What Evidence Would Be Sufficient To Prove Reincarnation?

[Pup]

I'm still wondering about where all the new souls come from.

You mean the usual thing about there being more people alive on the earth today than before?

That always seems so easily answerable that I can't figure out why reincarnationists don't immediately reply or why unbelievers even bother to ask. I mean, I don't believe in reincarnation at all, but still have no trouble coming up with the answer on a simple mathematical basis: less of an average wait time in between reincarnations.

Though come to think about it, what I haven't heard is a lot of theories about how the souls got created in the first place. It's funny how the origin myth is such a huge cultural marker in some beliefs, like fundamental Christians with intelligent design, while it barely makes a ripple in others, like the pseudo-scientific new-age style of reincarnation beliefs. Though actually, that would be explained by my reincarnation hypothesis, that the belief stems from a neurological experience of deja vu, false memories or something similar, so the focus is on explaining the sensation of memory and not on explaining the original creation of souls.

 

[Vitor Moura]

In seventh-rate journals everywhere. And then torn into tiny shreds because the standards of evidence were insufficient for a remedial pre-school show-and-tell class.

Show references, please.

Harris says that not having studied the data he cannot categorically dismiss those claims. Those who have studied the data can and do categorically dismiss those claims, because the claims are imply unsupported by the data.

Arthur C. Clarke studied the data and he do not categorically dismiss those claims.

Dr. Stevenson, has done a lot of papers on that, and has produced studies of about 50 cases that are hard to explain. But the problem with reincarnation is that it’s hard to imagine what the storage medium for past lives would be. Not to mention the input-output device. I hesitate to rule it out completely, but I’d need pretty definite proof.

Source: http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/clarke_19_2.html, ou Free Inquiry magazine, Volume 19, Number 2.

Has the field of paranormal research been stigmatized? Sure.

Is this unfair? No. Paranormal research should, at this point, be given no more consideration than Flat-Earth research. It is an utter failure and a disgrace to almost all of those involved.

Do you know any Flat-Earth research published in scientific journals in these days? No? If not, I think you're using a false analogy.

 

[PixyMisa]

Show references, please.

Why? That's rather your job, isn't it?

Show me a paper that isn't seventh-rate and shredded, and we can proceed from there.

Arthur C. Clarke studied the data and he do not categorically dismiss those claims.

So? Perhaps he should have.

Dr. Stevenson, has done a lot of papers on that, and has produced studies of about 50 cases that are hard to explain. But the problem with reincarnation is that it’s hard to imagine what the storage medium for past lives would be. Not to mention the input-output device. I hesitate to rule it out completely, but I’d need pretty definite proof.

If your strongest argument is quoting some guys, two thirds of whom are dead, who didn't categorically dismiss the entire field, then you have a problem.

Do you know any Flat-Earth research published in scientific journals in these days? No? If not, I think you're using a false analogy.

No, it's entirely apt. There is no reincarnation research published in scientific journals these days either. There is research going on. It's not science, and it doesn't get published in scientific journals.

 

[Akhenaten]

Arthur C. Clarke studied the data and he do not categorically dismiss those claims.

Jules Verne studied the data and didn't categorically dismiss the claims of a route from Snæfellsjökull to the centre of the Earth.

 

[Vitor Moura]

There is no reincarnation research published in scientific journals these days either. There is research going on. It's not science, and it doesn't get published in scientific journals.

01 - The phenomenon of claimed memories of previous lives: possible interpretations and importance (2000) Medical Hypotheses 54(4), 652-659

02 - An Unusual Birthmark Case Thought to be Linked to a Person Who Had Previously Died (2000) Psychological Reports 87:1067-1074 Dr. Jürgen Keil and Dr. Jim B. Tucker.

