odds for someone else. I think people really don't give enough credit to the intuition (not quite the right word) of experts (again, not quite the right word).

And the problem is that a lot of learning can take place in private. Who's going to find out if a parent has coached a kid or a kid or adult has spent time on the computer looking at stuff? And we're talking about people of normal intelligence. Not somebody with savant-like ability to remember or memorize. Imagine what they could do. And it certainly doesn't have to be deliberate fraud. An honest belief and self-induced false memories would work as well.
 
Iaca, maybe I'm too eager to accomodate people, but I want to know what I can do to convince you that I
1) used to believe in reincarnation
2) don't anymore
3) believed it without really having a plausible explanation for it, or a theory of any kind

That's the problem with belief, you know, it's not rational. When you stop believing, you can't see what made you believe, because it was never based on reason.

I didn't admit I used to believe in reincarnation because I didn't want people to hate me, but I might as well admit it now when everybody hates me anyway.

Thomas

ETA: Marduk kind of made up the number fifteen years, but I've read a lot of books and so forth for some years back.
 
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Is it always this way on this forum? My first day here was yesterday, so I don't know.

Your registration date reads Apr 2009. That means you've been lurking for more than a year now. Which would mean you've had plenty of time to feel out the environment, so to speak.

One other possibility is that it's not your account.

The first makes you, well, at least terminally forgetful. The second one would get you banned. There might be other alternatives as well.

Is it par to attack and belittle and to accuse people of not meaning what they say?

Do you really want to explore the realities behind that phrase?
 
Okay, DevilsAdvocate. I'm sorry. I didn't know that was a common occurence. That would be *********** annoying. Like someone pretending to be interested in you and then they actually want to sell you something.

Thanks for clearing that up. Of course, I've already insulted a few more people while you wrote that, but...

"...but instead of apologizing, I'll just go right ahead and insult some more?" :rolleyes:
 

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