03 - Psychological Characteristics of Children Who Speak of a Previous Life: A Further Field Study in Sri Lanka (2000) Transcultural Psychiatry 37: 525 - 544

04 - Ropelike Birthmarks on Children Who Claim to Remember Past Lives (2001 Aug) Psychological Reports 2001 Aug 89 (1):142-144 Ian Stevenson

05 - Are Children with Imaginary Playmates and Children Said to Remember Previous Lives Cross-Culturally Comparable Categories? Transcultural Psychiatry (March 2003), Vol. 40, No. 1, 62-90Antonia Mills

06 - Children who speak of past-life experiences: Is there a psychological explanation? Psychology and psychotherapy-theory Research and Practice 76: 55-67 Part 1 MAR 2003 Erlendur Haraldsson

07 - Paranormal phenomena in the medical literature sufficient smoke to warrant a search for fire (2003) Med Hypotheses 2003, Vol. 60(6) p.864-868 Bobrow, R. S.;

08 - Cases of the Reincarnation Type with Memories from the Intermission Between Lives (2005) Journal of Near-Death Studies 23(2):101-118 Poonam Sharma e Dr. Jim B. Tucker

09 - Reincarnation, sect unity, and identity among the druze. Ethnology, 45(2): 87-104 (March 2006) Anne Bennett

10 - Back from Death: Young Adults in Northern India Who as Children Were Said to Remember a Previous Life, with or without a Shift in Religion (Hindu to Moslem or Vice Versa) Anthropology & Humanism December 2006, Vol. 31, No. 2, pp. 141-156 Antonia Mills

11 - Children's Reports of Past-Life Memories: A Review Explore: The Journal of Science and Healing July 2008 (Vol. 4, Issue 4, Pages 244-248) Jim B. Tucker

12 - Myth of reincarnation: a challenge for mental health profession. J Med Ethics. 2009 Feb; 35(2): 91. Gadit AA.

 

[Vitor Moura]

Jules Verne studied the data and didn't categorically dismiss the claims of a route from Snæfellsjökull to the centre of the Earth.

Jules Verne was not a scientist.

 

[Akhenaten]

<some books>

That looks to me like a heap of research into people who believe in reincarnation, not the thing itself.

Which of those references presents studies of actual reincarnation?

 

[Akhenaten]

Jules Verne was not a scientist.

No he was science fiction writer, and Arthur C. Clarke was . . . ?

 

[Vitor Moura]

That looks to me like a heap of research into people who believe in reincarnation, not the thing itself.

Which of those references presents studies of actual reincarnation?

Many of them. The last one, for example, says:

Recently, a case was presented in the psychiatric out-patient clinic with the following description: ‘‘A young boy aged 12, visited India recently along with his parents on vacation. While visiting a city, he expressed his familiarity with it and claimed that he had spent a number of years in this city. The parents were taken aback as this was his first visit to this part of the world. The boy, went on by narrating events about his past life, he identified a house where he claimed to have lived in and described the entire inner structure of the house. The local residents confirmed the existence of such a family about 30 years ago. Since this visit, [the boy] has been disturbed emotionally, he has recurrent dreams about his supposed previous life,
cannot identify himself with his parents and is preoccupied with thoughts of a previous life’’.

(...)

Few scientists have worked on this issue and brought forward a number of explanations, such as matching of memories because of a violent or untimely death, selective thinking and false memories secondary to own belief system, implantation of memories through cells of degeneration of buried dead bodies affecting pregnant women passing through grave yards who may inhale dust carrying such cells. These may also be certain types of memory errors, according to a new study. Of course, more research is needed in order to understand this phenomenon. However, this particular case posed a real challenge. His history and examination of mental state did not lead to any diagnostic category. The only finding was that of anxiety related to his supposed ‘‘previous life memory’’. A multidisciplinary team approach was applied and a religious person (an Imam) was invited for his input and possible help if deemed necessary. It is important to mention that all ethical principles were followed. The religious man was somewhat helpful with this case; a little help was available through prescribing an anxiolytic for a defined short-term duration. The major help came through psychotherapeutic input. The child was helped through client-centred approach and play therapy. The client’s fears and confusion were explored. An insightful approach was adopted by reassuring him that there was no doubt about the truth in his history, it was emphasised that many phenomena are unexplained and so one must simply accept things as they are, encouragement for finding the meaning of this experience in a therapeutic milieu was promoted and it was assured that ‘‘maybe everyone has past lives—the only difference is that you can remember yours’’.
Though the client has come to terms with his dilemma, the past life memories still haunt him. Spiritual input may of significant help in some cases like this and it is worthwhile availing such services in the management of cases, which is inline with the added spiritual model in defining mental health in totality.

 

[Vitor Moura]

No he was science fiction writer, and Arthur C. Clarke was . . . ?

He was an inventor too, and worked with scientists.

In 1945, a UK periodical magazine “Wireless World” published his landmark technical paper "Extra-terrestrial Relays" in which he first set out the principles of satellite communication with satellites in geostationary orbits - a speculation realized 25 years later. During the evolution of his discovery, he worked with scientists and engineers in the USA in the development of spacecraft and launch systems, and addressed the United Nations during their deliberations on the Peaceful Uses of Outer Space.

http://www.clarkefoundation.org/acc/biography.php

 

[Sledge]

That's one of the most vague, pathetic anecdotes I've ever heard provided as evidence. Boy goes to India, makes up story about living there, and is now going through adolescence. Pathetic.

 

[Mirrorglass]

I understand it was Vitor's goal to provide evidence that the phenomenon of reincarnation is being legitimately studied as more than a delusion, not that the phenomenon actually is more than a delusion.

He fails in both regards, of course. But still.

 

[Akhenaten]

That looks to me like a heap of research into people who believe in reincarnation, not the thing itself.

Which of those references presents studies of actual reincarnation?

Many of them. The last one, for example, says:

<snip>

Fail.

No he was science fiction writer, and Arthur C. Clarke was . . . ?

He was an inventor too, and worked with scientists.

Twice.

 

[Vitor Moura]

Reference 11 says:

Researchers have studied young children’s reports of past-life memories for the last 45 years. The children usually describe a recent, ordinary life, and many of them have given enough details so that one particular deceased individual has been identified to match the children’s statements. These cases occur worldwide, and although they are easiest to find in cultures with a belief in reincarnation, many cases have been found in the West as well. This review explores the facets of this phenomenon and presents several recent American cases.

(...)

CONCLUSION
Stevenson wrote that he had become persuaded that “reincarnation is the best—even though not the only—explanation for the stronger cases we have investigated.”17(p254) Reincarnation is a word that has various associations connected to it, but regardless of the terminology used, the cases do seem to provide evidence that memories, emotions, and even physical traumas can, at least under certain circumstances, carry over from one life to another. The processes that would be involved in such a transfer of consciousness are completely unknown, and they await further elucidation.

 

[PixyMisa]

Yes, The Journal of Science and Healing is exactly the sort of seventh-rate pseudo-scientific "journal" I was referring to.

 

[Vitor Moura]

Yes, The Journal of Science and Healing is exactly the sort of seventh-rate pseudo-scientific "journal" I was referring to.

Impact factor of New Scientist: 0.226 (JCR-2008)

Impact factor of The Journal of Science and Healing: 0.712 (JCR-2008)

Impact factor of Medical Hypotheses: 1.416 (JCR-2008)

 

[Dr.Sid]

Which reminds me of another common claim .. small kid speaking foreign language, often during sleep, describing some disturbing experience, like from war.

 

[Rodney]

Impact factor of New Scientist: 0.226 (JCR-2008)

Impact factor of The Journal of Science and Healing: 0.712 (JCR-2008)

Impact factor of Medical Hypotheses: 1.416 (JCR-2008)

I'm sure that our colleagues will turn up their noses at these journals as well, but pretty obviously radical ideas will not initially be supported in mainstream scientific publications. Consider what the January 13, 1905 Scientific American had to say about the Wright Brothers' "Aeroplane and its Fabled Performance":

"It seems that these alleged experiments were made at Dayton, Ohio, a fairly large town, and that the newspapers of the United States, alert as they are, allowed these sensational performances to escape their notice . . . If such sensational and tremendously important experiments are being conducted in a not very remote part of the country, on a subject in which almost everybody feels the most profound interest, is it possible to believe that the enterprising American reporter, who, it is well known, comes down the chimney when the door is locked in his face--even if he has to scale a fifteen-story sky-scraper to do so-- would not have ascertained all about them and published them broadcast long ago?"
See http://invention.psychology.msstate.edu/inventors/i/Wrights/library/WrightSiAm1.html

 

[caniswalensis]

" implantation of memories through cells of degeneration of buried dead bodies affecting pregnant women passing through grave yards who may inhale dust carrying such cells. "

 

[PixyMisa]

Impact factor of New Scientist: 0.226 (JCR-2008)

Impact factor of The Journal of Science and Healing: 0.712 (JCR-2008)

Impact factor of Medical Hypotheses: 1.416 (JCR-2008)

Yes. And?

New Scientist is a popular science magazine, once quite a good one, now not so much. It is not a peer-reviewed journal.

The Journal of Science and Healing could most charitably be described as "a pseudo-scientific semiliterate hack rag".